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2016 US election discussion

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me123

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Trump may be obnoxious with extreme views that many feel are distasteful, however the guy must have some sort of intelligence and business acumen as he is worth a few $Billion !!

He inherited his fortune from his father, and from what I've read it seems that he hasn't made a great deal of money on his inheritance (over and above very basic investments). I've seen some sources suggest that he'd have got a better return from the stock market than from his business. He's had quite a few business failures as well. Had he not been born into an affluent background, he simply wouldn't be where he is today.

By contrast, Alan Sugar started off in a deprived background and built his company from scratch.

Interesting tweet from Trump just gone up:
Donald Trump said:
Prior to the end of the year, I will be traveling to Israel. I am very much looking forward to it.
:shock:
 
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jon0844

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I think he's actually been pretty bad at running businesses, so I can well believe he'd have done better just chucking the money into low risk investments.
 

Tetchytyke

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His wife's name is Ivana - Ivana Trump? :lol:

Ex-wife.

And since we're on the subject of her, allegations that he raped and violently assaulted her whilst they were married have resurfaced.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tack-amid-argument-bald-patch-treatments.html

Allegations that real estate tycoon Donald Trump 'violated' his ex-wife have resurfaced as he continues his presidential campaign.

Ivana Trump, from whom the Apprentice star family split in the early 1990s, once used the term 'rape' to describe what it felt like during a 1989 alleged incident between the couple.

The allegations, which came from a deposition during the Trumps' divorce, were revealed in the 1993 book Lost Tycoon: The Many Lives of Donald J. Trump.

Online news magazine The Daily Beast brought up the claims in a piece on Sunday, noting that Ivana later backed away from her use of the word rape and said that she felt 'violated' during the sexual episode rather than 'raped'.
'This is an event that has been widely reported on in the past, it is old news and it never happened,' a Trump spokesman told Daily Mail Online.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
 

meridian2

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Trump is saying what a lot of us think. When you live in a world with spineless politicians that don't listen, you invariably ignore them and think of alternative policies, some extreme, some not. Unfortunately, some of his thoughts should've remained private, and this gross indiscretion could cost him.
I could be extremely cynical and dare suggest this was all done deliberately as some sort of PR initiative for his failing campaign. Either way, both have backfired.
 

me123

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The petition to ban Donald Trump from entering the country has gathered in excess of 100,000 signatures. This means that Westminster must now debate a motion to prevent a US presidential candidate from entering our country.

I suspect that he won't be banned from entry, but the fact that we are going to have this debate in parliament is quite extraordinary.
 

Merseysider

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The petition to ban Donald Trump from entering the country has gathered in excess of 100,000 signatures. This means that Westminster must now debate a motion to prevent a US presidential candidate from entering our country.

I suspect that he won't be banned from entry, but the fact that we are going to have this debate in parliament is quite extraordinary.
That's incredible - it's gained 50,000 signatures in the last two hours! I agree it isn't likely to happen, but if he was banned it would be quite a statement.
 

Geezertronic

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The petition to ban Donald Trump from entering the country has gathered in excess of 100,000 signatures. This means that Westminster must now debate a motion to prevent a US presidential candidate from entering our country.

I suspect that he won't be banned from entry, but the fact that we are going to have this debate in parliament is quite extraordinary.

I don't believe they MUST debate the motion, they MUST consider debating the motion

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35052505 said:
A petition calling for Republican presidential hopeful Donald Trump to be barred from entering UK has passed 100,000, meaning MPs will have to consider debating the issue
 

CromptonLad

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If genuine - profoundly worrying as socially and economically the man is a midget of limited talents - refer to his stock.market /business dealings.

If a hoax - I suspect a "lightning rod" tactic on the part of the GOP. Put forward something so unpalatable and disagreeable that any alternate candidate seems perfect by comparison.

How he has not tanked yet puzzles me.
 

Aldaniti

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Personally, I can think of half a dozen reasons why Trump is wrong. I don't agree with him, so lets ban him. Bigots policing the bigots. :roll:
 

me123

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I don't believe they MUST debate the motion, they MUST consider debating the motion

I think they always do debate it, although not always exactly what was on the petition. A bit like the "fire Jeremy *unt" campaign, they probably won't be able to actually debate this but will probably debate something broadly similar. (For example, instead of actually debating a vote of no confidence in the Health Secretary, they debated "considering the petition" and then voted that it had been duly considered).
 

