304s/310s & 312s

[MarkWi72]

Just a quick question as I recall these EMUs frequently on the Wolverhampton to Birmingham stoppers, as well as locals and semi fasts to Euston.

Shen did they finish service? Mid 90s? And which routes did they finish on ?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Bevan Price]

Just a quick question as I recall these EMUs frequently on the Wolverhampton to Birmingham stoppers, as well as locals and semi fasts to Euston.

Shen did they finish service? Mid 90s? And which routes did they finish on ?

Thanks in advance.

304s used to work Liverpool / Crewe locals, and Manchester Piccadilly to Altrincham, Crewe & Stoke locals. At various times, the Stoke locals extended to Stafford / Birmingham.
Mostly replaced when 323s were built in early/mid 1990s

 

[JonathanH]

The 312s were sent to London. The 304s were eliminated by the introduction of the 323s in the mid 1990s. The last 310s were eliminated by a 170 led cascade in 2000.

There is a blog post about the last Central Trains 310s here - https://railrevisited.blogspot.com/2019/08/the-last-days-of-central-trains-class-310.html which is too long to quote in full

CT’s 310s were not, however, being used interchangeably with the Class 323s. There was an obvious hierarchy. The 323s were a first choice on local electrified routes, and the 310s came out when higher capacity was required – or when a 323 unexpectedly became unavailable. Rush hour services on local electrified routes were the classic hotbed of 310 activity in their final CT year.

 

[nw1]

In Stafford around 1983 and 1984 the locals were almost exclusively 304s.

These included a two-hourly (increasing to hourly round the peak) stopper to Manchester, plus very occasional services to Birmingham calling at all stations (peak only M-F, a few erratic services through the day on Sats). These provided the only services to Penkridge which consequently had a very limited service.

There was some interworking between the Manchester stoppers and Birmingham services, though in most cases the incoming Manchester stopper would form the next Manchester stopper out.

There were also very erratic services for Nuneaton or Rugby via the Trent Valley, also formed of 304s (one unit shuttling the line every 3 or 4 hours if I remember right).

The occasional service was a 310 (including some of the SO Birminghams, if I remember right) but 304s were the main class of unit in service.

 

[Lemmy99uk]

304 units were also regulars on the West Midlands locals, i.e. New Street to Wolverhampton, Intenational, Coventry and Walsall.

 

[jfollows]

In the 1970s, the 304s (AM4) were pretty much exclusively used on Crewe-Altrincham and Crewe-Liverpool services, as previously noted. For the Manchester-Macclesfield-Stoke-Stafford-Birmingham route the majority of stopping services were also operated by them, but the minority of services were operated by 310s (AM10) and these were booked workings so operated every day, for example the 16:10 and 17:30 Manchester-Macclesfield services were AM10 most years, having previously worked down from Birmingham.

As nw1 also said, on Summer Saturdays the normal local-hauled sets were "stolen" for holiday services, and so AM10s filled in between Birmingham and Manchester, in the same timings (which would have been impossible to sustain) with just a column note in the working timetable, on some services such as the 16:23 Manchester-Coventry, which was normally 86+Mark 1 on weekdays (my frequent service home from school at the time).

 

[gg1]

IIRC the service frequency for the Birmingham area EMU stoppers around 88-91ish was:

1tph Walsall to Wolverhampton
1tp/2h Walsall to Stafford
1tp/2h Walsall to Stoke
all combining to give a half hourly clockface service to Wolverhampton and hourly Stafford.
For at least some of that period there was also 1 train per day which ran all stations from Walsall to Manchester Piccadilly, earlier in the 80s it used to carry on from there to Altrincham but that had stopped in the period I remember.

New Street to Coventry was either hourly or half hourly, can't remember which, it wasn't a service I ever used.

Services could be either 304s or 310s, didn't seem to be a pattern as to which units were used on which services. By this time the 312s had been transferred south following the introduction of 317s on the Euston semi-fasts, which were themselves replaced with 321s after a few years.

 

[Ken H]

I think the 304s were procured for early WCML locals. They were allocated to CE which was a shed between Crewe station ant the route to Stoke
The 310s were for the southend end so West Mids and Brum -Euston stoppers
Some 312s were procured for the West Mids later, and were a sub class of the 312s on the locals out of Kings Cross, and I think on the GE

I have scanned a Rail multiple units stock book and put on Wayback Machine. But wifi where I am wont let me access. I will reply to this later with a link

 

[Ken H]

IIRC the service frequency for the Birmingham area EMU stoppers around 88-91ish was:

2ph Walsall to Wolverhampton
1tp/2h Walsall to Stafford
1tp/2h Walsall to Stoke
all combining to give a half hourly clockface service to Wolverhampton and hourly Stafford.
For at least some of that period there was also 1 train per day which ran all stations from Walsall to Manchester Piccadilly, earlier in the 80s it used to carry on from there to Altrincham but that had stopped in the period I remember.

