225s upgrade

[junglejames]

Welcome to the modern era there's a reason that manufacturers opt for push-button operated doors now and not pressure pad activated ones. And for the majority of passengers (ie who aren't looking through rose tinted glasses) that is a good thing.

Sorry, I always thought that was a bag i was carrying. Obviously not. Apparently it was rose tinted specs i was carrying all this time.

Must go now. Got to go and fill my rose tinted specs up with clothes for my next trip.
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From the manufacturers point of view - simpler, easier to maintain, doesn't wear out as quickly.

From the passenger's point of view - doesn't stop working when the train is busy and luggage nearby, quieter mechanism, only opens when you need it to or want it to.

I agree that many examples today are p*ss poor, such as the Voyagers, but a well designed mechanism that doesn't shut on people will be the optimum solution.

And I really don't think pressing a raised button is that much of a hardship.

Glad you got the main reason in first. Cheapness over whats best.

As for other reasons. They dont stop working when the train is busy. They still open and shut nicely. As for this supposed luggage. I have never seen a bag left in front of the doors. Ive seen it mentioned, but ive never seen it. Also, plenty of things wont work when people do things they shouldnt. Leave bags sitting on pressure pads, and the door stays open. Leave bags in front of the camera/ sensor, and the door again stays open. Have someone keep pressing the button again and again foir the sake of it, and the door opens and closes all the time. All things that should not be happening, but cause annoyances. Not because of the design, but because of humans being stupid.
Even the best designs in the world can be annoying if humans are stupid.

So getting away from ease of maintenance for a while, lets have a look at pros and cons for passengers.
Pros of floor sensors- Much easier when carrying bags. In fact, much easier pretty much all the time. Wont shut in your face, so long as you keep your feet on the pad.

Cons- Stupid humans who may block exits with bags (unlikely). Enthusiasts hopping from window to window and not stepping over the pad (thats what i always do), again unlikely. May break down slightly more often.

Pros of buttons- May not break down quite as much

Cons- Stupid humans who may decide to keep pressing the button again and again (unlikely). Good chance it will shut in your face.

So basically, the pads have more pros, and virtually all the cons are down to stupid humans.
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If the 91s were re-geared from 140mph to 110mph they would go like a stabbed rat and leave a 90 for dead. I still have a sneaking suspicion this will happen when IEP comes along :P

Max continuous output:
90 - 5,000hp
91 - 6,300hp

Adam

So not only are you refurbishing the 91s now, but you will later regear them for 110mph running. Why refurbish them now? Seems daft doing it twice. You are also spending rediculous amounts of money to make them suitable for the GE, when you could spend no money keeping them suitable for the ECML.

Oh, and when IEP comes along its only replacing HSTs. So do you intend to reduce capacity? Or are you intednding to build more of these ultra expensive Japanese railbuses?

So you have to spend money on the 225s, and purchase new trains which are more expensive than a fleet of TRAXX locos for the GE. Mr Baker will no doubt suggest you for a knighthood, but the countries bank manager wont.

 

[Blindtraveler]

well said that man!

 

[ainsworth74]

The comparison is with the class 90s, which are also 4 axle Bo-Bo locomotives. A re-geared 91 shouldn't be any less effective than a 90.

And sticking with comparisons a 91 has a lot more power to put down than a 90 meaning it will have a much greater propensity to slip and slide whilst trying to put all that power down. Also I'd suggest looking at what the honourable gentleman directly above you said

Oh, and when IEP comes along its only replacing HSTs.

So far. Options remain in the IEP contract for IC225 replacement.

 

[Eccles]

The latest Railway Herald has an update on the duplex pan fitting on page 7, and a photo of the thing in place.

Seems they've had to take a sort of semi-circle out of the blunt end cab roof to get it fitted, otherwise it doesn't look much different.

Don't suppose anyone knows what diagram it's on today do they? (91114)

Cheers

 

[AndyLandy]

And sticking with comparisons a 91 has a lot more power to put down than a 90 meaning it will have a much greater propensity to slip and slide whilst trying to put all that power down. Also I'd suggest looking at what the honourable gentleman directly above you said

Oh, I can quite believe that the 91s wouldn't be suitable on the GEML. If nothing else, the 91s are only a couple of years junior to the 90s, so it's not like there's much to be gained there anyway!

