1st Class Excuses and discussion on 1st provision

[TheKnightWho]

With women I know, there would be no discussion. To sit whilst they stood would be unthinkable.

For women I didn't know. It would depend on the circumstances.

If I was stood and a seat came free, if there were women standing, I wouldn't sit down.

If I got to a busy commuter service in time to get a seat, and a non-disabled, non-elderly, non-pregnant woman jumped on at the last moment, would I stand, no.

Many women would find that attitude extremely patronising. I mean, what's your reasoning for standing?
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I can only speak for myself. I thought this was a general discussion not an exam.

Right, but the whole point of the discussion is about empathy and the experiences of other people.

I was drawing attention to the fact that your personal experiences don't really add much to the discussion if there's a general trend of people being uncomfortable about being offered seats for nothing more than their personal characteristics.

 

[GatwickDepress]

I suppose she thought you were inadvertently drawing attention to her size.

Discrimination is not just about the obvious cases, but the little things. In this case I'm inclined to think she's being unreasonable, though, as I imagine you'd've asked that of anyone...

Definitely, Southern's airline seats aren't exactly spacious, and even if Kate Moss was sitting next to me, I'd ask her to stand. I did want to retrieve my luggage without doing some sort of ridiculous Three Stooges routine as well.

She wasn't large by any definition of the word, and I'm not thin, so why those words...it completely threw me. Perhaps she had image issues. :?

 

[trainophile]

Many women would find that attitude extremely patronising. I mean, what's your reasoning for standing?
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Right, but the whole point of the discussion is about empathy and the experiences of other people.

I was drawing attention to the fact that your personal experiences don't really add much to the discussion if there's a general trend of people being uncomfortable about being offered seats for nothing more than their personal characteristics.

The whole point of the discussion disappeared several pages ago as it was supposed to be about First Class availability and usage.

Not sure why you've decided to have a go at me specifically. If my posts annoy you, ignore them. Oxford student eh? I bow to your superior debating skills .

 

[TheKnightWho]

The whole point of the discussion disappeared several pages ago as it was supposed to be about First Class availability and usage.

Not sure why you've decided to have a go at me specifically. If my posts annoy you, ignore them. Oxford student eh? I bow to your superior debating skills .

I think I'd better rephrase it:

Saying how you feel about something doesn't say anything of the hundreds of people who seem to take it a different way. I'm not one to get offended about much at all really, but I try and keep my eyes out for how things could be taken the wrong way.

I didn't mean to single you out at all, and I'm sorry if it came off that way. No-one's personal experiences are particularly useful when it comes to talking generalities is what I meant.

 

[trainophile]

I think I'd better rephrase it:

Saying how you feel about something doesn't say anything of the hundreds of people who seem to take it a different way. I'm not one to get offended about much at all really, but I try and keep my eyes out for how things could be taken the wrong way.

I didn't mean to single you out at all, and I'm sorry if it came off that way. No-one's personal experiences are particularly useful when it comes to talking generalities is what I meant.

Fair enough. I was merely illustrating that for every person who gets offended at a well-meant gesture, there will be many others who take it in the spirit intended.

As I cannot get inside anyone else's head but my own I will now withdraw from this conversation. Probably...

 

[TheKnightWho]

Fair enough. I was merely illustrating that for every person who gets offended at a well-meant gesture, there will be many others who take it in the spirit intended.

As I cannot get inside anyone else's head but my own I will now withdraw from this conversation. Probably...

Fair enough. I wasn't trying to say that your opinion doesn't matter, merely that we all need to be careful about superimposing how we see the world on everyone else.

 

[185143]

If somebody is in First Class on a std ticket and has availed themselves of the complementary items, simply moving to Std class is no longer an option on my trains. It's upgrade, off the train or BTP.

Agree with you completely. Taking the seat in first is one thing in itself. Also taking first class refreshments is quite another!

 

[Llanigraham]

The whole point of the discussion disappeared several pages ago as it was supposed to be about First Class availability and usage.

I thought this thread started with some of the stupid excuses some passengers gave for sitting incorrectly in First Class!

 

[bb21]

One little thing will fix all this: Don't think the worst of other people.

People are so easily offended these days that if you are bothered by offending them, you will probably have no time to do anything else.

 

[Tibbs]

One little thing will fix all this: Don't think the worst of other people.

People are so easily offended these days that if you are bothered by offending them, you will probably have no time to do anything else.

It's not about being offended or about thinking the worst of people.

