2018 - A cursed year for the railway ?

[NorthKent1989]

I wouldn’t say it’s hyperbole for those directly effected by the mess ups in 2018, whether it’s Northern or GTR, people I know have lost jobs because they were late, 2017 for Southern was a s**tstorm for those commuters.

Some years are worse than others but the last two years have been horrendous.

 

[coppercapped]

We have a situation where passengers making discretionary journeys at non-commuting times, many of whom have alternatives such as motor transport, are being targeted week after week, and you think people won't permanently change their travel habits ?

I'm surprised you can't see the obvious parallels.

Beeching came six years after the ASLEF strike.

I am disappointed, but not surprised, that you fail to see that the two situations are not remotely similar.

Nobody is denying that the service offered by Northern and other TOCs has not been up to scratch for a year or so and especially so on Saturdays in the areas served by Northern and South West Railway because of the Mr Cash's willy-waving strikes. Not all of this poor performance is due to poor management by the TOCs, some of it is due to their suppliers not delivering trains that worked properly to the schedules agreed. Network Rail is also culpable because of the significant delays in completing electrification work and other infrastructure enhancements causing timetables and rosters to be planned and re-planned at very short notice.

None of this is anything like the situation in the late 1950s when traffic was leaking away across the board. With the exception of Saturday traffic on a couple of TOCs generally passenger journeys are essentially stable or slightly increasing over the rest of the network.

You might be more believable if you exaggerated less.

 

[yorksrob]

I am disappointed, but not surprised, that you fail to see that the two situations are not remotely similar.

Nobody is denying that the service offered by Northern and other TOCs has not been up to scratch for a year or so and especially so on Saturdays in the areas served by Northern and South West Railway because of the Mr Cash's willy-waving strikes. Not all of this poor performance is due to poor management by the TOCs, some of it is due to their suppliers not delivering trains that worked properly to the schedules agreed. Network Rail is also culpable because of the significant delays in completing electrification work and other infrastructure enhancements causing timetables and rosters to be planned and re-planned at very short notice.

None of this is anything like the situation in the late 1950s when traffic was leaking away across the board. With the exception of Saturday traffic on a couple of TOCs generally passenger journeys are essentially stable or slightly increasing over the rest of the network.

You might be more believable if you exaggerated less.

If you're too blinkered to see what's directly in front of you, there's no point discussing it with you.

 

[Bald Rick]

Well, if this is the considered opinion of the railway industry, heaven help it.

It is certainly not the opinion of the rail industry. Indeed it is not opinion at all: it is a fact.

There are many people who believe that the rail industry is a monopoly, including many who work in it and many who use it. It isn’t. It is a part of the wider market in mobility. There are several competitors for every journey. That is fact. It is also fact that almost every rail passenger will choose rail over the other modes (or even not travelling at all), because, for them, it is better than the alternatives available on their individual weighting of three main criteria:

Cost
Journey time
Convenience (which includes comfort, frequency, reliability, the ability to do other things en route, and many more factors).

A small number of people will also include the effect on the environment of their mode choice (but please don’t tell them about the emissions most DMUs make)

The trials and tribulations of 2018 have, undoubtedly, lowered the ‘convenience’ factor, for some rail journeys (but, realistically, only a relatively small proportion). So, some people who would have chosen rail will have swapped to alternatives, because the problems have just tipped the balance away from rail as a choice.

The point I was making is that passengers do have a choice. Granted, for some journeys the alternatives are often very unattractive, but that is not the case for all journeys, far from it. This is why it is so important for those of us who work in the rail industry to recognise that we are here to serve passengers (and freight users) who, ultimately, pay our wages.

 

[yorksrob]

It is certainly not the opinion of the rail industry. Indeed it is not opinion at all: it is a fact.

There are many people who believe that the rail industry is a monopoly, including many who work in it and many who use it. It isn’t. It is a part of the wider market in mobility. There are several competitors for every journey. That is fact. It is also fact that almost every rail passenger will choose rail over the other modes (or even not travelling at all), because, for them, it is better than the alternatives available on their individual weighting of three main criteria:

Cost
Journey time
Convenience (which includes comfort, frequency, reliability, the ability to do other things en route, and many more factors).