New Street to Coventry was either hourly or half hourly, can't remember which, it wasn't a service I ever used.

Services could be either 304s or 310s, didn't seem to be a pattern as to which units were used on which services. By this time the 312s had been transferred south following the introduction of 317s on the Euston semi-fasts, which were themselves replaced with 321s after a few years.

There was a all stations Rugby - Manchester 304 that ran late 1980s via trent valley. I caught it for work purposes often. 2 hour bouncy bouncy. It had spent the night in Rugby station north bay. I caught it at Atherstone

 

[Taunton]

If you were only allowed one sentence to describe it, then "304s north of Birmingham New Street and 310s south of there" would be pretty accurate, reflecting both the original ordering and actual usage. Towards their end the Cross-City line in Birmingham was electrified, and 304s turned up on that at the beginning as well.

There were of course exceptions. The only trip I ever made to Altrincham on the service from Manchester, around 1980, had a 310 turn up - never saw this again. Likewise just one 304 at the buffers at Euston.

There was also a slightly strange later batch from the late 1970s of just four Class 312, supposedly built for Birmingham area services, and in fact used around there fairly consistently; I don't recall seeing them ever in London or Manchester, but travelling through New Street you often saw one. Looked like a 310 but distinguishable by aluminium surrounds to the cab windows.I think the West Midlands PTE may have had some involvement with their purchase, so they were kept there.

 

[jfollows]

See

EMUs on WCML 70s to 2000s

I recognise the 304s (mainly Midlands / N West) and 310s , but for a while 312s were on certain services between West Mids and Euston. When were these phased out? mid 90s? 304s were very bumpy, 310s less so. 350s are luxury in comparison. I recall 310s and 312s mainly Brum/Rugby to Euston.

www.railforums.co.uk

which repeats a lot of what's been said here and adds more.

Essentially a 312 did make it to Manchester once, and the 310/AM10 on the Altrincham line was unusual but clearly not impossible.

 

[Magdalia]

There was also a slightly strange later batch from the late 1970s of just four Class 312, supposedly built for Birmingham area services, and in fact used around there fairly consistently; I don't recall seeing them ever in London or Manchester, but travelling through New Street you often saw one. Looked like a 310 but distinguishable by aluminium surrounds to the cab windows.I think the West Midlands PTE may have had some involvement with their purchase, so they were kept there.

The four class 312s, 312201-204, were ordered very specifically for the Birmingham New Street-Birmingham International shuttle service that was introduced when the National Exhibition Centre opened.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

To complete the picture, surplus Cl 303s ex Glasgow appeared principally on Glossop / Hadfield services after the route was converted to 25kV AC in 1984, but they also turned up on Crewe - Altrincham services. Considering they were of the same vintage as the 304s they seemed rather more modern and stylish! After privatisation, Cl 309 'Clacton' units also made an appearance.

 

[gg1]

If you were only allowed one sentence to describe it, then "304s north of Birmingham New Street and 310s south of there" would be pretty accurate, reflecting both the original ordering and actual usage. Towards their end the Cross-City line in Birmingham was electrified, and 304s turned up on that at the beginning as well.

I'd say that rule only really applied prior to the 317s taking over operation of the Euston - MK/Northampton/Brum semi fasts in 1987. My observation in the late 80s was 310s and 304s seemed to be used interchangeably on all the Birmingham stoppers. 304s north of Stoke quite possibly still applied then, though at this point there were also a number of 303s operating around Manchester too.

 

[nw1]

As nw1 also said, on Summer Saturdays the normal local-hauled sets were "stolen" for holiday services, and so AM10s filled in between Birmingham and Manchester, in the same timings (which would have been impossible to sustain) with just a column note in the working timetable, on some services such as the 16:23 Manchester-Coventry, which was normally 86+Mark 1 on weekdays (my frequent service home from school at the time).

I was mostly referring to the Saturday-only daytime stopping services from Stafford to Birmingham in my post above, to be clear - but yes, as previously discussed in other threads the 310s did indeed operate a small number of usually loco-hauled fast "XC" services on Summer Saturdays.

One example which I clearly remember was the 1240 Stafford-Birmingham fast in 1984 (which must have been around 1140-ish from Manchester).