Humans are social animals. Whilst we like to be different in little ways, fitting in to a group is very important.

Whilst one can appreciate the gesture made, it still reinforces that the person who made it thinks you're different and that without knowing anything about you aside from how you appear to be you require special treatment.

A lot of disabled people suffer from depression, and it's often not from they disability itself. It's from the feeling that you're different and don't fit in.

And that can come not just from a big rejection, but from a series of little things that happen every day that confirms that you're not 'one of them'.

It's important to understand that whilst the intention may be good, the effect of what you're doing may not be.

 

[trainophile]

I thought this thread started with some of the stupid excuses some passengers gave for sitting incorrectly in First Class!

Yes but the title appears to have been changed to reflect wider First Class issues. Not that we are strictly adhering to that even now .

It's not about being offended or about thinking the worst of people.

Humans are social animals. Whilst we like to be different in little ways, fitting in to a group is very important.

Whilst one can appreciate the gesture made, it still reinforces that the person who made it thinks you're different and that without knowing anything about you aside from how you appear to be you require special treatment.

A lot of disabled people suffer from depression, and it's often not from they disability itself. It's from the feeling that you're different and don't fit in.

And that can come not just from a big rejection, but from a series of little things that happen every day that confirms that you're not 'one of them'.

It's important to understand that whilst the intention may be good, the effect of what you're doing may not be.

So basically no-one should ever offer anyone a seat just in case they happen to inadvertently pick someone who has sensitivities about it? How sad a world that would be .

 

[Tetchytyke]

Whilst one can appreciate the gesture made, it still reinforces that the person who made it thinks you're different and that without knowing anything about you aside from how you appear to be you require special treatment.

If your disability means you're less able to stand than able-bodied people then you are different, though. That's not the same thing as less valuable. If someone is taking the former to mean the latter then that is their issue and not the issue of the person offering them a seat.

If someone is so sensitive that they'll become angry or depressed at having a seat offered to them, then I would politely suggest they go and seek counselling or other support.

However part of it does come down to how a seat is offered. If the person discreetly asks whether someone would like a seat that is one thing, but yelling down the carriage and making a big song and dance about it quite another.

I will continue to offer seats if I am able to do so, but it's a discreet offer for the person not a pantomime for the rest of the carriage to see how generous I am.

As for the whole women thing, I wouldn't dream of sitting down and leaving my girlfriend standing. She's just as capable of standing as I am, I just think it is polite. With strangers I won't race a woman to a seat but I won't stand up if a woman is standing, that would be patronising.

 

[Tibbs]

As for the whole women thing, I wouldn't dream of sitting down and leaving my girlfriend standing. She's just as capable of standing as I am, I just think it is polite. With strangers I won't race a woman to a seat but I won't stand up if a woman is standing, that would be patronising.

Why is it polite? And isn't it just as polite if she stands for you?
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If your disability means you're less able to stand than able-bodied people then you are different, though. That's not the same thing as less valuable. If someone is taking the former to mean the latter then that is their issue and not the issue of the person offering them a seat.

If someone is so sensitive that they'll become angry or depressed at having a seat offered to them, then I would politely suggest they go and seek counselling or other support.

However part of it does come down to how a seat is offered. If the person discreetly asks whether someone would like a seat that is one thing, but yelling down the carriage and making a big song and dance about it quite another.

My friend's girlfriend is good looking. Very good looking. Traffic Stoppingly good looking. She gets approached by men (and a few women) a lot. The vast majority of them do it politely, pleasantly and deal with it well when she turns them down.

Most people who aren't her would think that it's flattering but since it's been happening to her multiple times a day for many years she struggles with it. I realise that this sounds like 'poor little rich girl' but it illustrates a point - you aren't the only person offering the seat. Others will do it as well, and it's not the first few times that's an issue, it's when it's the 50th or the 100th or the 1000th time. When people do it when you just want to be left alone, and for the 10th time that day you have to smile and say 'no thank you' to being offered (without asking) something you don't want. Is it that person's fault? No, they're just being polite. Does it still make you fell bad? Yes, it can.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Why is it polite? And isn't it just as polite if she stands for you?

Allowing someone else to sit is polite, it works in either direction. It isn't a comment on women being weak.

The blogger "Annie Mole" seems to think so too http://london-underground.blogspot.co.uk/2010/07/tube-seat-etiquette.html

 

[Tibbs]

Allowing someone else to sit is polite, it works in either direction. It isn't a comment on women being weak.

