225s upgrade

[junglejames]

Eh? Have you tried pressing those sodding buttons on the doors when you have an arm full of teas and coffees? It can’t be done. Madness I tell you. :roll:

They had push buttons on the internal doors when first built but they were changed to the much more sensible foot pad sensors after a period in operation.

I guess the work will be rolled up into the standard 10 year vehicle overhaul. Did Wabtec do the Mallard conversion works at Doncaster?

Yes they were done at Donny.

Totally agree regarding the vestibule doors/ push buttons etc. Hate the push buttons. The foot sensor is brilliant. Especially when i have a large bag.
Ive seen people complain because the door would never shut if bags were in front of the door! Well blow me down, ive a funny feeling bags arent meant to be kept sitting in front of the door!

Feet sensors everytime, and if i was ever designing a train, they would always be used instead of buttons. One of the most reliable forms of automatic doors. Cameras can never see you in time, and you end up reaching the door with it still shut!

 

[Aictos]

I know it won't happen, but I'd like to see to standardisation with the HSTs- convert coach K into a Standard coach G, and turn H around to be a 1st class coach J. Standardise the seat layout, at least of the reservable seats.

No, if anything the TGS should be converted to First Class and swapped with a First Trailer converted to Standard Class then convert J to Standard Class and Convert G to First Class so coaches J and G are swapped around.

This would lead to standardisation with the 91s, least that way the guard and the luggage compartment will always be at the London end unless its running in reverse formation.

If nothing else happens then the TGS should still be converted to First Class and have a First Trailer converted to Standard Class, so just swap the carriages round.

 

[jopsuk]

As someone that occasionally takes a bike on EC, having the Guard's van at the same end of both formations would definitely be a boon!

 

[dstrat]

Are you guys sure its a foot sensor? Because that would sound like the best idea - but I thought it was an optical sensor just at the top of the door? The thing certainly looks like one!

 

[aylesbury]

The refurb is probably happenning because the units will be cascaded when the IEP takes over on the ECML .Hopefully they will be a lot brighter inside than now and have more durable fabrics,when I traveled on them I thought them tatty and dirty .Any ideas just which route these units could go to?

 

[AndyLandy]

Any ideas just which route these units could go to?

This:

I heard it suggested that IEPs would be ordered for the ECML so that the IC225 sets could be cascaded to the MML. Certainly something will need to be provided for MML electrification (assuming it all happens according to plan)

Or the Greater Anglia Intercity services. Possibly even both, if there are enough IC225 sets.

 

[tbtc]

I heard it suggested that IEPs would be ordered for the ECML so that the IC225 sets could be cascaded to the MML. Certainly something will need to be provided for MML electrification (assuming it all happens according to plan)

Or the Greater Anglia Intercity services. Possibly even both, if there are enough IC225 sets.

Not quite enough for both.

IIRC EMT have forty HSTs/ 222s (but some 222s are doubled up).

 

[AndyLandy]

Not quite enough for both.

IIRC EMT have forty HSTs/ 222s (but some 222s are doubled up).

I guess it depends on just how much of the MML gets wires. Do we know what the current split of HSTs/222s is? Maybe there are enough IC225s to replace all 15 90/Mk3 rakes on the GEML and the HST sets on the MML, leaving the 222s alone.

 

[tbtc]

I guess it depends on just how much of the MML gets wires. Do we know what the current split of HSTs/222s is? Maybe there are enough IC225s to replace all 15 90/Mk3 rakes on the GEML and the HST sets on the MML, leaving the 222s alone.

I think it's something like eleven sets required for the Sheffield diagrams and nine for the Nottingham ones, plus three for Corby, but I'm not sure about the interworking (there are a few peak services which the HSTs are required for, hence them sitting idle for a lot of the day).

 

[DarloRich]

Are you guys sure its a foot sensor? Because that would sound like the best idea - but I thought it was an optical sensor just at the top of the door? The thing certainly looks like one!

I am sure it is a foot pad - you can see the outline in the more worn carpets.

 

[AndyLandy]

I think it's something like eleven sets required for the Sheffield diagrams and nine for the Nottingham ones, plus three for Corby, but I'm not sure about the interworking (there are a few peak services which the HSTs are required for, hence them sitting idle for a lot of the day).

