30860 'Lord Hawke'

[MotCO]

I have recently discovered that my great grandfather was a train driver and routinely drove 30860 'Lord Hawke'. I think he was based at Nine Elms, and drove the train on the mainline, either just before or after World War 1, but would welcome any other information or knowledge anyone might have.

Thanks.

 

[D6130]

I have recently discovered that my great grandfather was a train driver and routinely drove 30680 'Lord Hawke'. I think he was based at Nine Elms, and drove the train on the mainline, either just before or after World War 1, but would welcome any other information or knowledge anyone might have.

Small correction: The loco's number was 30860.

 

[Harvester]

30860 entered service in December 1929 and was definitely based at Nine Elms when BR was formed on 1st January 1948, remaining there until May 1958. After a brief spell at Bournemouth it moved to Eastleigh in November 1959, and along with the other members of the class was used regularly on Southampton to London boat trains. It was withdrawn in August 1962.

 

[MotCO]

Small correction: The loco's number was 30860.

Thanks - my typo . Now corrected

 

[70014IronDuke]

Of all the depots throughout the land, Nine Elms seems to have one of the most passionate followings of any. It has, or had, a live website, which is still available, but (at first glance) seems to be only there for the record these days.

But it may be worth a look, even if most of the contributors (last time I looked) come from the 60s, with some from the 1950s - a bit too late for your search, but who knows?

(I just love the home page photo - it is somewhat depressing, given the myriad of possible pics available over the years - but it is a testament to the reality of this depot in its last months, 1967. That was life, or near-death, in the case of 70A at the time. A real Waterloo Sunset.)

Nine Elms Locomotive Shed Website

svsfilm.com

You best bet maybe to contact this site. (Again, the Southern Railway seems to have collected an amazing set of experts in this group.) Good luck!

sremg.org.uk

Enthusiasts, Historians, and Modellers of the Southern Railway, including its predecessors and successors, corresponding over the internet.

sremg.org.uk

 

[6Gman]

I have recently discovered that my great grandfather was a train driver and routinely drove 30860 'Lord Hawke'. I think he was based at Nine Elms, and drove the train on the mainline, either just before or after World War 1, but would welcome any other information or knowledge anyone might have.

Thanks.

Since 30860 wasn't built until 1929 he clearly couldn't have been driving it around World War I, did you mean World War II?

Or was there an earlier Lord Hawke (I don't think so).

 

[MotCO]

Since 30860 wasn't built until 1929 he clearly couldn't have been driving it around World War I, did you mean World War II?

Or was there an earlier Lord Hawke (I don't think so).

My great grandfather was born in 1870, so he would have been 59 when he could first drive the Lord Hawke which just sounds a bit old.

 

[6Gman]

My great grandfather was born in 1870, so he would have been 59 when he could first drive the Lord Hawke which just sounds a bit old.

There were plenty of drivers aged 59 and older. I presume retirement age would have been 65?

 

[Ianigsy]

The link system would have given a lot of weight to seniority and the Lord Nelsons were the Southern’s premier locos until the Pacifics turned up, so I would have thought that a long-serving driver would have been near the front of the queue for driving the new locos.

 

[Gloster]

It was the case that drivers worked their way up the links to the top ones, which got the best and most important trains. And the most important trains got the best, usually newest, locos. 59 was by no means too old and would be a quite normal age to be in one of the top links, quite possibly the top one by the time he retired.

 

[Taunton]

Link progression by seniority, and thus by age, was normal, all the way up to the top as a fireman, and then starting again upwards as a driver. The pay structure also rose in a similar way. There were a few, however, who either by their own choice or that of management, got taken off the high speed and arduous turns as they approached retirement, dropping back to local services. Nine Elms did have many express turns, but of course a lot of depots, even nearby Feltham, did not. There was a minor LNER branch shed which closed in the 1930s, the crew were offered relocation anywhere, one driver chose a vacancy at Kings Cross in London, and purely by their long serving seniority pottering up and down the rural branch were straight into Top Link main line expresses.

