22 class 185 units being released by TPE - Where could they go?

[edwin_m]

The major mileage based overhaul doesn't need to be past the scrapping date, it could be past the start of the lease for the 22 spare units. If that were the case the extra cost would be at a time that the ROSCO had a higher level of income, although it would mean that more would need doing. However, an new lease could well require some works above what is currently being done, so the two could be linked together.

This assumes the ROSCO has a different user signed up (or at least highly likely) for the units at some time in the future. Otherwise TPE isn't going to be paying leases on 22 units it doesn't need. And they may be heading for trouble if having found a user the units all have to go off for overhaul at the same time soon afterwards.

 

[keith1879]

They run as single units inside the peak. Doubled up units are few and far between, only a handful of services are strengthened

I think this is somewhat misleading. Between 1700 and 1800 there are 5 departures westwards from Leeds of which 2 are reliably 6 cars - I aim for one or the other every night because they are the Stalybridge services. We seem to pass either 2 or 3 6 car trains coming the other way. I can't comment on the hour after 1800. I also sometimes travel on 6 car sets Eastbound in the morning (again - regular diagrams but mostly I catch an earlier train). In terms of the whole day service it is a handful - but there is definitely a regular strengthening in the peak. I would add that the 6 car sets never have every seat taken in my experience (I also agree that many 3 car services are overloaded from Huddersfield). Anything longer than 6 cars could never be justified that I can see - even Huddersfield would have to be rejigged.

On reflection I think the morning eastbound 6 car trains do fill up at Huddersfield - but the evening westbound ones do not fill at Leeds.

 

[TC60054]

Correct Ardwick can't hold ALL 61 units EVERY NIGHT and never will.

I said it looks after 61 units.

Lets look at the South Transpennine route as I live on it. This needs 7 units a day to operate, EVERY NIGHT 4 units are kept at Cleethorpes it has a fueling point, a carriage washing plant and is able to empty the toilet tanks, 1 unit is kept at Sheffield and ONLY 2 return to Ardwick. The North Transpennine and the Scotish services will be similar.

I may be wrong but as I understand the new franchise when ONLY 29 units are needed Class 185's will ONLY operate on 2 lines.

Manchester Airport to Cleethorpes 7 six car trains 14 units.

Hull to Manchester Piccadilly 6 six car trains 12 units.

26 units in service and 3 spare.

No Class 185 will go anywhere near York, Hull and Cleethorpes can hold more units than they do at present, so Ardwick at best will only get 10 units a night. WHY will TPX need a Siemens depot at York ???????

More than one unit overnight at Sheffield. Two arrive in on the 2330 Man Airport to Sheffield alone (one works the 0325 return to Manchester, the other ECS to Doncaster for the 0542 Manchester) - iirc it's three at Sheffield, three at Cleethorpes and one in Manchester, which is a fresh unit?

In terms of your numbering - I believe only Manchester to Sheffield is to be double units, and that the additional Leeds services will see 185s as well.


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[Bantamzen]

Remember that Northern is due to receive 18 units in 2022 which must have a performance and quality equivalent to a two-car Class 170". 22 three-car Class 185s would fit this brief, and provide some extra capacity for the inevitable passenger growth that will occur when new trains and services are introduced.

And we have a winner.....

 

[Iskra]

I think this is somewhat misleading. Between 1700 and 1800 there are 5 departures westwards from Leeds of which 2 are reliably 6 cars - I aim for one or the other every night because they are the Stalybridge services. We seem to pass either 2 or 3 6 car trains coming the other way. I can't comment on the hour after 1800. I also sometimes travel on 6 car sets Eastbound in the morning (again - regular diagrams but mostly I catch an earlier train). In terms of the whole day service it is a handful - but there is definitely a regular strengthening in the peak. I would add that the 6 car sets never have every seat taken in my experience (I also agree that many 3 car services are overloaded from Huddersfield). Anything longer than 6 cars could never be justified that I can see - even Huddersfield would have to be rejigged.