So far. Options remain in the IEP contract for IC225 replacement.

I have it on reasonably good authority that the IC225 sets are pretty much destined for the MML. They'll have to be replaced by something on the ECML. I expect that will be IEPs.

 

[dstrat]

I think when I made the point about the problem with the doors is because enough of them don't work properly! Randomly opening and closing.

So a floor sensor may be great - but as of right now there is something wrong.

 

[ainsworth74]

I have it on reasonably good authority that the IC225 sets are pretty much destined for the MML.

Care to share? Or at least hint at

They'll have to be replaced by something on the ECML. I expect that will be IEPs.

Yeah I think it will be as well. If for no other reason that from around 2017/18 Hitachi's order book for their new factory is looking very bare. So an order of more IEPs on the ECML buys another year or two for that plant.

 

[AndyLandy]

Care to share? Or at least hint at

It was from a discussion I'd had with some railway folks on Twitter. The general thinking was that allegedly the ECML is somehow more "prestigious" than the MML, so rather than buy new electric traction for the MML electrification, the preferred approach would be to instead buy it for the ECML and cascade the IC225s to the newly-electrified MML.

It certainly sounds like a reasonably likely prospect. MML electrification and the upcoming DDA legislation means that something will need to be done about the EMT HST sets. If it's not going to get IEP directly, they'd need to go elsewhere to displace something suitable for the MML.

30+ IEP sets would displace the whole IC225 fleet, which in-turn would retire the EMT HST fleet and free up some Meridians, which would likely be cascaded to XC to increase capacity.

 

[Darandio]

At which point does a "discussion" on Twitter become "reasonably good authority" that the sets are destined for the MML?

To be fair, it's a "discussion" that has been going on for a good few years now.

 

[AndyLandy]

At which point does a "discussion" on Twitter become "reasonably good authority" that the sets are destined for the MML?

I consider it so. By all means feel free to disagree with me.

 

[captainbigun]

I'm sorry but the discussions that would entail 'reasonable authority' do not happen on Twitter.

Unless you have sat in a room with DfT, ROSCO, vehicle maintainer and East Coast you haven't got the slightest incling as to what's happening.

There are numerous discussions going on arround 225 and their future, it is far from a simple equation.

 

[AndyLandy]

I'm sorry but the discussions that would entail 'reasonable authority' do not happen on Twitter.

Unless you have sat in a room with DfT, ROSCO, vehicle maintainer and East Coast you haven't got the slightest incling as to what's happening.

There are numerous discussions going on arround 225 and their future, it is far from a simple equation.

With all due respect, why should I rate your comments on an Internet forum as more or less valid than those of folks on Twitter?

 

[captainbigun]

Fair comment, though anyone who has an ounce of understanding on business generally and how it is conducted would realise that such discussions are commercially sensitive, and most definitely do not happen on open internet fora!

 

[AndyLandy]

Fair comment, though anyone who has an ounce of understanding on business generally and how it is conducted would realise that such discussions are commercially sensitive, and most definitely do not happen on open internet fora!

Perhaps, although I'd be surprised if anything this superficial would be commercially sensitive. It's certainly a possibility that the IC225s could move to the MML. Clearly it's far more likely than them ending up on the GEML, as has been pointed out earlier in this thread. Of course, anything could happen between then and now, MML electrification is a long way off, any number of things could have changed by then.

Anyway, many thanks for your input on this thread, and no hard feelings by the way. I'm fairly new to this and working out who are experts and who are merely self-proclaimed "experts" is tricky, both here and on Twitter. I'm no expert myself, so I'm happy to be corrected and have things I've overlooked explained to me, that's how I learn.

 

[junglejames]

It was from a discussion I'd had with some railway folks on Twitter.

I also once heard from people working for SouthEastern that GNER/ Mr Garnetts team were definitely going to win the SouthEastern franchise. Was a done deal apparently. Never happened though.
These discussions you hear are often far from the truth.
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Perhaps, although I'd be surprised if anything this superficial would be commercially sensitive.

But it isnt superficial.
The amount of money involved in IEP, not to mention how unwanted it is on the railway, makes anything to do with it far from superficial.