A small number of people will also include the effect on the environment of their mode choice (but please don’t tell them about the emissions most DMUs make)

The trials and tribulations of 2018 have, undoubtedly, lowered the ‘convenience’ factor, for some rail journeys (but, realistically, only a relatively small proportion). So, some people who would have chosen rail will have swapped to alternatives, because the problems have just tipped the balance away from rail as a choice.

The point I was making is that passengers do have a choice. Granted, for some journeys the alternatives are often very unattractive, but that is not the case for all journeys, far from it. This is why it is so important for those of us who work in the rail industry to recognise that we are here to serve passengers (and freight users) who, ultimately, pay our wages.

Well, passengers do have a choice, even though the alternatives are often far from suitable for them or society as a whole. I agree wholeheartedly with your final sentiment

 

[tbtc]

Or, alternatively, those on here that support the closures (and there are a few, bizarrely) can thank ASLEF.

It maybe says something that you can't conceive that there are people who manage to be both enthusiastic about the railway whilst acknowledging that it's a pretty blunt/ inefficient/ expensive tool to try to serve every rural village (and there are therefore some stations/ lines that are hard to justify).

Just because people like the railway doesn't meant they have to subscribe to the groupthink that every bit of it is sacred.

I don't think the railways has covered itself in glory this year

I agree - but some of the hysteria in the early posts on this thread (along the lines of "Worst Year Evah") show a lack of comprehension and perspective.

I certainly agree that things haven't been great (though a lot of the time it's been more about "things haven't got better as fast as they should have" (e.g. electrification delayed, new trains not in service yet, timetable improvements deferred) rather than things actually getting *worse* (temporary strikes aside). Just nothing like the worst year we've had.

I don't regard it as 'outlandish' to hope that a connection will be held when it will mean a delay of less than a minute.

It's not outlandish to *hope* for it (just as long as you have the perspective to appreciate that delaying the second train to connect with the first will inconvenience the passengers already on board and may cause the second train to be late at junctions/ stations in the future, thus meaning repercussions that may take hours to recover from - e.g. the oft-quoted problem with TPE services to Scarborough being chopped at Malton because they are running late.

Holding a train back five/ten minutes to maintain a connection isn't "free" - you have to weigh up the number of people benefitting from the connection to the (hundreds of) people inconvenienced. Someone has to do the maths on this kind of thing.

I can't speak for the other posters on here, however my opening description of the service throughout 2018 is how I've experienced it, so you can disagree all you like from the home counties, however this is the worst its been up here in the North, and there are plenty who've had it worse than me.

If you feel that this is the worst it's ever been in northern England then maybe you weren't around in the Northern Spirit days, when Fraser Eagle seemed to provide more departures from Leeds station in a typical day than the Regional Railways North East franchise managed!

Instead of the inconvenience of reduced Saturday services, they imposed huge cuts every day of the week - giving up entirely on some lines (e.g. Castleford) - and this was in the days of units like the 305s rather than the 170s/185s/333s were have now running ex-Regional Railways North East services.

I'm not defending the curate's egg that 2018 was, just trying to give a bit of perspective amongst all the "emotion"...

We have a situation where passengers making discretionary journeys at non-commuting times, many of whom have alternatives such as motor transport, are being targeted week after week, and you think people won't permanently change their travel habits ?

Given the comparisons then I think that the post-millennium period (where RRNE/ Northern Spirit gave up on some lines, meaning commuters couldn't guarantee their way to work each morning) was a lot worse for the railway than whether discretionary passengers will be able to go out shopping or to the football by train - the discretionary ones can be won back - the people who were paying thousands of pounds on season tickets were a lot harder to win back.

In a year or two we'll treat the 2018 strikes as a "blip".

 

[Robertj21a]

In a year or two we'll treat the 2018 strikes as a "blip".

Surely, that's the whole point. It's been a bad year, but only in a few areas/TOCs. Otherwise it's been a reasonable-ish year and I don't understand some of the exaggeration evident in some of the earlier posts.

