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30860 'Lord Hawke'

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Taunton

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How bizarre! So the book is saying that the crew taking over at Salisbury, having to check over the locomotive - oiling and greasing? Anything else required? - took longer than having to uncouple, take the first loco off, change the road for the new loco, couple up and do a brake test (presumably)?

Well, it seems bizarre to me. Makes me wonder if there were some other reason? Perhaps the crews did not like taking over a locomotive for another 85-mile run. Difficult to access coal in the tender, perhaps, by the end? And they thus found good reason to 'check the locomotive thoroughly - sorry about the time needed' when working through?

On a rather off-topic tangent, this thread has made me wonder why the SR built so many Schools - I think it was 40 engines? (Nothing personal, I liked the Schools, just to make this clear, although I only consciously saw two working in BR days.)

But as I understand it, they were primarily built for the Hastings line. OK, fair enough - but those services surely would only need 12-15 engines, 18 at the very most, to cover those duties. Why build more of a complicated (ie 3-cylinder loco) of 5P rating when there was a low-cost, 2-cylinder King Arthur 5P design, with jigs and all tooling already available. And with a greater proportion of adhesive weight on the drivers than the 4-4-0?

Perhaps one of those questions to which the answers are lost in time, or in the graves of one Maunsell, Locomotive Engineer, RIP.
The principal thing that took time at Salisbury, if a locomotive was to work through from London to Exeter, was taking water. Unlike the other three main line companies the Southern did not have any water troughs, and from earlier times the LSWR had built "water cart" high capacity 8-wheeled tenders. But by the time these got to Salisbury it would need a complete refill. There might even have been an associated issue with the water pressure there which meant it just took too long. And of course, if you optimise the tender for water capacity, there is less space for coal. Better and quicker to change engines. You were changing crews anyway.

The water issue was, indirectly, responsible for the 1906 Salisbury accident. The LSWR wanted to run boat trains from Plymouth to London with just one loco change. Doing so at one of the traditional change points, Exeter or Salisbury, meant that one leg or the other was just too long for water, so they ran the Salisbury loco 25 miles west light engine to Templecombe, changed locos there, and could then achieve it with two long runs but within the loco's capabilities. It then became about the only express that passed through Salisbury non stop.

The Schools fleet was addressing a similar infrastructure issue. The Southern's constituents had large fleets of existing 4-4-0s, and they just didn't have the turntables on the system to turn a larger loco, so a more compact but powerful one was needed at a range of points. The summer Waterloo to Lymington services needed to run a Schools for a long distance down the SW main line, just because there was no adequate turntable anywhere near Lymington for anything larger.
 
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70014IronDuke

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They were good locos and were used much more widely than just on the Hastings line - some were based at Fratton pre-electrification, and they also worked Bournemouth services pre-Bulleid. On the SECR they worked to Kent as well as to Hastings. As late as 1955 there were 8 based at Ramsgate and 3 at Dover.
I wouldn't deny they were good locos - but if you build 40 engines for a Hastings service that needs - guess - 7 serviceable locos per day, so 15 locos all told (allowing for works, maintenance) you have to put 25 others somewhere!
The Schools fleet was addressing a similar infrastructure issue. The Southern's constituents had large fleets of existing 4-4-0s, and they just didn't have the turntables on the system to turn a larger loco, so a more compact but powerful one was needed at a range of points. The summer Waterloo to Lymington services needed to run a Schools for a long distance down the SW main line, just because there was no adequate turntable anywhere near Lymington for anything larger.
I think this has to be the answer: otherwise, simply build more N15s, which were cheaper to maintain and did the same job. But the SR was alwasy very cost-savvy.
Bradley just says that, ‘the need to oil-round, shovel the coal forward and take water invariably prolonged the stop by four or five minutes.’ Whether both crews set to or the departing one just scooted as soon as possible, I do not know.
Of course they had to take water, but the incoming crew could have done that, with the new crew doing the oiling and pushing the coal forward.

