304s/310s & 312s

[Snow1964]

I was at university in Coventry 1984-87, and most of the locals to Birmingham (and Wolverhampton) were generally 310s (and the 4 x 312s).

304s occasionally appeared, usually on peak hour services, but rarely on Saturdays too. 304s were normally on Walsall services. At the time the cross city line was unelectrified.

From memory the 310s couldn't be used on the Fenchurch Street lines until after the 25kv voltage conversion (which I think was completed in 1989)

 

[norbitonflyer]

looked like a 310 but distinguishable by aluminium surrounds to the cab windows.I think the West Midlands PTE may have had some involvement with their purchase, so they were kept there.

The 310s, as built, had wrap round windscreens - a feature shared only with classes 123, 124, 303, 309 and 311.

They were ordered to strengthen the LMR fleet for the expansion of services following the opening of Birmingham International International and although they did stray further - the first one I saw was at Coventry - they rarely left the West Midlands.

 

[Magdalia]

How common was electric loco haulage on these types of services? Or was it ever a thing?

Interesting, I can't think of any other commuter trains that have been ran by electric locos in the UK.

There were Northampton-Euston electric loco hauled commuter trains all through the 1980s.

Late 1980s class 86s on the Liverpool Street-Cambridge line count too, the trains were NSE not Inter City. My memory is a bit hazy here but I think the class 86s briefly shared the service with class 310s.

 

[Transilien]

Late 1980s class 86s on the Liverpool Street-Cambridge line count too, the trains were NSE not Inter City. My memory is a bit hazy here but I think the class 86s briefly shared the service with class 310s.

There's also Edinburgh to North Berwick which was class 90s + mark 3s.

 

[JonathanH]

The 310s, as built, had wrap round windscreens - a feature shared only with classes 123, 124, 303, 309 and 311.

442s as well

There's also Edinburgh to North Berwick which was class 90s + mark 3s.

That was a short term expedient when the units were sent elsewhere.

 

[Snow1964]

Interesting, I can't think of any other commuter trains that have been ran by electric locos in the UK.

There was short period in late 1980s where some peak hour workings out of Waterloo used pairs of 73s due to withdrawal of some 4REPs until the 442s entered service

 

[Sun Chariot]

Northampton Cobblers.

I was in my O- & A-level years when the Euston-Northampton "Cobbler" peak hours commuter services ran. Always a great noise, when a Roarer's driver was "keen". I had a spirited run on one service, in 1987 I think. Euston to Leighton Buzzard - start to stop - in less than 29 minutes. Not bad for a class 85.

 

[nw1]

I think the loco-hauled semi-fasts came before the AM9/309 services, they did exist for a year or two and may have been because of a general shortage of EMUs, there was one for the Crewe line and one for Stoke from memory.

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That's a different topic I think! But Chertsey-Waterloo springs to mind ....... (https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...oco-hauled-service.224122/page-3#post-5414517)

Certain '93' Waterloo-Southampton standard-off-peak-pattern stoppers were operated push-pull with 73s and TC stock in the 1989-1990 timetable period; certainly the Sep 89-May 90 timetable and probably May-Sep 89 too as at that time there were few differences between them.

Not sure if anyone has more info on this, e.g. can remember the exact services? If I remember right there was one around 0850, one around 0950, one around 1350 and one around 1650 at Southampton, but can't remember whether these were the up or down services at these times. The up services left Southampton at xx50, if I remember right, while the down services arrived around xx57 - so you'd see an up and a down at around the same time, as they crossed in the St Denys area.

I do remember that I could not figure out the diagrams fully, as they weren't all simply a case of the up service turning around at Waterloo and forming the next down.

I do also remember in this era that the Southampton and Alton services interworked many hours, so I'm wondering if any of these 73/TC formations had booked work to Alton that year?

 

[Sun Chariot]

The 310s, as built, had wrap round windscreens

Geek moment: do any of you readers recall which 310 still retained its wrap around windscreens, after its refurbishment and NSE livery? I know the answer - I have a photo of the unit at Euston.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Aug 2024 ==

There was short period in late 1980s where some peak hour workings out of Waterloo used pairs of 73s due to withdrawal of some 4REPs until the 442s entered service

I photographed a couple of those workings in 1987 (before entering Basingstoke's Rail Fair - great times). I saw (but didn't manage to photograph) one where the REP DMS had been swapped, like for like, with a 73/1. To me, it looked very odd: the 3 REP coaches + the ED.