 

[yorksrob]

It maybe says something that you can't conceive that there are people who manage to be both enthusiastic about the railway whilst acknowledging that it's a pretty blunt/ inefficient/ expensive tool to try to serve every rural village (and there are therefore some stations/ lines that are hard to justify).

Just because people like the railway doesn't meant they have to subscribe to the groupthink that every bit of it is sacred.



I agree - but some of the hysteria in the early posts on this thread (along the lines of "Worst Year Evah") show a lack of comprehension and perspective.

I certainly agree that things haven't been great (though a lot of the time it's been more about "things haven't got better as fast as they should have" (e.g. electrification delayed, new trains not in service yet, timetable improvements deferred) rather than things actually getting *worse* (temporary strikes aside). Just nothing like the worst year we've had.



It's not outlandish to *hope* for it (just as long as you have the perspective to appreciate that delaying the second train to connect with the first will inconvenience the passengers already on board and may cause the second train to be late at junctions/ stations in the future, thus meaning repercussions that may take hours to recover from - e.g. the oft-quoted problem with TPE services to Scarborough being chopped at Malton because they are running late.

Holding a train back five/ten minutes to maintain a connection isn't "free" - you have to weigh up the number of people benefitting from the connection to the (hundreds of) people inconvenienced. Someone has to do the maths on this kind of thing.



If you feel that this is the worst it's ever been in northern England then maybe you weren't around in the Northern Spirit days, when Fraser Eagle seemed to provide more departures from Leeds station in a typical day than the Regional Railways North East franchise managed!

Instead of the inconvenience of reduced Saturday services, they imposed huge cuts every day of the week - giving up entirely on some lines (e.g. Castleford) - and this was in the days of units like the 305s rather than the 170s/185s/333s were have now running ex-Regional Railways North East services.

I'm not defending the curate's egg that 2018 was, just trying to give a bit of perspective amongst all the "emotion"...



Given the comparisons then I think that the post-millennium period (where RRNE/ Northern Spirit gave up on some lines, meaning commuters couldn't guarantee their way to work each morning) was a lot worse for the railway than whether discretionary passengers will be able to go out shopping or to the football by train - the discretionary ones can be won back - the people who were paying thousands of pounds on season tickets were a lot harder to win back.

In a year or two we'll treat the 2018 strikes as a "blip".

I included in my opening post a question as to whether anyone could remember a year as excrable as 2018 for the railway. People are free to answer it as they see fit, although having commuted from Leeds at the turn of the millenium, I always managed to get to work.

Given that we still don't know how "temporary" the strikes are going to be, I don't think we can write off 2018 as a "blip" yet. And the long term seeping away of confidence in the railway isn't confined to discretionary travel, particularly on trans pennine and Northern in the North West of England. In these cases, improvements not arriving early enough have had a very real effect on the existing service.

 

[Fearless]

I don't regard it as 'outlandish' to hope that a connection will be held when it will mean a delay of less than a minute.

It's not outlandish to *hope* for it (just as long as you have the perspective to appreciate that delaying the second train to connect with the first will inconvenience the passengers already on board and may cause the second train to be late at junctions/ stations in the future, thus meaning repercussions that may take hours to recover from - e.g. the oft-quoted problem with TPE services to Scarborough being chopped at Malton because they are running late.

Holding a train back five/ten minutes to maintain a connection isn't "free" - you have to weigh up the number of people benefitting from the connection to the (hundreds of) people inconvenienced. Someone has to do the maths on this kind of thing.

All very true, but what you say about perspective comes into play here as well. The connection in question was Didcot to Oxford, running time quarter of an hour, back working the next stopper to Didcot - very little scope for cumulative inconvenience if it was held for one minute. Letting that connection go, however, inconvenienced many more passengers and added to the crowding on the next service. In this particular instance, the 'greater benefit to the greater number' might well have been to hold the connection. Totally different if it involved intercity services on long journeys, as you rightly point out - as I said, it's all about perspective.

 

[backontrack]

It maybe says something that you can't conceive that there are people who manage to be both enthusiastic about the railway whilst acknowledging that it's a pretty blunt/ inefficient/ expensive tool to try to serve every rural village (and there are therefore some stations/ lines that are hard to justify).