Oswyntail

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Personally, I can think of half a dozen reasons why Trump is wrong. I don't agree with him, so lets ban him. Bigots policing the bigots. :roll:
I assume from the :roll: that you mean the "bigots policing the bigots" are those who have signed the petition (as I have). I just think we have to be even-handed. The man is preaching anti-Muslim hatred, and we should deny him entry in the same way we deny hate-preaching Muslim "clerics".
 

Tetchytyke

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Personally, I can think of half a dozen reasons why Trump is wrong. I don't agree with him, so lets ban him. Bigots policing the bigots. :roll:

He's preaching hatred as much as the countless others we've banned from the UK, including the pastor Terry Brown, Mike Tyson, the rapper Busta Rhymes and the many Arabic preachers.
 

me123

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^ Agree totally. I don't think he will be banned (it would cause a small diplomatic scuffle), but he is guilty of inciting religious and racial hatred. That's not a crime in America, as we've already covered here. But it is a crime on these islands. We have banned preachers of hate from both the Islamic and Christian faiths before, and rightly so in my opinion. I would consider Donald Trump to fall into this category.

I wonder if Trump is going to ban Christians from America too, given that they have also committed terrorist atrocities in the country (most recently the shooting at Colorado Springs Planned Parenthood clinic)?
 
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TheNewNo2

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Yes he is a bigot, a racist, a sexist, a fascist. Generally if you pick an ist that's considered bad, Trump is one.

He is also speaking to what the Republican electorate generally seem to want though. For decades now Republican candidates have been exploiting racists, albeit by dog whistles. See for instance the infamous "Hands" commercial - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIyewCdXMzk. There are many bad things which can be said about George W Bush, particularly in the way his campaign exploited anti-gay animus, but he was always quite clear that the US was not at war with Islam. But under Obama, the Republicans have rather gone off the deep end. To start with there was the whole "Birther" movement (Trump again), which tried to claim Obama wasn't really a US citizen and so couldn't be president. They have whipped up their own base into such fear of "their" America being lost that they've lost control of it now and it's coming back to bite them.

But Trump is merely the clearest examplar of GOP racial animus. Every GOP presidential candidate has said similar things, they're just not quite to open about it. Play a game of Trump or Not Trump at https://www.hillaryclinton.com/feed/who-said-it-donald-trump-or-not-donald-trump/



A long-term (simplified) history lesson:

When the US was created, it included slavery in the constitution. As a federal system, not all states allowed slavery, but those in the South mostly did. Slaves famously counted as 3/5 of a person for purposes of taxation and representation. Later, the US Civil War was primarily over whether to allow slavery or not - the northern states said no, the South said yes, seceded and formed the Confederacy. The North declared war on the Confederacy, and eventually defeated them. It is noteworthy here that the US was led by Abraham Lincoln, who was from the Republican party.

However the end of slavery did not mean equality. While black people could no longer be kept as slaves, they were systematically denied rights. This morphed into the segregation of the early to mid 20th century, where there would, for instance, be one water fountain for white people, one for "coloureds", under the claim of "separate but equal". This was the "Jim Crow" era - while all men were meant to have the right to vote, obstacles were put in the way. For instance literacy tests for those who couldn't prove an education (namely black people) - you can try one at http://www.openculture.com/2014/07/literacy-test-louisiana-used-to-suppress-the-black-vote.html

But this was not true equality, and the Supreme Court would rule that "separate is not equal". This was not a universally popular decision, and the president of the time, JFK, had to order troops to forcibly integrate the University of Alabama, against the wishes of the state's governor. Wallace and Kennedy were both Democrats, but the Democratic party was split between the southern "Dixiecrats", who supported segregation, and the northern Democrats who opposed it. Following JFK's assassination and the civil rights marches led by Rev Martin Luther King Jr, JFK's successor, Lyndon B Johnson, signed into law the Civil Rights Act. This required states with a history of racist laws to have any voting rights changes approved by the federal government. Johnson famously declared at the time "We [Democrats] have just lost the South for a generation."