 

[SuspectUsual]

I was at university in Coventry 1984-87, and most of the locals to Birmingham (and Wolverhampton) were generally 310s (and the 4 x 312s).

304s occasionally appeared, usually on peak hour services, but rarely on Saturdays too. 304s were normally on Walsall services. At the time the cross city line was unelectrified.

I lived in Coventry in the late 70s / early and mid 80s and this matches my recollection exactly.

The Coventry to Birmingham stopper was half hourly and was pretty much the only scheduled use of platform 4 (it was also used if disruption meant a service off the Kenilworth line arrived at the same time as platform 3 was needed for something from Euston)

 

[43096]

Interesting, I can't think of any other commuter trains that have been ran by electric locos in the UK.

Northampton “cobblers” sets are another example. Sets of Mark 1s with Class 81-86 haulage.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Certain '93' Waterloo-Southampton standard-off-peak-pattern stoppers were operated push-pull with 73s and TC stock in the 1989-1990 timetable.

Not sure if anyone has more info on this, e.g. can remember the exact services? If I remember right there was one around 0850, one around 0950, one around 1350 and one around 1650 at Southampton, but can't remember whether these were the up or down services at these times. The up services left Southampton at xx50, if I remember right, while the down services arrived around xx57 - so you'd see an up and a down at around the same time, as they crossed in the St Denys area.

I do remember that I could not figure out the diagrams fully, as they weren't all simply a case of the up service turning around at Waterloo and forming the next down.

I do remember in this era the Southampton and Alton services interworked many hours, so I'm wondering if any of these 73/TC formations had booked work to Alton that year?

I travelled Waterloo - Eastleigh and return, off peak, in the summer of 1988 and both journeys were hauled by 2 x 73s. This was, as has been mentioned, because of the withdrawal of the REPs which also meant that there was no buffet car, and the 'buffet' was an attendant serving through the corridor door of a first class side compartment stacked with provisions (including a coffee urn). I was fairly sure (not certain) that, on the return journey, the 73s were running on diesel - in defence of my inattention I was at the time travelling considerable distances by rail daily and sometimes the interest waned.


// Mention of the 312s above; sometimes (particularly on Saturdays, I think) they turned up at Northampton on a Euston service. One difference from 310s was that they had gangways between the 2nd and 3rd cars (the 310s only had gangways between pairs) and using this meant passing through the guards' compartment. When I caught such a 312, I used the gangway, really just for novelty; the guards reaction was silent but the expression very hostile, presumably angry at the intrusion on his own private space secure from 'customers'. From what I remember, there wasn't a side corridor past the guards' accommodation (as was the case in a BSK etc) but just a single open area. I'm not sure what the logic was to provide a through gangway for sets intended to work Birmingham New St - International but not on ones that worked Birmingham New St - Euston.

 

[Snow1964]

I'm not sure what the logic was to provide a through gangway for sets intended to work Birmingham New St - International but not on ones that worked Birmingham New St - Euston.

The simple answer was the 4 West Midlands units were a simple add on to those being built for Kings Cross outer suburban electrification. Didn't bother to change the design. Strictly they had 75mph limits but that was about only difference.

There was another batch of 312s for Great Eastern improvements (but they had the dual voltage equipment too)

 

[Merle Haggard]

The simple answer was the 4 West Midlands units were a simple add on to those being built for Kings Cross outer suburban electrification. Didn't bother to change the design. Strictly they had 75mph limits but that was about only difference.

There was another batch of 312s for Great Eastern improvements (but they had the dual voltage equipment too)

Thanks, make sense.

Lack of an intermediate gangway wouldn't have been a problem; when I started commuting to Euston in 1970 the train timed to arrive there in time for an 08.30 office start was a 4 car and that was certainly enough!

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Interesting, I can't think of any other commuter trains that have been ran by electric locos in the UK.

There was a period when a peak Manchester - Stoke stopper was a class 86 and a 'Cross Country' Mk 2 set, I think it then went ecs to (presumably) Oxley, saved a longer ecs run and saved an EMU.

 

[nw1]

There was a period when a peak Manchester - Stoke stopper was a class 86 and a 'Cross Country' Mk 2 set, I think it then went ecs to (presumably) Oxley, saved a longer ecs run and saved an EMU.