On the contrary, I can conceive that. It's just that there are people on here that support Beeching. No need to be accuse me of being blind to your point of view - to say that I somehow can't conceive that is more rude than anything else.

 

[coppercapped]

Firstly, I hope that everybody has had an enjoyable Christmas and that the New Year will bring lots of good things and experiences to everybody - but mainly good health.

If you're too blinkered to see what's directly in front of you, there's no point discussing it with you.

Directly in front of me I see delayed improvements to services through my local station operated by slightly flawed new trains. There have been some Saturday disturbances on one of the routes to London - one of the reasons being Mr Cash's willy-waving about trains which have not yet been completed let alone put into service (on one seventh of the week on a day when traffic is lower anyway). Nevertheless traffic is holding up well on all on the routes radiating from Reading as Reading is a net importer of labour.

So - directly in front of me there are some hiccups but no terminal illness.

On the contrary, I can conceive that. It's just that there are people on here that support Beeching. No need to be accuse me of being blind to your point of view - to say that I somehow can't conceive that is more rude than anything else.

To pick up your point that people 'support' Beeching - I find it an interesting concept in that it makes it sound as if he were a football team! I would suggest that 'support' is not quite the right word - though I well understand what you mean in strictly railway enthusiast terms.

The man died some 33 years ago so all one can do is analyse his actions regarding the railways in historical terms. Whether or not these actions - introducing organisation wide management accounting, trying to reduce operating losses by, among other things, proposing line and services closures, promoting intercity and fast terminal-to-terminal freight services, supporting electrification where justified and driving the introduction of the 'British Rail' house style - match one's world view is up to the individual.

 

[Malcolmffc]

Feels like the last 12 months have been very poor for the rail industry:

Crossrail delay
GTR & Northern timetable fiasco
The GOBLIN farce
TPE electrification descoped
VTEC franchise failure
Industrial action spreading around the country
Passengers numbers stalling or falling in some cases

Can things get any worse in 2019?

 

[bramling]

Feels like the last 12 months have been very poor for the rail industry:

Crossrail delay
GTR & Northern timetable fiasco
The GOBLIN farce
TPE electrification descoped
VTEC franchise failure
Industrial action spreading around the country
Passengers numbers stalling or falling in some cases

Can things get any worse in 2019?

And a couple more off the top of the head to add
Class 385 debacle
SSR resignalling repeatedly postponed (is this now so late the lateness can be measured in decades not years?)
Waterloo derailment

It’s conspicuous that in your original list all but the last one seem to lead back to the public sector as a major root player - either DFT or TFL.

 

[Eccles1983]

Not by a long chalk.

No one has died due to a massive failure of infrastructure or human error.

As long as that continues then it cannot be the worst or cursed year ever.

As much as it has many faults it's still the safest or if not one of the safest railway networks in the world.

 

[yorksrob]

Not by a long chalk.

No one has died due to a massive failure of infrastructure or human error.

As long as that continues then it cannot be the worst or cursed year ever.

As much as it has many faults it's still the safest or if not one of the safest railway networks in the world.

One can have a railway network on which no one dies, and still have far greater disruption to passengers than normal, which will affect a greater number of people, albeit far less catastrophically. Given vast numbers of passengers in the Northern area will have been pushed onto the far more dangerous road network due to the unreliability/non-existance of the train service, one wonders whether any deaths have been pushed onto the roads.

 

[Eccles1983]

One can have a railway network on which no one dies, and still have far greater disruption to passengers than normal, which will affect a greater number of people, albeit far less catastrophically. Given vast numbers of passengers in the Northern area will have been pushed onto the far more dangerous road network due to the unreliability/non-existance of the train service, one wonders whether any deaths have been pushed onto the roads.

I'm not denying that.

But that wasn't the question.

 

[bramling]

One can have a railway network on which no one dies, and still have far greater disruption to passengers than normal, which will affect a greater number of people, albeit far less catastrophically. Given vast numbers of passengers in the Northern area will have been pushed onto the far more dangerous road network due to the unreliability/non-existance of the train service, one wonders whether any deaths have been pushed onto the roads.