Do we know if all of those routes are slated for electrification?

According to Wikipedia (source of all Fact™ on the Internet), EMT currently has 24 HST power cars (I read that as 12 trainsets) and 22 Meridian sets (of unspecified length) and some Sprinter stock. If you work on the basis that all you want to do is replace the HSTs, you could do that with 12 IC225s. Give the route 15, and you could either improve the service patterns, or possibly free up some Sprinter stock (assuming there are suitable services -- I'm no expert on the MML). You'd have to accept that some diesel-under-the-wires is inevitable, but I don't think that's actually a huge problem, it's still an improvement over a completely-diesel railway.

 

[ainsworth74]

Do we know if all of those routes are slated for electrification?

As far as I'm aware MML electrification will cover Bedford - Nottingham/Corby/Sheffield.

and 22 Meridian sets (of unspecified length)

I believe they are formed up as 4x4-car, 17x5-car and 6x7-car units.

or possibly free up some Sprinter stock (assuming there are suitable services -- I'm no expert on the MML).

Apart from special events the Sprinter services have no interworking at all with the 222s and HSTs as they're focused on short distance local services and the Liverpool - Norwich service.

 

[ash39]

Decent article in Rail magazine, looks like 91114 has already been fitted with the dual pan and will be the guinea pig. It was due back into service yesterday,anyone on TRUST able to confirm? If i know what workings it's on tonight,assuming it's passing York, I'll go get a photo.

As it was a blue loco I'm thinking it may have had a repaint too, as the no2 cab roof has to be reprofiled to accept the new pan

Anyone with workings please let me know asap!

 

[Eagle]

I heard it suggested that IEPs would be ordered for the ECML so that the IC225 sets could be cascaded to the MML. Certainly something will need to be provided for MML electrification (assuming it all happens according to plan). Or the Greater Anglia Intercity services. Possibly even both, if there are enough IC225 sets.

You could say that's a bit of a waste, as neither of those routes gets up to 125 mph. (Then again all stock currently working ICMML services is 125-capable, so no change.)

 

[dosxuk]

You could say that's a bit of a waste, as neither of those routes gets up to 125 mph. (Then again all stock currently working ICMML services is 125-capable, so no change.)

There are at least aspirations to increase line speeds on the MML to 125 in places. GEML will be lucky if it gets any 110 running before the 91s are sent to the scrap yard.

 

[junglejames]

225s to GA? Im sure the punters would love to hear of your plan to slow the Intercity services down. They wont head to GA. They are the wrong stock for the route, and arent needed.

They will no doubt stay where they are. At present IEP is not planned to replace the 225s. They are only down to replace the 125s, and as the cost of IEP has risen and risen, so the numbers ordered have dropped and dropped. Hence the chance of extra being ordered to replace 225s is very slim.
The upgrade to the 91s has been planned by EC. Can you really see EC splashing all this cash just to see the sets head off to the MM? Not very likely. Also, this is all part of ECs long term plan. They were looking at numerous options, including overhauling the 91s, or ordering brand new locos (TRAXX?). It seems as though the overhaul option may have won through. Can you really see EC ordering brand new locos, then seeing them head off elsewhere? No. So that wont be happening with this option either.

Regarding the vestibule doors. Mk2/3/4 all have floor sensors. Well except for those Mk3s refurbished by WSMR. They now have push buttons, and a pain they are to.

 

[Pumbaa]

Regarding the vestibule doors. Mk2/3/4 all have floor sensors. Well except for those Mk3s refurbished by WSMR. They now have push buttons, and a pain they are to.

Welcome to the modern era there's a reason that manufacturers opt for push-button operated doors now and not pressure pad activated ones. And for the majority of passengers (ie who aren't looking through rose tinted glasses) that is a good thing.

 

[DarloRich]

Welcome to the modern era there's a reason that manufacturers opt for push-button operated doors now and not pressure pad activated ones. And for the majority of passengers (ie who aren't looking through rose tinted glasses) that is a good thing.

but why? -A push button makes it harder to use the door!