Lord Hawke was at Nine Elms in 1939 as well. Pre-WW2 the "Nelsons" were divided pretty equally between Nine Elms and Stewarts Lane (actually walking distance apart, in Battersea), as the latter covered services like the Dover boat trains as well, but once the Bulleid Pacifics came along they were concentrated on the Waterloo to Bournemouth line. It was number 860 until 1948, only changing to 30860 with nationalisation. The Southampton boat trains were pretty random, dependent on shipping schedules, some days none at all, others the running department were scrambling all over for locos, carriages and crews, which cascaded down to what was available for the scheduled expresses on any day.

 

[70014IronDuke]

It was the case that drivers worked their way up the links to the top ones, which got the best and most important trains. And the most important trains got the best, usually newest, locos. 59 was by no means too old and would be a quite normal age to be in one of the top links, quite possibly the top one by the time he retired.

True, unless, of course, his eyesight was not longer what it had been earlier.

 

[6Gman]

Link progression by seniority, and thus by age, was normal, all the way up to the top as a fireman, and then starting again upwards as a driver. The pay structure also rose in a similar way. There were a few, however, who either by their own choice or that of management, got taken off the high speed and arduous turns as they approached retirement, dropping back to local services. Nine Elms did have many express turns, but of course a lot of depots, even nearby Feltham, did not. There was a minor LNER branch shed which closed in the 1930s, the crew were offered relocation anywhere, one driver chose a vacancy at Kings Cross in London, and purely by their long serving seniority pottering up and down the rural branch were straight into Top Link main line expresses.

Lord Hawke was at Nine Elms in 1939 as well. Pre-WW2 the "Nelsons" were divided pretty equally between Nine Elms and Stewarts Lane (actually walking distance apart, in Battersea), as the latter covered services like the Dover boat trains as well, but once the Bulleid Pacifics came along they were concentrated on the Waterloo to Bournemouth line. It was number 860 until 1948, only changing to 30860 with nationalisation. The Southampton boat trains were pretty random, dependent on shipping schedules, some days none at all, others the running department were scrambling all over for locos, carriages and crews, which cascaded down to what was available for the scheduled expresses on any day.

Indeed.

There were also what were often described as "Old Men's Links" or "Old Men's Turns" at most sheds, where medically-restricted drivers could retain their jobs by switching to suitable work (local shunting or pottering around on trip working and the like).

I think (I would need to check) that the most arduous work at Crewe North (overnight trips to Perth and the like) were in the second senior link precisely because the senior link would be older men.

 

[Harvester]

Seniority by age had more or less ceased at Nine Elms during the last year of steam, with serious staff shortages of all grades. Firemen in No 3 link were under twenty years of age, and regularly firing Bulleid Pacifics on the Waterloo to Bournemouth route!

 

[D Williams]

Indeed.

There were also what were often described as "Old Men's Links" or "Old Men's Turns" at most sheds, where medically-restricted drivers could retain their jobs by switching to suitable work (local shunting or pottering around on trip working and the like).

I think (I would need to check) that the most arduous work at Crewe North (overnight trips to Perth and the like) were in the second senior link precisely because the senior link would be older men.

And the top link turn at Wadebridge ( 72F) was the Wenford goods!

 

[Gloster]

And the top link turn at Wadebridge ( 72F) was the Wenford goods!

A nice, easy middle-turn for an old driver. I know that the LSWR allowed older signalmen at the busiest boxes to drop down to quieter country boxes when they reached a certain age or had a certain number of years in. I think they dropped back in pay, but kept all the other perks of seniority.

 

[MotCO]

I have accessed the sremg.org.uk website (thanks @70014IronDuke ) , and this shows that Lord Hawke was first allocated to Stewarts Lane when new (December 1929), transferring to Nine Elms in June 1932. It transferred to Bournemouth on 6 June 1958, and to Eastleigh on 26 November 1959. It had AWS fitted in December 1960, and was withdrawn in August 1962.

Based on this information, my great grandather must have driven this engine between 1932 and 1940 when he died (unless he retired before that - the pension age was 65 from 1925, so he may have retired in 1935); it is possible that he only drove these engines between 1932 and 1935.