I don’t think there’s room for complacency on safety either - there have been incidents where things could easily have been much worse or where the root cause is rather concerning, Watford Tunnel and Waterloo derailments spring to mind. Then there’s the Lewisham and Peckham Rye detrainment incidents, the latter in particular extremely serious.

Likewise TFL have had some nasties this year - two very serious ballsups on the Jubilee, one a train moving at line speed with doors wide open, and another where a train was driven the wrong way along a running line, plus an incident on the Bakerloo where traction current was recharged during engineering work.

The problem with good luck is that it eventually runs out.

 

[yorksrob]

I don’t think there’s room for complacency on safety either - there have been incidents where things could easily have been much worse or where the root cause is rather concerning, Watford Tunnel and Waterloo derailments spring to mind. Then there’s the Lewisham and Peckham Rye detrainment incidents, the latter in particular extremely serious.

Likewise TFL have had some nasties this year - two very serious ballsups on the Jubilee, one a train moving at line speed with doors wide open, and another where a train was driven the wrong way along a running line, plus an incident on the Bakerloo where traction current was recharged during engineering work.

The problem with good luck is that it eventually runs out.

Yes indeed. There have been a few notable near misses of late.

 

[A0]

In the case of the missed connection at Didcot , and yes I know I am a Dinosaur) - the BR Chargeman / Supervisor would have held the train for a couple of mins on his own initiative - and herded the passengers onto it with maybe a 2 or 3 min delay but passenger journeys completed. No need to bother "Control" with that.

Now we have delay attribution clerks in distant offices - who stare at screens and have zero passenger facing duties. Is that a benefit.? A senior railway manager wrote of the "don't see, don't care" attitude of some elements of the railway structure today. Note , I said "some" - there are some great staff out there ......there was one at Luton Airport Parkway yesterday helping out the confused diverted air passengers.

But here's the challenge - on the one hand every one of those 'late' minutes adds up and adds to the impression of the railways being unreliable. It's about where do you put responsibility - those people "sitting in offices" ultimately are the ones who end up being held responsible and accountable for a late running train and the knock on effects, not the bloke on a platform who took a unilateral decision to delay a train by a couple of mins to ensure a connection.

Allowing "local" control and "local" discretion is all well and good, but we have a national railway network - which means people in the centre get held responsible for things. If making that local decision then impacted the person who took the decision then all well and good, but those who work at that local level in my experience don't want that.

 

[bramling]

But here's the challenge - on the one hand every one of those 'late' minutes adds up and adds to the impression of the railways being unreliable. It's about where do you put responsibility - those people "sitting in offices" ultimately are the ones who end up being held responsible and accountable for a late running train and the knock on effects, not the bloke on a platform who took a unilateral decision to delay a train by a couple of mins to ensure a connection.

Allowing "local" control and "local" discretion is all well and good, but we have a national railway network - which means people in the centre get held responsible for things. If making that local decision then impacted the person who took the decision then all well and good, but those who work at that local level in my experience don't want that.

This is all where good training and operating knowledge comes in. In any case “control” aren’t always what they’re cracked up to be - it’s common to see very dubious decisions made where there’s clearly no knowledge of aspects like dominant passenger flows or what the actual effect will be on a late train, for example it’s so common to have control pull a load of stops from a late service only for it to then get stuck behind an all-stations service and have no chance of making up any time.

 

[A0]

This is all where good training and operating knowledge comes in. In any case “control” aren’t always what they’re cracked up to be - it’s common to see very dubious decisions made where there’s clearly no knowledge of aspects like dominant passenger flows or what the actual effect will be on a late train, for example it’s so common to have control pull a load of stops from a late service only for it to then get stuck behind an all-stations service and have no chance of making up any time.

Sorry, but that load of old pony that 'the bloke doing the job knows best' gets trotted out every time - and in a large organisation it's simply untrue. Any and every large organisation takes decision which benefit the majority of users or customers - which means a minority lose out but the service is more reliable and more consistent.

"Control" or "management" take a big picture view of these things whereas a "local" person will only be looking at the dozen or so passengers on his or her platform at that moment in time.