I believe there was "inter-shed politics" involved. Through loco working diminished the role of Salisbury (yes, they may have kept the passenger turn Salisbury-Exeter Central, but lost the loco prep work and potentially and importantly the loco allocation, which could have affected the grading of supervisory staff. Believe me, as the son of an ASLEF Branch Secretary, such things could prompt strong feelings!

Also, when through running was reintroduced in 1950 an additional turn was provided to shovel coal forward during the crew changeover! Which indicates how touchy these things could be...

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I suspect this was the real reason behind the 'overtime' at Salisbury when through running was introduced.
And, in fairness, depending on the quality of the coal used, towards the end of the run the LN firebox may have been clinkered a bit, resulting in poorer steaming? That would have supported changing engines at Salisbury.
 

Gloster

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I wouldn't deny they were good locos - but if you build 40 engines for a Hastings service that needs - guess - 7 serviceable locos per day, so 15 locos all told (allowing for works, maintenance) you have to put 25 others somewhere!

I have just had another look at Bradley and I think that the Schools were not specifically designed for the Hastings line: they were intended to be the replacement for a number of classes on second-string expresses across the Southern. I think people have believed that they were specially designed for the Hastings because of the cab shape, but it was really that they were a universal type which had to have that modification if it was going to run to Hastings.
 

Harvester

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I have come across a colour photograph, published in “Last years of South West Steam“, of 30865 at Weymouth shed in the late 1950s, when it was based at Bournemouth. It had probably deputised for a Bulleid Pacific, but this is the only photo I have seen of the class west of Bournemouth and wondered how often they worked the Bournemouth-Weymouth route! By November 1959 all the class were allocated to Eastleigh, and like the WR Kings, barely lasted a year once the first withdrawals commenced.
 

Taunton

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The heyday of the "Nelsons" was in the 1930s-40s, when they were the most mainstream type of Southern express loco. Once the Bulleid Pacifics came along, and it is a common belief that far too many of these were built, they became rather an orphan type. Their later allocation to Eastleigh was in particular to handle the boat trains rather than the daily regular expresses, the boat services requiring sometimes all the locomotives on one day, then several days with none needed at all. Eastleigh also handled a lot of freight and local traffic, which allowed the crews to work in a substantial pool, but not the Nelsons.
 

6Gman

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I have come across a colour photograph, published in “Last years of South West Steam“, of 30865 at Weymouth shed in the late 1950s, when it was based at Bournemouth. It had probably deputised for a Bulleid Pacific, but this is the only photo I have seen of the class west of Bournemouth and wondered how often they worked the Bournemouth-Weymouth route! By November 1959 all the class were allocated to Eastleigh, and like the WR Kings, barely lasted a year once the first withdrawals commenced.
Transcripts of the early 1950s diagrammes have been published. At the time Bournemouth had 5 LNs allocated for 3 daily diagrammes - Diag.393 worked two return trips to Weymouth; 394 worked a return trip to Eastleigh then a single trip to Weymouth, light to Dorchester loco (overnight stay) to work 395 which had an early trip to Bournemouth followed by a return trip to Oxford.

So, yes, plenty of work to Weymouth then!
 

DarloRich

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Which Lord Hawke is this locomotive named after? Assume the first who was an Admiral rather than the 7th who captained Yorkshire!
 

zwk500

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Which Lord Hawke is this locomotive named after? Assume the first who was an Admiral rather than the 7th who captained Yorkshire!
As a member of the 'Lord Nelson' class, all of which were named for Admirals, I think your assumption is reasonably safe.
 

30907

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As a member of the 'Lord Nelson' class, all of which were named for Admirals, I think your assumption is reasonably safe.
....and as the Southern ran through 5 first-class counties (counting bits of Middlesex) he would have been most inappropriate :)
 

Gloster

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....and as the Southern ran through 5 first-class counties (counting bits of Middlesex) he would have been most inappropriate :)

If you mean cricket, is it not six. Kent, Sussex, Surrey, Hampshire, Middlesex and Somerset. (I think: I know less about cricket than most sports.)
 
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