This makes sense if you think about it - perhaps after 1730 or so there is less demand for cross-country travel but more for short-distance peak travel.

So the 'XC' set would otherwise not be used, so why not use it for a peak service?

Could also work in the morning peak in reverse.

There was a similar example (admittedly diesel loco, not electric), discussed in previous threads, whereby a Manchester-Bristol XC would then form a Weston-super-Mare stopper in the evening peak. Around 1983 or so.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Northampton “cobblers” sets are another example. Sets of Mark 1s with Class 81-86 haulage.

Yep. Mentioned post #30

 

[norbitonflyer]

This makes sense if you think about it - perhaps after 1730 or so there is less demand for cross-country travel but more for short-distance peak travel.

So the 'XC' set would otherwise not be used, so why not use it for a peak service?

Could also work in the morning peak in reverse.

There was a similar example (admittedly diesel loco, not electric), discussed in previous threads, whereby a Manchester-Bristol XC would then form a Weston-super-Mare stopper in the evening peak. Around 1983 or so.

HSTs were used for some early morning commuter services in Fife at one time and simply because they were there and it saved an ECS path into Waverley for it to take up its run to London.

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Thanks, make sense.

Lack of an intermediate gangway wouldn't have been a problem; when I started commuting to Euston in 1970 the train timed to arrive there in time for an 08.30 office start was a 4 car and that was certainly enough!

Neither the 310s nor 312s had gangways between units. Where they differed was the (I think unique) arrangement in the 310s where there was a gangway between each driving trailer and the adjacent intermediate coach, but not between the two middle coaches.
A far as I recall, all other units were either fully gangwayed (including through the driving cabs) gangwayed within the unit, or not gangwayed at all.
The "tadpoles" (class 206) don't count as they were hybrids of a gangwayed class 201 and a non-gangwayed 416

 

[gg1]

Kings Cross - Peterborough with Cl89

91s were also used on those services pending completion of the full ECML electrification to Scotland.

This one might be a bit tenuous, but the extension of the up Royal Scot in the late 80s/early 90s to start from Ayr. I'd hazard a guess that the overwhelming majority of passengers boarding at Ayr were Glasgow commuters.

 

[Bikeman78]

Just a quick question as I recall these EMUs frequently on the Wolverhampton to Birmingham stoppers, as well as locals and semi fasts to Euston.

Shen did they finish service? Mid 90s? And which routes did they finish on ?

Thanks in advance.

The last run of the 304s was 31/03/96. A pair of them ran from Redditch to Lichfield all day. They also appeared between Wolverhampton and Coventry until the end. I think the Manchester 304s finished slightly earlier. They were replaced by 305s from Ilford. I have no idea when they last ran to Liverpool. Probably early 1990s.

The 310s lasted slightly longer. My last move in the West Midlands was on 20/01/00. My last run to Liverpool was 30/06/99. They turned up on all the electrified routes around Birmingham. There was an early morning run from Northampton to Birmingham which I rode on in January 1999. 11 of the 13 three cars moved to East Ham in 2000. My first three car run on the LTS was 18/05/00.

In the mid 1990s, a few 312s that were surplus from Great Eastern moved to Birmingham. I think it was 312725 to 312728. Not sure how long they stayed there.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Neither the 310s nor 312s had gangways between units. Where they differed was the (I think unique) arrangement in the 310s where there was a gangway between each driving trailer and the adjacent intermediate coach, but not between the two middle coaches.
A far as I recall, all other units were either fully gangwayed (including through the driving cabs) gangwayed within the unit, or not gangwayed at all.
The "tadpoles" (class 206) don't count as they were hybrids of a gangwayed class 201 and a non-gangwayed 416

Sorry, I can see that my post had ambiguity. When I refereed to gangways I did indeed mean within the set; and when I referred to the commuter working being only 4 car. the reference was to the fact that the loadings were such that not been able to move between the front pair and the rear pair of coaches (and v.v.) did not result in one half being full & standing and the other half having space - both had space, it wasn't a problem, even in a 4 car. As an aside, I usually rode in one of the window seats (no external door) of the MBS and was once abused verbally by a Berkhamsted commuter for leaving space between me & the window - after his rant I stood to show the protruding panel (over the power cables) and asked for his suggestions about removing it so that I could

 

[Bikeman78]

Ah, OK, interesting.
The 12:40 was 1G06 11:39 Piccadilly to New Street, and was at least timed properly in that it was booked to leave Stafford at 12r43, meaning advertised departure time 12:40 but it lost something like 3 minutes compared to the normal E315 weekday and winter Saturday service.