Over time, the Dixiecrats migrated from the Democratic party into the Republican party, and they were by and large welcomed. Republicans who supported civil rights joined the Democrats. This is by and large the start of the polarisation now seen in US politics today. The South went from being solidly Democratic to solidly Republican, as it is now. This led to the "Southern Strategy", whereby a Republican candidate could win by appealing to the racism of the South. And should you think that that is a long-gone memory, George W Bush used the same method, but appealing to Southern homophobia.

In the past few decades, outright racism has been replaced by "dog whistles" - phrases used as code instead of saying what you actually mean. In recent years, this has become more anti-Muslim and anti-immigrant.


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The scary thing is that he might actually win. He won the Iowa caucus quite securely (with 33% of the overall vote). I can only hope that, if the loony party in America do select Trump as their candidate, that not only will just about anyone with a democratic leaning vote against him, I suspect a huge number of Republicans would do likewise.

Sorry to correct you, but the Iowa caucuses aren't until January. Trump has however been leading polls nationwide and in almost every state, including the recent one you cite where he was at 33%.
 
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me123

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Sorry to correct you, but the Iowa caucuses aren't until January. Trump has however been leading polls nationwide and in almost every state, including the recent one you cite where he was at 33%.

Was that an opinion poll and not the caucuses? :oops: I feel stupid now. Don't know where I got that from! Don't apologise for correcting me!

In more Trump news, he's lost an honorary degree from Robert Gordon University and he's fired from his role as business ambassador to Scotland.

I'm sure he couldn't care less. He's too busy making America "great again". But I'm still quite (pleasantly!) surprised at just how strong the feelings against Trump are on this side of the pond. The petition has now reached 252,223 signatures. It's more than doubled in the last few hours. I still maintain it will come to nothing more than a symbolic debate in Westminster Hall, but still...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

7/7! :D Yeah, the whole Republican party is bat***** crazy to be fair.
 

ac6000cw

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The U.S. is about as diverse in terms of backgrounds and lifestyles as it gets, but when I've been in small town America it was noticeable to me that a lot of people rarely get the chance to mix with people from different backgrounds with areas being starkly divided. Very different in the big cosmopolitan cities of course, but they probably aren't likely to want Trump.

I was in New York shortly before we went to war in Iraq (2003) and most people, many of whom were protesting just like in London (not that you'd know if you watched Fox in the hotel later that night), were very much more open minded than people here might expect if you allow yourself to believe in the same stereotypes that Trump is relying on to vilify Muslims.

The problem is there are clearly towns, cities and entire states that are somewhat less open minded and potentially very dangerous.

Based on my own visits to the US, I'd generally agree.

I suspect Trump is at least partly 'testing the water' politically (maybe at the urging of some other ultra right-wing people in the background) to see just how much support and opposition there really is to the basic idea, however impractical, silly and abhorrent it might be.

If you live in rural Iowa, Nebraska, Utah, Montana etc. you may well not even meet that many Afro-Americans, let alone someone from another country and culture. That situation does tend to naturally produce people with a conservative (small 'c') outlook on life - NYC, LA and DC might be 1500 miles away and viewed almost as a different country. So it's not surprising that polls/surveys in those sort of places reflect conservative/right wing attitudes.

(I remember walking into a Dairy Queen in deepest West Virginia once. The looks between the staff behind the counter when I ordered a coffee probably translated into 'Is he really from England?' - and that was only two hundred miles from Washington DC...)

If Trump actually gets selected by the Republicans to run for President I think he would be a gift to the Democrats...
 
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miami

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I'd like to see him suggest banning Muslims from buying guns, ammo and using shooting ranges.

I think his fan base would see their heads exploding :D
 

Butts

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The Ban Trump petition has just topped 300,000 signatures. I love this country at times. <D

It was only at 15,000 when I signed it last night...

How many of those 300,000 people have signed after careful consideration rather than just jumping on the bandwagon for the latest social media fad ?