If those "local" managers are so good and clever why aren't they giving the benefit of their ability by working in "control".....?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It's certainly true that rail users who are captive to Northern and TSGN have had a horrendous year, particularly those on the Bolton corridor.
TSGN seems to be sorting itself out gradually, but things are still very poor at Northern.
However most of the remaining TOCs have had a decent year - if you are captive to (eg) VT, LNER or XC things have been pretty normal bar some rebranding.
What I don't get from the debate so far is how blinkered some people are to the fact that these failures are largely down to the scale of planned expansion and the problems of major change as services are upgraded - the service hasn't just "collapsed" of its own accord.

Northern is in the early stages of adding many new trains and services.
TSGN is hopefully on the home straight of doing the same.
TPE, also significantly disrupted, is starting to replace/extend all its trains.
Scotrail (Abellio) always seems to be on the brink of being kicked out, but they have newly electrified lines in the central belt, and new longer trains to work them.
What's not to like? And yet the complaints are legion (about seat quality and new train times mainly).
Yes, the programme is late and there have been several mis-steps along the way, but they have pretty much got there.
The much-needed onward cascade of diesel stock to Northern is well under way.
Bromsgrove commuters have had a good year - 4tph to Birmingham instead of 1tph.
GWR has had much turmoil but its services seem to have just about held up, even if the 80x roll-out has not been perfect.

What we don't know about 2019 is whether NR and the TOCs can sort out the Castlefield corridor in Manchester, because it isn't working at the moment.
Then there's Crossrail which will probably hog the headlines, and perhaps there will be new cost/contractual problems with HS2.
Then there's the strikes.
The remaining electrification schemes should be finished (maybe not to Cardiff, and Corby will still be in progress) so the infrastructure disruption should be less.
So I think there's reason for guarded optimism for 2019.
But then later in the year the Williams report will generate the usual uproar about ownership and centralised operation.

 

[bramling]

Sorry, but that load of old pony that 'the bloke doing the job knows best' gets trotted out every time - and in a large organisation it's simply untrue. Any and every large organisation takes decision which benefit the majority of users or customers - which means a minority lose out but the service is more reliable and more consistent.

"Control" or "management" take a big picture view of these things whereas a "local" person will only be looking at the dozen or so passengers on his or her platform at that moment in time.

If those "local" managers are so good and clever why aren't they giving the benefit of their ability by working in "control".....?

As I said, I’d say more depends on good training (with a modicum of experience built up over time). There’s people who get signed off in some kind of “control” grade and think that and a lanyard round their neck automatically makes them akin to God. Reality is rather different.

I’m not saying there aren’t good controllers, but it’s a fallacy to assume that just because someone’s sitting at a desk in a control room looking at monitors that they automatically know exactly what they’re doing. The best ones are those who are prepared to listen to what they're being told from "on site", be knowledgeable enough to be able to filter out any incoming information which is leading them up the garden path, and reach the correct decision - and then afterwards be humble enough to think back and look at what went well and what might be done differently next time. Some people are superb at this, others simply don't get it.

 

[jayah]

Thirty years as a regular train traveller and I've never experienced anything like it.

Never-ending engineering works, timetable meltdown, never ending industrial action, and now the whole of Kent has self-immolated.

I suppose the years of the closure programme were bad in the long term.

Can anyone think of a year as excrable as 2018 for the railway ?

In recent history only 1988 with fatal rail disasters and 2000 with the fatal Hatfield crash plunging the industry into chaos that took years to recover from.

Crossrail delayed indefinitely.

Strikes here, strikes there and strikes everywhere.

VTEC renationalised and another franchising review.

Cross Country capacity improvements kicked into more long grass.

Overrunning and over budget enhancement schemes questioning competence and value for money, especially electrification.

Timetable debacles on Northern and Thameslink marring what should have been been big win upgrades.

Ordsall Curve opening bringing inadequate planning v.v Piccadilly 15/16 into focus.

An industry-wide timetable 'frit' leading to timetable enhancements on GWR SWR and elsewhere being deferred.