On reflection I think the morning eastbound 6 car trains do fill up at Huddersfield - but the evening westbound ones do not fill at Leeds.

Maybe I'm just unlucky. I travel fairly regularly, but not daily between Dewsbury-Huddersfield, Leeds or Manchester. I've had two 6 sets cars recently, but one was due to engineering works. Before that, I can't ever remember being on a 6-car TPE service (excluding the Manchester Airport-Blackpool/Barrow splitting services). When I used to live at Lancaster and Carnforth, again I can't ever remember having a 6-car unit.

I'm aware there are 6-car services, as I see them flying through Mirfield, but as someone who travels at a mixture of times/days including the peaks sometimes I rarely seem to end up getting them.

I appreciate that not all TPE services justify a 6-car train, but in my experience many do between Lancaster/Preston-Manchester and Manchester-Leeds at least. Weekends seem to be particularly problematic as the flows fluctuate more and there tends to be more passengers with lots of luggage.

...But, it should improve in the not too distant future

 

[northwichcat]

Remember that Northern is due to receive 18 units in 2022 which must have a performance and quality equivalent to a two-car Class 170". 22 three-car Class 185s would fit this brief, and provide some extra capacity for the inevitable passenger growth that will occur when new trains and services are introduced.

I mentioned earlier (I think in this thread) that the TPE franchise agreement indicated equivalents to 170s (to replace those which went off to Chiltern) which turned out to be 185s (through loaning fewer units to Northern.)

The TPE franchise agreement does also have the option of ordering additional electric sets and releasing more 185s in 2022. There could be the option of Northern taking on over 22 x 185s in 2022 and subleasing the 16 x 170s to another operator for more consistent fleets and maintenance. Finding a home for 16 x 170s wouldn't be a difficult job!

 

[The Ham]

And we have a winner.....

Other than that would mean that the 185's are sate idle for a few years. That is unless:
A) the ROSCO rotates the units in use at TPE to ensure that there are no nasty surprises when they start at Northern
B) East West services use them until the line is electrified, but that is likely to be later than 2022
C) another TOC uses them to dispose of their 170's (or related units)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or Northern is offered an excellent deal to take them early. There is after all no point in them sitting idle if they can bring in *some* money for the ROSCO.

 

[Bantamzen]

Other than that would mean that the 185's are sate idle for a few years. That is unless:
A) the ROSCO rotates the units in use at TPE to ensure that there are no nasty surprises when they start at Northern
B) East West services use them until the line is electrified, but that is likely to be later than 2022
C) another TOC uses them to dispose of their 170's (or related units)

Or the Dft, ROSCO, & TOCs concerned made an agreement to allow Northern to take them sooner than 2022 and help strengthen the by then existing Connect services, allowing more 195s to double up (when platform lengths allow) and perhaps allowing the upgrade of non-Connect routes to such and cascading the 158s to other routes and freeing up more 150s. Just because it isn't in the smallprint right now does not mean it is impossible. I'm certain that deep in Arriva Northen HQ an eye is already cast on the possible release of units designed for the climbs up into the Pennines, given that Northern will continue to have routes that climb up into the Pennines.

Often the phrase "solution looking for a problem" is quoted on here, but in the case of the 185s it's pretty much a no-brainer. Northern would welcome the extra capacity and/or units more suited to some of their routes, the ROSCO would welcome having a TOC able to find use for them, and the DfT would have to be particularly DafT to ignore this obvious solution to a problem.

 

[1179_Clee2]

I mentioned earlier (I think in this thread) that the TPE franchise agreement indicated equivalents to 170s (to replace those which went off to Chiltern) which turned out to be 185s (through loaning fewer units to Northern.)

The TPE franchise agreement does also have the option of ordering additional electric sets and releasing more 185s in 2022. There could be the option of Northern taking on over 22 x 185s in 2022 and subleasing the 16 x 170s to another operator for more consistent fleets and maintenance. Finding a home for 16 x 170s wouldn't be a difficult job!