Let him come over and defeat him via a grilling from Dimbleby or some other interviewer of gravitas :idea:
 

me123

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Worked for Nick Griffin. I remember watching as he claimed he would deport everyone whose ancestors weren't here "before the last ice age".
 

Merseysider

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How many of those 300,000 people have signed after careful consideration rather than just jumping on the bandwagon for the latest social media fad ?

Let him come over and defeat him via a grilling from Dimbleby or some other interviewer of gravitas :idea:
I imagine most of those 300,000 will have heard at least some of his fascist diatribe, considering he's constantly in the UK media.

We could allow him in, or we could prevent him having a platform from which to spout his bullsh*t. According to a poll by YouGov, one quarter of UK voters agree that Muslims should be barred from US entry. Furthermore, nearly two thirds of the kippers polled believed the measures would be appropriate. We already have a problem with Islamophobia in the UK without arseholes like Trump fuelling that fire. Just look at what happens at his US rallies and speeches (example: black protester gets beaten up, Trump says he should have got beaten up)

The Telegraph ran a short article

The Telegraph said:
Supporters of the UK Independence Party overwhelmingly back Donald Trump's proposal for Muslim migrants to be banned from entering America, a YouGov poll has found, writes Ben Riley-Smith, Political Correspondent.

Some 61 per cent of Ukip backers said Mr Trump's controversial suggestion was "appropriate" - almost double the 32 per cent who said it was "inappropriate".

The findings on Ukip are in stark contrast to backers of every other major political party who overwhelming opposed the policy.

It comes despite Nigel Farage, the Ukip leader, initially criticising the remarks as a "kneejerk" reaction and a "political mistake too far".

In total one in four British voters supported Muslims being banned from entering America, according to YouGov

It's quite an achievement to be considered too racist by Nigel Farage. If Trump is given the opportunity to speak his mind in Britain, nothing good could possibly come out of it.
 

Oswyntail

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....Let him come over and defeat him via a grilling from Dimbleby or some other interviewer of gravitas :idea:
There is a difference between him and Griffin. Seeing the latter marmalised destroyed his "credibility" for his home audience, but would not for Trump. However, having him refused entry as a "hate preacher" might just go well across the pond.
 

Butts

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There is a difference between him and Griffin. Seeing the latter marmalised destroyed his "credibility" for his home audience, but would not for Trump. However, having him refused entry as a "hate preacher" might just go well across the pond.

Perhaps he should face Lord Sugar in a "battle of The Apprentice hosts"....

Youre Fired Trump :idea:
 

miami

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How many of those 300,000 people have signed after careful consideration rather than just jumping on the bandwagon for the latest social media fad ?

Let him come over and defeat him via a grilling from Dimbleby or some other interviewer of gravitas :idea:

Quite, it's a tough one. My first instinct was "no, let him speak, shine the light, worked with Nick Griffin". Then I thought about Hitler's rise, something that Trump is apparently mindful of:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...is-bed-according-to-his-ex-wife-a6765391.html
According to a 1990 Vanity Fair interview, Ivana Trump once told her lawyer Michael Kennedy that her husband, real-estate mogul Donald Trump, now a leading Republican presidential candidate, kept a book of Hitler's speeches near his bed.
....
Hitler was one of history's most prolific orators, building a genocidal Nazi regime with speeches that bewitched audiences.
....
"People were most willing to follow him, because he seemed to have the right answers in a time of enormous economic upheaval."

The trouble is I see the best bet for America will be a strong republican candidate that can knock Trump out at that stage. I don't see any democratic candidate able to get enough support - the Liberals like Bernie Sanders, but he'll be 75, 6 years older then Reagan, and I think he's too progressive for mainstreet America. Hillary has a lot of baggage, for some reason a lot of people who she needs to vote for her think she personally killed the ambassador in Benghazi, but she didn't help herself with the email issue.

There's only 81 days to go before we get a strong idea who the front-runner is/are (First indications in early Feb, then Super-Tuesday on March 1st).
 

me123

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Trump's ****ter account now has the most stupid thing anyone has ever said.

Donald Trump said:
Thank you to respected columnist Katie Hopkins of DailyMail.com

:lol:
 
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