My aunt believes that he drove the engine between Salisbury and Waterloo, although @Harvester believes they were used on the Southampton boat trains. There are also photos showing the engine on the Bournemouth Belle in 1934/35 in Bournemouth Central and Battledown Viaduct. Were there Salisbury terminators, or were these the Bournemouth trains calling at Salisbury? Or was there a crew change at Salisbury?

 

[70014IronDuke]

I have accessed the sremg.org.uk website (thanks @70014IronDuke ) , and this shows that Lord Hawke was first allocated to Stewarts Lane when new (December 1929), transferring to Nine Elms in June 1932. It transferred to Bournemouth on 6 June 1958, and to Eastleigh on 26 November 1959. It had AWS fitted in December 1960, and was withdrawn in August 1962.

Based on this information, my great grandather must have driven this engine between 1932 and 1940 when he died (unless he retired before that - the pension age was 65 from 1925, so he may have retired in 1935); it is possible that he only drove these engines between 1932 and 1935.

My aunt believes that he drove the engine between Salisbury and Waterloo, although @Harvester believes they were used on the Southampton boat trains.

I think they were preferred for these turns, but it was possible to get them on Bournemouth expresses and sometimes on Exeter trains.

There are also photos showing the engine on the Bournemouth Belle in 1934/35 in Bournemouth Central and Battledown Viaduct. Were there Salisbury terminators, or were these the Bournemouth trains calling at Salisbury? Or was there a crew change at Salisbury?

Bournemouth trains did not normally go via Salisbury except for special diversions.

Waterloo - Exeter (and beyond) trains changed crews at Salisbury (or just after in the case of the supposed "non-stop" Royal Wessex pullman - unadvertised stop at Wilton, IIRC)

There would have been some Waterloo - Salisbury terminators, I suppose. Probably after 18.00 from Waterloo. (And early morning ex-Salisbury.)

I'm sure Lord Nelsons got to Salisbury and Exeter on occasion when Nine Elms had nothing better prepared, but my impression is (as per @Harvester) they were intended for the Southampton (especially) and Bournemouth routes after the full introduction of the Bulleid pacifics by c 1950.

 

[30907]

Fairly certain the Western Section batch would have worked to Salisbury if not to Exeter pre-WW2.

 

[6Gman]

We are looking at the 1929-35 (or possibly '40) period so the Lord Nelsons were theoretically the premier locos on that part of the Southern Railway. I say theoretically as a lot of people seemed to feel they were no better than, and possibly inferior to, the earlier King Arthurs. But as such I would have expected them to be used on the most important express passenger services, both to Southampton/Bournemouth/Weymouth and to Salisbury/Exeter. Quite likely they would only have worked to Bournemouth and Salisbury respectively.

There were definitely Waterloo-Salisbury trains but I would have expected them to use lesser locos generally.

 

[D6130]

Waterloo - Exeter (and beyond) trains changed crews at Salisbury (or just after in the case of the supposed "non-stop" Royal Wessex pullman - unadvertised stop at Wilton, IIRC)

I think you may be confusing the Royal Wessex with the Atlantic Coast Express.

The Royal Wessex - introduced to coincide with the Festival of Britain in 1951 - was a three portion non-Pullman express from Weymouth, Swanage and Bournemouth West in the morning, returning in the late afternoon/early evening.

 

[70014IronDuke]

I think you may be confusing the Royal Wessex with the Atlantic Coast Express.

The Royal Wessex - introduced to coincide with the Festival of Britain in 1951 - was a three portion non-Pullman express from Weymouth, Swanage and Bournemouth West in the morning, returning in the late afternoon/early evening.

Doh! <Slaps self on wrists and repeats: next time you wonder if it's correct when posting, don't post, especially if you are tired!>

Apologies for any confusion caused.

We are looking at the 1929-35 (or possibly '40) period so the Lord Nelsons were theoretically the premier locos on that part of the Southern Railway.

Yes, of course. My waffle about post WW2 was not really relevant to the OP.

I say theoretically as a lot of people seemed to feel they were no better than, and possibly inferior to, the earlier King Arthurs. But as such I would have expected them to be used on the most important express passenger services, both to Southampton/Bournemouth/Weymouth and to Salisbury/Exeter. Quite likely they would only have worked to Bournemouth and Salisbury respectively.

