30 Options for Castlefield but DfT rules out extra platforms for Piccadilly

[Jorge Da Silva]

According to the latest version of modern railways (April 2019, page 14) more than 30 options are being assessed for the Castlefield Corridor.

Some options include:

• An additional platform at Salford Crescent
• Turnback sidings to the East of Manchester Victoria
• Relocation of Windsor Bridge Junction to the north
• Loops on the Cheshire Line Committee and Chat Moss Lines
• Grade Separation of Ordsall Lane Junction
• A reduction of the number of platforms at Oxford Road to Three and Electrification to Stalybridge
• Conversion of the Atherton Line to Metrolink

 

[Glenn1969]

Electrification of which line to Stalybridge? The Ashton line is supposed to be included in the Transpennine Route Upgrade

Also how do any of these projects allow Northern to fulfil its TSR commitments and run more trains across the chord?

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Electrification of which line to Stalybridge? The Ashton line is supposed to be included in the Transpennine Route Upgrade

Also how do any of these projects allow Northern to fulfil its TSR commitments and run more trains across the chord?

Package C (the previous plan) can only go ahead if they can prove the case. The options considered so far deliver little benefits, and are not that good. I assume for electrification from Piccadilly To Stalybridge (I am guessing, it does not say)

 

[Glenn1969]

I would argue they deliver no benefit. And if Package C is unaffordable despite apparently being passed before I hope they don't then restate their commitment to funding Crossrail 2 (more money soent on London. Manchester capacity needed sorting at least 10 years ago not if/when HS2/HS3 open (I am aware Grayling is trying to link it to NPR but no one right now knows how long Grayling will be around for- I keep seeing his name linked to Brexit resignation)

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

I heard Digital Signalling (i.e. ETCS Level 3) had been previously suggested as a cheaper solution to new platforms but imo the only solution for Castlefield is Package C

 

[Glenn1969]

I agree- the new platforms are badly needed

 

[Geeves]

Extra platforms and reconstruction of Salford Crescent station to 4 platforms plus the remodel of Windsor Bridge S and N should definately not be in the "Too difficult" pile. Grade Sepration of the the Liverpool and Bolton lines at Ordsall Lane would help too. You could tunnel the Chat Moss lines below and get rid of all those conflicting moves, Move all the Liverpool trains to Vic including the North Wales Coast, easy. Leave a flat juction for adhoc moves only.

The Chord would work much better once you dont have trains queuing all around Manchester on either end of it.

 

[Aictos]

Why would they want less platforms at Oxford Road?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Extra platforms and reconstruction of Salford Crescent station to 4 platforms plus the remodel of Windsor Bridge S and N should definately not be in the "Too difficult" pile. Grade Sepration of the the Liverpool and Bolton lines at Ordsall Lane would help too. You could tunnel the Chat Moss lines below and get rid of all those conflicting moves, Move all the Liverpool trains to Vic including the North Wales Coast, easy. Leave a flat juction for adhoc moves only.

Are we not going to hit a situation where Vic ends up full then, though? Will we also need Exchange?

Vic is also a quite unpleasant station, like New St but without the nice concourse and with far more smelly DMUs in a poorly ventilated area, not to mention the poor facilities in terms of retail, ticketing and the absolutely disgusting (despite chargeable) toilets. OK, 13/14 are not nice, but does Vic need a rebuild too?

 

[yorksrob]

Again the truly dreadful idea of turning the Atherton line into a tram rears its ugly head.

What do we have to do to kill it off, once and for all.

It must be clear to anyone with a brain cell that the additional platforms at Piccadilly are a necessity.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Again the truly dreadful idea of turning the Atherton line into a tram rears its ugly head.

What do we have to do to kill it off, once and for all.

I must admit I do agree with it. But it has no bearing on 13/14 as it doesn't run to Picc anyway.

It must be clear to anyone with a brain cell that the additional platforms at Piccadilly are a necessity.

I agree, and the mind boggles as to the rubbish they are coming up with to try to justify not doing, despite having built that massive white elephant around Castlefield.

 

[yorksrob]

I agree, and the mind boggles as to the rubbish they are coming up with to try to justify not doing, despite having built that massive white elephant around Castlefield.

Indeed. These proposed 'solutions' are a perfect example of fiddling with the deckchairs while Rome burns.

 

[Glenn1969]

They are also why I'm opposed to nationalisation. There is clearly no money to do anything that actually needs doing outside London. Don't forget we are still waiting for the announcement about the scale and scope of the Transpennine Route Upgrade that was supposed to have begun by now

 

[yorksrob]

If they can't manage a couple of platforms at Piccadilly, it just shows that all this 'Northern Powerhouse Rail' business is a load of old flannel.

 

[LOL The Irony]

I agree, and the mind boggles as to the rubbish they are coming up with to try to justify not doing, despite having built that massive white elephant around Castlefield.

Hopefully grayling's replacement will get rid of his puppy dog (haynes) at Network Rail.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If they can't manage a couple of platforms at Piccadilly, it just shows that all this 'Northern Powerhouse Rail' business is a load of old flannel.