 

[jfollows]

I was mostly referring to the Saturday-only daytime stopping services from Stafford to Birmingham in my post above, to be clear - but yes, as previously discussed in other threads the 310s did indeed operate a small number of usually loco-hauled fast "XC" services on Summer Saturdays.

One example which I clearly remember was the 1240 Stafford-Birmingham fast in 1984 (which must have been around 1140-ish from Manchester).

Ah, OK, interesting.
The 12:40 was 1G06 11:39 Piccadilly to New Street, and was at least timed properly in that it was booked to leave Stafford at 12r43, meaning advertised departure time 12:40 but it lost something like 3 minutes compared to the normal E315 weekday and winter Saturday service.

 

[nw1]

In the 1970s, the 304s (AM4) were pretty much exclusively used on Crewe-Altrincham and Crewe-Liverpool services, as previously noted.

As I think I've mentioned before I believe the 304 was the first ever type of train I travelled on, for as a small child we made occasional trips on the Altrincham route around probably 1976 or 1977-ish.

Was too young to take an interest in the motive power at that age but I think I have a vague memory of the very large lights affixed to the ceiling. Or at least, when I saw 304s again in 1983 or 1984, the lights brought back vague memories from early in childhood.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Aug 2024 ==

Ah, OK, interesting.
The 12:40 was 1G06 11:39 Piccadilly to New Street, and was at least timed properly in that it was booked to leave Stafford at 12r43, meaning advertised departure time 12:40 but it lost something like 3 minutes compared to the normal E315 weekday and winter Saturday service.

And presumably outside of summer Saturdays the WTT was 1240.

I spent a few days in Stafford in August 1984 and visited the station twice, once on a Summer Saturday (the 18th to be exact) and once the following Monday: and distinctly recall the service being 310 on the former and 86+Mk-II on the latter.

 

[Transilien]

How common was electric loco haulage on these types of services? Or was it ever a thing?

 

[nw1]

To complete the picture, surplus Cl 303s ex Glasgow appeared principally on Glossop / Hadfield services after the route was converted to 25kV AC in 1984, but they also turned up on Crewe - Altrincham services. Considering they were of the same vintage as the 304s they seemed rather more modern and stylish! After privatisation, Cl 309 'Clacton' units also made an appearance.

I definitely saw a 303 at some point in probably summer 1984, though it could have been either at Altrincham or Stafford as I visited both that year.

 

[jfollows]

As I think I've mentioned before I believe the 304 was the first ever type of train I travelled on, for as a small child we made occasional trips on the Altrincham route around probably 1976 or 1977-ish.

Was too young to take an interest in the motive power at that age but I think I have a vague memory of the very large lights affixed to the ceiling. Or at least, when I saw 304s again in 1983 or 1984, the lights brought back vague memories from early in childhood.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Aug 2024 ==



And presumably outside of summer Saturdays the WTT was 1240.

I spent a few days in Stafford in August 1984 and visited the station twice, once on a Summer Saturday (the 18th to be exact) and once the following Monday: and distinctly recall the service being 310 on the former and 86+Mk-II on the latter.

Pictures - see https://www.mattypsrailwaypics.com/uploads/9/3/9/5/9395206/8472728_orig.jpg
I went to school on them starting September 1970: Poynton to Cheadle Hulme.

WTT: 12:40.5, which would have been advertised as 12:40, you round down the half minutes for departure times and round them up for arrival times.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Aug 2024 ==

How common was electric loco haulage on these types of services? Or was it ever a thing?

If you mean Manchester-Birmingham, then everything. However the service was one every two hours, with the alternating hour's service being a Liverpool-Birmingham. BR hated using diesels under the wires, so that the York Mail changed from diesel to electric at Stockport and back to diesel again at Crewe.
Most fast Manchester-Birmingham services continued to Bristol and beyond, with loco change at Birmingham of course, usually swift because the diesel would go on the back of the train at the same time the electric came off the front. Later on with services via Coventry to Oxford and beyond some of the loco changes took place at Coventry.

 

[nw1]

Pictures - see https://www.mattypsrailwaypics.com/uploads/9/3/9/5/9395206/8472728_orig.jpg
I went to school on them starting September 1970: Poynton to Cheadle Hulme.

Yes they're the ones, though my memories from 1983/4 are much clearer than from the 70s.

WTT: 12:40.5, which would have been advertised as 12:40, you round down the half minutes for departure times and round them up for arrival times.