I get the feeling that they did not often work through to Exeter. Just don't remember seeing many pics of them there - but maybe I haven't looked at enough books for that period.

There were definitely Waterloo-Salisbury trains but I would have expected them to use lesser locos generally.

I think these were mostly stoppers (at least beyond Basingstoke), so probably Class 2 trains - which is probably what you mean. Definitely not a job for an LN under normal circumstances.

With reference to you note about LNs versus, eg N15s above - As I understand it, the LNs needed time for the fireman to adapt to the long firebox. Inexperienced firemen would not realise the need for such a long throw, and hence poor steaming would result. This was one reason for concentrating the class at Eastleigh shed and diagramming the LNs for Southampton boat trains, allowing the smaller number of links involved to adapt to the LNs' idiosyncrasies.

 

[6Gman]

I believe that through loco working between Waterloo and Exeter was only introduced in 1950, so in SR days locos would have been changed at Salisbury.

There may have been Nine Elms locos diagrammed to Exeter (Waterloo-Salisbury, onto shed, Salisbury-Exeter, onto shed, Exeter-Salisbury, onto shed, Salisbury-Waterloo) but such complex diagrams were more of an LMS or GW "thing" - the SR was more inclined to use simple diagrams that kept locos fairly close to home. So my guess - and it's not my area of expertise [you have an area of expertise? ] - is that Nine Elms Lord Nelsons would have been seen in Salisbury regularly, but only rarely west thereof.

 

[30907]

I get the feeling that they did not often work through to Exeter. Just don't remember seeing many pics of them there - but maybe I haven't looked at enough books for that period.

I think you are right - this lengthy 30s article says locos were changed at Salisbury and a King Arthur was the normal loco west of there (and sometimes east too):
https://www.railwaywondersoftheworld.com/m/atlantic-coast-express.html

Through engine working on the expresses started about 1950.

6Gman has just made the second point - though actually BR(S) was not averse to complex engine diagrams.

 

[Gloster]

E860 was run in on the Bournemouth line and after a while it went to Battersea (later known as Stewart’s Lane) for a year or two before returning to the Western Section. It worked the first ‘Bournemouth Limited’ on 8 July 1929, but after a while this duty passed to the Lord Nelsons. In March and April E850 was based at Exmouth Junction for the ‘Atlantic Coast Express’, working up MWFO and returning the following day; the opposite workings on these days were worked by E860 or E861. Crews were changed at Salisbury, but the time taken with the various tasks meant that the ACE ran late: from the beginning of the summer timetable they reverted to changing locos at Salisbury and the Nelsons didn’t work west of it.

Source: Locomotives of the Southern Railway, Part 1 (Bradley, RCTS, 1975).

 

[70014IronDuke]

E860 was run in on the Bournemouth line and after a while it went to Battersea (later known as Stewart’s Lane) for a year or two before returning to the Western Section. It worked the first ‘Bournemouth Limited’ on 8 July 1929, but after a while this duty passed to the Lord Nelsons. In March and April E850 was based at Exmouth Junction for the ‘Atlantic Coast Express’, working up MWFO and returning the following day; the opposite workings on these days were worked by E860 or E861. Crews were changed at Salisbury, but the time taken with the various tasks meant that the ACE ran late: from the beginning of the summer timetable they reverted to changing locos at Salisbury and the Nelsons didn’t work west of it.

Source: Locomotives of the Southern Railway, Part 1 (Bradley, RCTS, 1975).

How bizarre! So the book is saying that the crew taking over at Salisbury, having to check over the locomotive - oiling and greasing? Anything else required? - took longer than having to uncouple, take the first loco off, change the road for the new loco, couple up and do a brake test (presumably)?

Well, it seems bizarre to me. Makes me wonder if there were some other reason? Perhaps the crews did not like taking over a locomotive for another 85-mile run. Difficult to access coal in the tender, perhaps, by the end? And they thus found good reason to 'check the locomotive thoroughly - sorry about the time needed' when working through?

On a rather off-topic tangent, this thread has made me wonder why the SR built so many Schools - I think it was 40 engines? (Nothing personal, I liked the Schools, just to make this clear, although I only consciously saw two working in BR days.)