Even as a now relatively long-time resident of (almost) the South, I worked out that Government investment in the North was a load of old flannel years ago

 

[LOL The Irony]

Even as a now relatively long-time resident of (almost) the South, I worked out that Government investment in the North was a load of old flannel years ago

The kicker comes when you realise that it's an island platform that could be built with little to no disruption to the day to day running of trains, meaning there are few, if any reasons not to build 15/16.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The kicker comes when you realise that it's an island platform that could be built with little to no disruption to the day to day running of trains, meaning there are few, if any reasons not to build 15/16.

I cannot think of a single reason not to build it.

If funding was an issue, it should have been built instead of the Ordsall Chord, and that added later when money became available. (I only oppose the Chord without P15/16 and the Oxford Road enhancements - with them it is probably of overall benefit, but of far less benefit than those two pieces of work).

More to the point, it needs building now, before someone shoves a few blocks of posh flats up on what is presently basically wasteland such that it becomes impossible to build it.

 

[LOL The Irony]

I cannot think of a single reason not to build it.

If funding was an issue, it should have been built instead of the Ordsall Chord, and that added later when money became available. (I only oppose the Chord without P15/16 and the Oxford Road enhancements - with them it is probably of overall benefit, but of far less benefit than those two pieces of work).

More to the point, it needs building now, before someone shoves a few blocks of posh flats up on what is presently basically wasteland such that it becomes impossible to build it.

I've said it countless times, they both should've been opened at the same time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've said it countless times, they both should've been opened at the same time.

I agree wholeheartedly.

 

[Starmill]

In my opinion, all of these options should have been considered a decade ago as co-requisite with the Ordsall Chord in the as-was Northern Hub plan.

To me it seems that Manchester Piccadilly 15 & 16, reconstruction of Oxford Road with associated closure of Deansgate platforms and grade separation of Ordsall Lane Junction and additional Salford Crescent platforms might all be neccasary to simply deliver on the service that has already been specified. This is before we come to any future aspirations.

How it was ever considered that the committed levels of service could possibly operate reliably without these enhancements is beyond me. It's also a damming indictment of the Minister and the myopic Conservative Party driving the country's regional growth aspirations into the ground that they only will not do this because they make up the excuse that there's not enough money. Note that the complaint is about outright cost, not value for money. Same argument as with MML Electrification, the Department admitted it had a good case, but abandoned it anyway because "there's not enough money", which is a purely political restriction.

If there isn't enough funding for Network Rail infrastructure projects to allow committed services to run, then provide an increase in funding. It's your prior commitment to run these services. Another firm reason not to vote in support of this disaster of a government.

 

[edwin_m]

I must admit I do agree with it. But it has no bearing on 13/14 as it doesn't run to Picc anyway.

It would remove the junction at the north end of Salford Crescent, thus allowing platform lenghtening and longer trains on the Bolton corridor. This might result in fewer trains through P13/14.

Having said that it would be a really expensive scheme due to the need for a new tramline to link the city centre with somewhere beyond Salford Crescent. Unless there are numerous other benefits I can't see it having a better BCR than P15/16.

 

[The Planner]

Hopefully grayling's replacement will get rid of his puppy dog (haynes) at Network Rail.

He has been in the job 5 minutes, and he is highly unlikely to be worse than Carne in understanding how the railway works.

 

[LOL The Irony]

He has been in the job 5 minutes, and he is highly unlikely to be worse than Carne in understanding how the railway works.

He's still there because he's a yes man.

 

[The Planner]

"still there" ?? he has been there about 6 months! at least he hasn't tried the sell Grayling snake oil like Carne did with Digital Railway.

 

[yorksrob]

It would remove the junction at the north end of Salford Crescent, thus allowing platform lenghtening and longer trains on the Bolton corridor. This might result in fewer trains through P13/14.

Having said that it would be a really expensive scheme due to the need for a new tramline to link the city centre with somewhere beyond Salford Crescent. Unless there are numerous other benefits I can't see it having a better BCR than P15/16.

A less overpriced and less counterproductive option would be to move the junction between the Atherton and Bolton lines East of where it is today and rebuild Salford crescent in the V of the junction.

 

[edwin_m]

A less overpriced and less counterproductive option would be to move the junction between the Atherton and Bolton lines East of where it is today and rebuild Salford crescent in the V of the junction.

That would mean moving the station quite a long way north to allow for the length of the junction itself plus signalling overlaps. It was looked at a few years ago but rejected, for that reason I think.

 

[MarkyT]

Re Atherton Metrolink: That could also allow conversion of the Leigh guided bus corridor to light rail, via a short connecting link near Walkden.

 

[Greybeard33]

Vic is also a quite unpleasant station, like New St but without the nice concourse and with far more smelly DMUs in a poorly ventilated area, not to mention the poor facilities in terms of retail, ticketing and the absolutely disgusting (despite chargeable) toilets. OK, 13/14 are not nice, but does Vic need a rebuild too?

As a matter of fact, the toilets at Manchester Victoria are free now, and reasonably salubrious. But hardly relevant to the need for Package C!

 

[yorksrob]

That would mean moving the station quite a long way north to allow for the length of the junction itself plus signalling overlaps. It was looked at a few years ago but rejected, for that reason I think.

The plus side is that you might more easily be able to serve the Pennington area as well.