Losing only three minutes over that distance when limited to 75 mph is impressive. How fast could a 310 actually go? Were they geared differently to the 312s? I recall some fast runs to Liverpool though I never bothered to time them so I don't know how fast they actually went. Suffice to say, they were quite capable of beating the class 158 schedules.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Losing only three minutes over that distance when limited to 75 mph is impressive. How fast could a 310 actually go? Were they geared differently to the 312s? I recall some fast runs to Liverpool though I never bothered to time them so I don't know how fast they actually went. Suffice to say, they were quite capable of beating the class 158 schedules.

The long-ish straight from Leighton Buzzard to south of Cheddington, the 310s I travelled in, still kept to 75mph.

 

[Strathclyder]

That was a short term expedient when the units were sent elsewhere.

While it was indeed a temporary measure, it happened for a long enough period (in both the Nat X and First franchises) between the last 305 withdrawal in early 2002 and the 322s settling with ScotRail permanently in late 2005, that Class 90 stop signs appeared at the relevent stations (linked image from the 6089Gardener Flickr stream):

318253 MUB 1519 GLC-NBW 17-9-04

On 17 September 2004, 318253 arrives at Musselburgh on the 1519 Glasgow Central - North Berwick. At this time, these were the only EMU workings to North Berwick.

www.flickr.com

 

[Merle Haggard]

The long-ish straight from Leighton Buzzard to south of Cheddington, the 310s I travelled in, still kept to 75mph.

When I worked on the D.M. London Accidents section (1970 -ish) the Divisional Civil Engineer was in the habit of riding in the rear saloon of an AM10 (first class on the Down), standing so that he could read the speedo, and report to us drivers exceeding 75 m.p.h. with location. A Traction Inspector (I think - might have been another Inspector) was given a radar speed gun and also did checks. These were passed to the Areas for action.

There had been certain mishaps where the cause had been attributed, at least partly, to 'condition of track' or 'inadequate track maintenance'...

But they had a fair turn of speed down the bank from Roade late evenings when the driver booked off at Northampton

 

[jfollows]

Losing only three minutes over that distance when limited to 75 mph is impressive. How fast could a 310 actually go? Were they geared differently to the 312s? I recall some fast runs to Liverpool though I never bothered to time them so I don't know how fast they actually went. Suffice to say, they were quite capable of beating the class 158 schedules.

Most of the route was probably still limited to 85mph then, though.

 

[norbitonflyer]

There was short period in late 1980s where some peak hour workings out of Waterloo used pairs of 73s due to withdrawal of some 4REPs until the 442s entered service

That was necessary, as the REPs' traction equipment was recycled in the 442s.

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To complete the picture, surplus Cl 303s ex Glasgow appeared principally on Glossop / Hadfield services after the route was converted to 25kV AC in 1984,

Specifically chosen as the DC units on that line had been class 506 with sliding doors, so replacing them with slammers would have been problematic (passengers standing too close, or just general unfamiliar it).
Very few sliding door stock available in 1984, still less with electrical equipment familiar to LMR staff

 

[Merle Haggard]

Minor, I know; but when the 303s were used on T.V. locals L.M. sets only carried the unit number, not the class prefix, and changing trains at Rugby I once noticed two sets side-by side-in the North facing bay; both carried the same number, one a 303 and the other a 304.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

The most notorious 'feature' of the 304s was, of course, the appalling ride quality - if a bad oscillation set in after going over the points at Cheadle Hulme or wherever you could be literally bounced out of your seat! As a regular commuter I very much welcomed the introduction of the 323s. Oddly, the 303s, with the same Gresley bogies, rode perfectly fine.

Also of note, is that the 304s were also reduced to 3 cars in the period 1984-6, which did nothing for capacity, but did remove the by then unacceptable compartments in the early batch and improved the power to weight ratio.

 

[Sun Chariot]

The most notorious 'feature' of the 304s was, of course, the appalling ride quality - if a bad oscillation set in after going over the points at Cheadle Hulme or wherever you could be literally bounced out of your seat!

I found the same bouncing behaviour on the 504s, between Manchester and Bury.