OK thanks, yes the rounding up or down works in the way I would expect.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Aug 2024 ==

How common was electric loco haulage on these types of services? Or was it ever a thing?

Do you mean the stoppers or the fasts?

IMX in the 80s the stoppers were purely EMUs, mostly 304s with some 310s as discussed above.

The fasts on the other hand,, as @jfollows said, were almost wholly loco-hauled, aside from the Summer Saturday 310 workings.

Birmingham-Manchester/Liverpool was almost wholly electric haulage in the 80s up to around 1985, except for some Sunday services when the wires were switched off for engineering works. From around 1986 a few services from the Reading direction towards Manchester or Liverpool were 47-hauled throughout, without the loco change in Birmingham.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Aug 2024 ==

If you mean Manchester-Birmingham, then everything. However the service was one every two hours, with the alternating hour's service being a Liverpool-Birmingham. BR hated using diesels under the wires, so that the York Mail changed from diesel to electric at Stockport and back to diesel again at Crewe.
Most fast Manchester-Birmingham services continued to Bristol and beyond, with loco change at Birmingham of course, usually swift because the diesel would go on the back of the train at the same time the electric came off the front. Later on with services via Coventry to Oxford and beyond some of the loco changes too place at Coventry.

To add to this: from the early-mid 80s the regular two-hour pattern on the route was increasingly disrupted so that by 1984 the pattern was quite irregular. Also in 1984 a few Bristol-Manchester/Liverpool services became HSTs.

 

[Transilien]

Do you mean the stoppers or the fasts?

I meant the stoppers.

 

[nw1]

I meant the stoppers.

Ah ok. As stated above, AFAIK these were always purely EMUs, certainly in "my day" in the mid-80s.

Conceivable there might have been the odd loco-hauled service early or late in the day for positioning purposes.

 

[jfollows]

I meant the stoppers.

There were some stoppers with AC electric + A/C Mark 2 in later years, well they were semi-fast commuter services, I'll see if I can dig them out. But otherwise all EMU.

 

[nw1]

There were some stoppers with AC electric + A/C Mark 2 in later years, well they were semi-fast commuter services, I'll see if I can dig them out. But otherwise all EMU.

Not locos admittedly, but express units: as mentioned above one interesting feature in early privatisation were the peak additional Manchester-Birmingham fasts plugging a gap between Virgin services, operated by 309s. These were operated by First North Western, IIRC.

 

[Transilien]

There were some stoppers with AC electric + A/C Mark 2 in later years, well they were semi-fast commuter services

Interesting, I can't think of any other commuter trains that have been ran by electric locos in the UK.

 

[jfollows]

Not locos admittedly, but express units: as mentioned above one interesting feature in early privatisation were the peak additional Manchester-Birmingham fasts plugging a gap between Virgin services, operated by 309s. These were operated by First North Western, IIRC.

I think the loco-hauled semi-fasts came before the AM9/309 services, they did exist for a year or two and may have been because of a general shortage of EMUs, there was one for the Crewe line and one for Stoke from memory.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Aug 2024 ==

Interesting, I can't think of any other commuter trains that have been ran by electric locos in the UK.

That's a different topic I think! But Chertsey-Waterloo springs to mind ....... (https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...oco-hauled-service.224122/page-3#post-5414517)

 

[Helvellyn]

Before the 323s came on the scene a number of 308 units operated the cross-city services alongside 304s after electrification. A number of 308s were then facelifted and went off to West Yorkshire.

Around Manchester some 305 units were refurbished. This allowed withdrawal of the 303s and to support before the 323s arrived. Some gained GMPTE livery for airport and Glossop/Hatfield services, others Regional Railways for wider use. If I remember correctly a couple of 304s also got Regional Railways livery.

 

[Ken H]

I think the 304s were procured for early WCML locals. They were allocated to CE which was a shed between Crewe station ant the route to Stoke
The 310s were for the southend end so West Mids and Brum -Euston stoppers
Some 312s were procured for the West Mids later, and were a sub class of the 312s on the locals out of Kings Cross, and I think on the GE

I have scanned a Rail multiple units stock book and put on Wayback Machine. But wifi where I am wont let me access. I will reply to this later with a link

1990 rolling stock book

May1990 Rail Electric Unit Stock Book UK : Rail magazine : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

May1990 Rail Electric Unit Stock Book UK

archive.org

Link goes to scanned image of a 1990 Rail Magazine electric multiple unit stock book

 

[Ken H]

Interesting, I can't think of any other commuter trains that have been ran by electric locos in the UK.

Northampton Cobblers. Kings Cross - Peterborough with Cl89