And whatever your views on HS2, more talk of budgetary spread, Phase 2 may not happen and problems with Crossrail will not help either.

 

[jayah]

Sorry, but that load of old pony that 'the bloke doing the job knows best' gets trotted out every time - and in a large organisation it's simply untrue. Any and every large organisation takes decision which benefit the majority of users or customers - which means a minority lose out but the service is more reliable and more consistent.

"Control" or "management" take a big picture view of these things whereas a "local" person will only be looking at the dozen or so passengers on his or her platform at that moment in time.

If those "local" managers are so good and clever why aren't they giving the benefit of their ability by working in "control".....?

I rather suspect those decisions are made to reduce financial liability under the performance regime not to avoid inconvenience or delay to users!

 

[ChiefPlanner]

But here's the challenge - on the one hand every one of those 'late' minutes adds up and adds to the impression of the railways being unreliable. It's about where do you put responsibility - those people "sitting in offices" ultimately are the ones who end up being held responsible and accountable for a late running train and the knock on effects, not the bloke on a platform who took a unilateral decision to delay a train by a couple of mins to ensure a connection.

Allowing "local" control and "local" discretion is all well and good, but we have a national railway network - which means people in the centre get held responsible for things. If making that local decision then impacted the person who took the decision then all well and good, but those who work at that local level in my experience don't want that.

Well the old train recording methods were "tick sheets" - and rounding up a min or two was dead easy - only the money making science of delay attribution opened up these issues IMHO.

In the days of command and control railway - the old Area Operations Centres (say Shrewsbury) had the authority to decide on held connections for class 2 services, whilst the "brains" at Regional Control (Crewe) opined on holding class 1 services. (or not)

Passengers can manage a bit of late running - (they are used to it on their drives) , however to see an hourly connection leave is not about the perception of reliability , it is a denial of service - which they have paid for.

 

[A0]

Passengers can manage a bit of late running - (they are used to it on their drives) , however to see an hourly connection leave is not about the perception of reliability , it is a denial of service - which they have paid for.

For those wanting the connection. And for the majority who turned up on time who are sitting on the train tutting and looking at their watch wondering why their train isn't on its way and the fact their journey is being delayed its just another example of poor management and poor service from the railways because their train isn't leaving on time.

 

[bramling]

For those wanting the connection. And for the majority who turned up on time who are sitting on the train tutting and looking at their watch wondering why their train isn't on its way and the fact their journey is being delayed its just another example of poor management and poor service from the railways because their train isn't leaving on time.

You paint a specific picture which in some cases may well be perfectly accurate. However there will also be occasions when the connection train is pretty much empty, where the vast majority of people will be making the connection, yet they get an experience perhaps of the doors on the incoming train opening just as the connection train’s doors close.

I’m more thinking of recovery measures though, and in some cases handling of incidents. No one with their head screwed on can possibly argue that it’s a good decision to omit stops from a train that’s clearly going to be stuck behind an all-stations train. Or to let a train run around 8 minutes late up and down between Kennington and Edgware all afternoon without doing anything with it, then when 1700 comes and the next trip is booked via the busy Bank branch divert the train via Charing Cross to make up the time. Both of these are real-life examples. And remember how well “control” dealt with the isolated AWS in the run up to the Southall collision? Or some of the recent detrainment fiascos?

This isn’t a dig at control, but likewise they’re not always as God-like as sometimes perceived. People on the ground do know what’re doing, not spending all their working life in the bubble of a control room.

 

[cactustwirly]

I think this thread is hysterical tbh!
Yes it hasn't been ideal, but it isn't the worst year ever!
Yes the timetable change wasn't ideal, but on the whole the train services I've used have been completely fine!

 

[bramling]

I think this thread is hysterical tbh!
Yes it hasn't been ideal, but it isn't the worst year ever!
Yes the timetable change wasn't ideal, but on the whole the train services I've used have been completely fine!

It all depends on when and where. Travel in the wrong place at the wrong time and the experience has been horrendous.

But possibly the bigger issue is there’s quite a list of things which simply haven’t gone well. The concern is that this might be pointing towards an industry that’s losing its ability in key areas. Let’s all hope that’s not the case.