Northern are not going to take on ANY Class 185 for a franchise that has to REDUCE it's costs they are just too expensive to use.
How much more does a 3 car 185 cost to use over a 3 car 170 ??? 10% more or is it 20% more ???
We have ALL read what the Northern AND TPE franchise agreement states, but BOTH franchises were let PRE BREXIT nobody know how the UK will be doing in 2020 or 2022.
Pure speculation, but lets look at a example that could cover Northern's franchise agreement. The Greater Anglia 170's move to Northern.
3 car 170's 8 but reconfigure 8 Hybrid 3 car 158's back to 2 car units
2 car 170's 4
This still leaves Northern 2 units short to cover the 18 it needs, but could be covered by 156's, this example, OF MANY OPTIONS AVAILABLE would be much much cheaper than using 18 185's.
Yes it is LESS 170's. but would be more palletable for the DFT to sign off.

 

[notlob.divad]

Just to clarify the timescales of this. When do the 22 units ALL become available?

TPE currently have 51 185s total. From what I see TPE will need some of the 22 they will eventually release until the last of the new stock arrives (the final AT300) which looks to be about December 2020. This is also the same time that the last of Northern's new build stock is due to arrive.

At this point:
19 AT300s will be running the Liverpool and Manchester Airport to Edinburgh Via Leeds service.
12 CAF Civities will be running the Liverpool and Manchester Airport to Scotland via Preston service.
13 Class 68 locos and rakes of new Carriages will run the Middlesborough and Scarborough services.
29 185s (all doubled up) will run all South TPE and the remaining North TPE services (mainly Manchester - Hull).

Therefore 2020 is my understanding of when the last of the 22 185s will be available for another TOC to lease. If that is the case, Northern does look like a logical place. They are due to get more carriages by December 2022 which means it would not be 5 years sitting idle but at worst case 2. Bearing in mind that these 22 will be the ones that have not gone through TPEs rolling overhaul program would 2 years be a sensible time scale to get them all through an overhaul program and back in service for Northern? They would then come back on the Calder Valley line "Connect" services allowing the new build DMUs to focus on the flatter routes.

It would be 4 more units than are specified, but who knows what may or may not be added to the TPE/Northern franchises between now and then. Discussions around splits of the W&B franchise, new services around the Halton Curve, Liverpool-Norwich potentially being split, would all need extra DMUs. There is a lot of scope to make use of some extra units in either franchise depending on how these decisions pan out.

 

[sprinterguy]

Just to clarify the timescales of this. When do the 22 units ALL become available?

According to the TPE franchise agreement, assuming that the new stock is delivered on time, the last of the 22 units will be returned to the lessor by 31st March 2020.

 

[northwichcat]

BOTH franchises were let PRE BREXIT nobody know how the UK will be doing in 2020 or 2022.

Which works to Northern's advantage this time, while the 'no growth' element worked to Northern's disadvantage this time.

36 x 100mph capable carriages refurbished to the same standard as the ex-Scotrail 170s post refurbishment is written in to the Northern franchise spec so it would be difficult to not deliver unless an improvement is offered instead e.g. 48 x 90mph carriages. How much did the EMT/ATW refurbishment for 158s cost? That needs to be factored in if you're proposing using 158s instead of 170s.

but reconfigure 8 Hybrid 3 car 158's back to 2 car unit

What hybrid 158s? Northern's 8 x 3 car 158s aren't hybrid - the centre car is a real centre car.

but would be more palletable for the DFT to sign off.

The 185s will go somewhere. It doesn't matter if they increase the subsidy of Northern or decrease the premium of SWT, both will affect how much money DfT gets from the railways. However, going to an operator who don't serve Manchester might increase the cost of maintaining them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Northern are not going to take on ANY Class 185 for a franchise that has to REDUCE it's costs they are just too expensive to use.

Running costs are just one cost of operation. If the lease costs are cheap, as they might be if there are few viable homes for the units, they may well offset the running costs and still be viable.