 

[Pumbaa]

but why? -A push button makes it harder to use the door!

From the manufacturers point of view - simpler, easier to maintain, doesn't wear out as quickly.

From the passenger's point of view - doesn't stop working when the train is busy and luggage nearby, quieter mechanism, only opens when you need it to or want it to.

I agree that many examples today are p*ss poor, such as the Voyagers, but a well designed mechanism that doesn't shut on people will be the optimum solution.

And I really don't think pressing a raised button is that much of a hardship.

 

[dosxuk]

225s to GA? Im sure the punters would love to hear of your plan to slow the Intercity services down.

Who's suggested slowing what Intercity service down?

 

[captainbigun]

Who's suggested slowing what Intercity service down?

91 has inferior acceleration to 90 as its geared for 140. JJ is right there is zero chance of the 225s appearing on the GE. Units or refurb Mk3 plus TRAXX. If the money is available it'll be the former.

 

[DarloRich]

From the manufacturers point of view - simpler, easier to maintain, doesn't wear out as quickly.

From the passenger's point of view - doesn't stop working when the train is busy and luggage nearby, quieter mechanism, only opens when you need it to or want it to.

I agree that many examples today are p*ss poor, such as the Voyagers, but a well designed mechanism that doesn't shut on people will be the optimum solution.

And I really don't think pressing a raised button is that much of a hardship.

From my point of view it just seems harder to use if you are visual impaired, mobility impaired or suffering form some kind of disability. In these days if DDA compatibility this seems strange. More importantly though it is bloody hard to use a button if you are carrying two or three teas!

The biggest problem with the footpads is the bloody idiots who insist on leaving their house sized suitcases in the door way!

 

[ainsworth74]

More importantly though it is bloody hard to use a button if you are carrying two or three teas!

Foot pedal as well as button on the door as found on 222s?

 

[SprinterMan]

91 has inferior acceleration to 90 as its geared for 140. JJ is right there is zero chance of the 225s appearing on the GE. Units or refurb Mk3 plus TRAXX. If the money is available it'll be the former.

If the 91s were re-geared from 140mph to 110mph they would go like a stabbed rat and leave a 90 for dead. I still have a sneaking suspicion this will happen when IEP comes along :P

Max continuous output:
90 - 5,000hp
91 - 6,300hp

Adam

 

[Eagle]

If the 91s were re-geared from 140mph to 110mph they would go like a stabbed rat and leave a 90 for dead.

You mean lying dead and motionless? :?

 

[SprinterMan]

You mean lying dead and motionless? :?

Only if National Express were responsible for the refurbishment :P
I meant it in the same vein as in "Charges like a wounded bull".

Adam

 

[Blindtraveler]

From my point of view it just seems harder to use if you are visual impaired, mobility impaired or suffering form some kind of disability. In these days if DDA compatibility this seems strange. More importantly though it is bloody hard to use a button if you are carrying two or three teas!

The biggest problem with the footpads is the bloody idiots who insist on leaving their house sized suitcases in the door way!

*cough* Visually Impaired Person here, and I recall suggesting push buttons! I wij admit you have a point Re carrying a handfull of goodies from the buffet is a valid one and. to pv aöther angle on it - try and handfull of goodies and a white stick
my favourits are the buttons on the pendo internal coach doors where just a tickle is needed to open it.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
i agree with Ainsorth who suggests a 222 style foot controll and push button. Many of the foot pads on both MK3 and MK4 Vehicles dont work all that well resulting in noisf and drafts even if some old lady hasnt left her huge case on it!

 

[ash39]

They won't regear the 91's. It's ok theoretically saying it will improve acceleration, but how can they apply the power through just 4 axles? By all accounts they struggle as it is!

 

[captainbigun]

They won't re-gear the 91s because of the complex gearbox and the enormous cost.

 

[AndyLandy]

They won't regear the 91's. It's ok theoretically saying it will improve acceleration, but how can they apply the power through just 4 axles? By all accounts they struggle as it is!

The comparison is with the class 90s, which are also 4 axle Bo-Bo locomotives. A re-geared 91 shouldn't be any less effective than a 90.