Anyway, many thanks for your input on this thread, and no hard feelings by the way. I'm fairly new to this and working out who are experts and who are merely self-proclaimed "experts" is tricky, both here and on Twitter. I'm no expert myself, so I'm happy to be corrected and have things I've overlooked explained to me, that's how I learn.

The Capts our man on anything AC! Ask him nicely about 90s. He loves them really

 

[AndyLandy]

I also once heard from people working for SouthEastern that GNER/ Mr Garnetts team were definitely going to win the SouthEastern franchise. Was a done deal apparently. Never happened though.
These discussions you hear are often far from the truth.

Oh absolutely, but my comment above stands, those discussions aren't all that different from the ones that happen on here. We can't know for definite what will happen. Perhaps someone will pull the plug on IEP entirely, maybe MML electrification will be cancelled, maybe someone will successfully lobby the government to amend the DDA legislation and the HSTs will keep going. All fairly unlikely, but not impossible.
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The Capts our man on anything AC! Ask him nicely about 90s. He loves them really

That makes two of us then! I miss the days of 87s and 90s on the WCML. Although I do have to admit that the Pendolinos do provide faster and more regular service patterns.

Anyway, we appear to be veering wildly offtopic at this point. Wasn't this thread initially about new pantographs for the Class 91 locomotives?

 

[Eagle]

That makes two of us then! I miss the days of 87s and 90s on the WCML.

There are still 90s on the WCML. :P

 

[AndyLandy]

There are still 90s on the WCML. :P

Haha, OK, yes, you can have that. I guess you can even argue plural, since there's the Pretendolino set as well as the sleepers. Not to mention any freight there might be (Assuming any of it's hauled by 90s. I believe it's mostly 86s?)

 

[junglejames]

That makes two of us then! I miss the days of 87s and 90s on the WCML.

Ah, heaven. Head out the window, listening to the 87s powering up as we pull out of Oxenholme The Lake District.

Although I do have to admit that the Pendolinos do provide faster and more regular service patterns.

and now back down to earth with a bump. Or more accurately, listening to the radio in my car as I drive up the M6 everytime i go to Scotland.

 

[AndyLandy]

Ah, heaven. Head out the window, listening to the 87s powering up as we pull out of Oxenholme The Lake District.

The day the last Mk3 is withdrawn will be a very sad day indeed. I have many fond memories of watching the world go by out of a droplight window on a Mk3 carriage. It's a shame that I rarely get to travel where the Mk3s currently operate.

 

[junglejames]

So far. Options remain in the IEP contract for IC225 replacement.

But the numbers ordered have been reduced as costs have risen. Would you spend twice as much on new rolling stock just so you could satisfy a certain map boy even further. He has managed to deceive Villiers and co. but not sure he will succeed any further. Anyway, think he has been moved on.

Honestly, I think they will eventually realise they have been had by the so called experts in their own department.

 

[captainbigun]

Lets's hope Laidlaw opens the tin on map boy's poo tube.

 

[AndyLandy]

Honestly, I think they will eventually realise they have been had by the so called experts in their own department.

I guess I should feel less bad about not always being able to identify experts on here if the DfT can't even manage it themselves!

 

[junglejames]

Lets's hope Laidlaw opens the tin on map boy's poo tube.

We sir, can only hope.
I still think a Chilternisation of the Mk3s, and new electric locos would do the trick. The diesels will already be here in the form of 68s.
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I guess I should feel less bad about not always being able to identify experts on here if the DfT can't even manage it themselves!

The DfT struggle to identify anything. I think the fact they identify with idiots is more a coincidence!!

 

[ainsworth74]

Forgive me but who's map boy?

 

[Pumbaa]

Forgive me but who's map boy?

Sodding Stuart Baker and his sodding bionic duckweed Japanese poo-tube.

Ie the IEP.

 

[ainsworth74]

Ahh the one guy that actually wanted IEP. Now I understand.

 

[Oswyntail]

Sodding Stuart Baker and his sodding bionic duckweed Japanese poo-tube.

Ie the IEP.

I suspect this is enthusiast-talk from a parallel universe:roll:

 

[starrymarkb]

I was wondering where it came from? Map Boy? Poo Tube? Isn't that a Pr0n site you don't want to visit that may feature 2 girls and cup...

Not everyone is clued up on the in crowd's in jokes...

 

[jopsuk]

Did anyone else understand what he meant at all? I certainly didn't.