But as I understand it, they were primarily built for the Hastings line. OK, fair enough - but those services surely would only need 12-15 engines, 18 at the very most, to cover those duties. Why build more of a complicated (ie 3-cylinder loco) of 5P rating when there was a low-cost, 2-cylinder King Arthur 5P design, with jigs and all tooling already available. And with a greater proportion of adhesive weight on the drivers than the 4-4-0?

Perhaps one of those questions to which the answers are lost in time, or in the graves of one Maunsell, Locomotive Engineer, RIP.

 

[6Gman]

On a rather off-topic tangent, this thread has made me wonder why the SR built so many Schools - I think it was 40 engines? (Nothing personal, I liked the Schools, just to make this clear, although I only consciously saw two working in BR days.)

But as I understand it, they were primarily built for the Hastings line. OK, fair enough - but those services surely would only need 12-15 engines, 18 at the very most, to cover those duties. Why build more of a complicated (ie 3-cylinder loco) of 5P rating when there was a low-cost, 2-cylinder King Arthur 5P design, with jigs and all tooling already available. And with a greater proportion of adhesive weight on the drivers than the 4-4-0?

Perhaps one of those questions to which the answers are lost in time, or in the graves of one Maunsell, Locomotive Engineer, RIP.

They were good locos and were used much more widely than just on the Hastings line - some were based at Fratton pre-electrification, and they also worked Bournemouth services pre-Bulleid. On the SECR they worked to Kent as well as to Hastings. As late as 1955 there were 8 based at Ramsgate and 3 at Dover.

 

[30907]

6Gman

How bizarre! So the book is saying that the crew taking over at Salisbury, having to check over the locomotive - oiling and greasing? Anything else required?

Taking water, most obviously - I imagine you would arrive "on empty" and want a full tender for the longer run to Exeter

 

[6Gman]

How bizarre! So the book is saying that the crew taking over at Salisbury, having to check over the locomotive - oiling and greasing? Anything else required? - took longer than having to uncouple, take the first loco off, change the road for the new loco, couple up and do a brake test (presumably)?

Well, it seems bizarre to me. Makes me wonder if there were some other reason? Perhaps the crews did not like taking over a locomotive for another 85-mile run. Difficult to access coal in the tender, perhaps, by the end? And they thus found good reason to 'check the locomotive thoroughly - sorry about the time needed' when working through?

I believe there was "inter-shed politics" involved. Through loco working diminished the role of Salisbury (yes, they may have kept the passenger turn Salisbury-Exeter Central, but lost the loco prep work and potentially and importantly the loco allocation, which could have affected the grading of supervisory staff. Believe me, as the son of an ASLEF Branch Secretary, such things could prompt strong feelings!

Also, when through running was reintroduced in 1950 an additional turn was provided to shovel coal forward during the crew changeover! Which indicates how touchy these things could be...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jan 2024 ==

6Gman

Taking water, most obviously - I imagine you would arrive "on empty" and want a full tender for the longer run to Exeter

And - of course - no water troughs on the Southern.

 

[Gloster]

How bizarre! So the book is saying that the crew taking over at Salisbury, having to check over the locomotive - oiling and greasing? Anything else required? - took longer than having to uncouple, take the first loco off, change the road for the new loco, couple up and do a brake test (presumably)?

Bradley just says that, ‘the need to oil-round, shovel the coal forward and take water invariably prolonged the stop by four or five minutes.’ Whether both crews set to or the departing one just scooted as soon as possible, I do not know.

On a rather off-topic tangent, this thread has made me wonder why the SR built so many Schools - I think it was 40 engines? (Nothing personal, I liked the Schools, just to make this clear, although I only consciously saw two working in BR days.)

I think it was that they were an extremely good loco, quite capable of working almost anything except the very heaviest trains, which could be left to the Nelsons and Arthurs. Therefore, rather than ordering more of these when some of the types used on secondary expresses needed replacement, more Schools were preferred. (Bradley mentions that some of the LSWR 4-4-0 were beginning to age, the L1 had proved a disappointment and there were the Rivers…)