The blogger "Annie Mole" seems to think so too http://london-underground.blogspot.co.uk/2010/07/tube-seat-etiquette.html

Do you take it in turns to stand, or is it always you?

 

[trainophile]

Why is it polite? And isn't it just as polite if she stands for you?
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My friend's girlfriend is good looking. Very good looking. Traffic Stoppingly good looking. She gets approached by men (and a few women) a lot. The vast majority of them do it politely, pleasantly and deal with it well when she turns them down.

Most people who aren't her would think that it's flattering but since it's been happening to her multiple times a day for many years she struggles with it. I realise that this sounds like 'poor little rich girl' but it illustrates a point - you aren't the only person offering the seat. Others will do it as well, and it's not the first few times that's an issue, it's when it's the 50th or the 100th or the 1000th time. When people do it when you just want to be left alone, and for the 10th time that day you have to smile and say 'no thank you' to being offered (without asking) something you don't want. Is it that person's fault? No, they're just being polite. Does it still make you fell bad? Yes, it can.

Being "approached", which I interpret as having sexual connotations, is very different from being offered a seat on a crowded train. I'm not surprised she gets fed up with constantly being made a pass at!

 

[Muzer]

If I don't feel I need a seat and there are people standing, I'll sometimes offer it to anyone who happens to be nearby, male or female. It's the same as holding doors open for people - it's not sexism, it's just polite - I do it for people no matter their sex.

 

[HowardGWR]

See new thread for this.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Is it that person's fault? No, they're just being polite. Does it still make you fell bad? Yes, it can.

If someone is so sensitive that they get depressed over this then being offered a seat is the least of their worries.

Getting narked at constant offers is their problem, not anyone else's.

It's the same principle as "feeling bad" at the way the freesheet promoters practically force the diabolical City AM down my gullet at the tube station in a morning. It's irritating, yeah, but more than that?

 

[TheKnightWho]

Being "approached", which I interpret as having sexual connotations, is very different from being offered a seat on a crowded train. I'm not surprised she gets fed up with constantly being made a pass at!

I'm not so sure it is. I've known several people with disabilities who find the whole thing embarrassing or annoying when they've been offered seats, and it's invariably because it's the N-hundredth time that it's happened and that they'd much rather they could be paid no attention like everyone else.
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If someone is so sensitive that they get depressed over this then being offered a seat is the least of their worries.

Getting narked at constant offers is their problem, not anyone else's.

It's the same principle as "feeling bad" at the way the freesheet promoters practically force the diabolical City AM down my gullet at the tube station in a morning. It's irritating, yeah, but more than that?

That smacks of putting the onus on the recipient, when in reality it's the person who initiates in the first place that should be changing their behaviour. It's also pretty insensitive to say that they're clearly just overreacting, when I'm sure you have little idea of what it's like to be in that position for months/years on end (although I'm happy to be wrong). It's quite a lot more than "irritating" for a lot of people.

 

[Tetchytyke]

That smacks of putting the onus on the recipient, when in reality it's the person who initiates in the first place that should be changing their behaviour. It's also pretty insensitive to say that they're clearly just overreacting, when I'm sure you have little idea of what it's like to be in that position for months/years on end (although I'm happy to be wrong). It's quite a lot more than "irritating" for a lot of people.

The person making the offer should be discreet about it ("Would you like to sit down?" not "look at me, everyone! look at me! I'm giving my seat to the old lady!". I'd never make a song and dance about it, but if someone looks like they're struggling to stand I'd ask them if they'd prefer to sit. In my experience, normally they would prefer to sit, or if they're ok they say so rather than getting stroppy about it.

But, assuming that the offer is made discreetly and politely, if someone gets offended by it that is their problem, not the problem of the person making the offer.

I fully understand why people don't like being humiliated, and making a huge song and dance about giving up a seat would do that.

 

[TheKnightWho]

The person making the offer should be discreet about it ("Would you like to sit down?" not "look at me, everyone! look at me! I'm giving my seat to the old lady!". I'd never make a song and dance about it, but if someone looks like they're struggling to stand I'd ask them if they'd prefer to sit. In my experience, normally they would prefer to sit, or if they're ok they say so rather than getting stroppy about it.

But, assuming that the offer is made discreetly and politely, if someone gets offended by it that is their problem, not the problem of the person making the offer.

I don't think it's about being discrete about it so much as making the offer in the first place. It's quite a big knock on your self-esteem, constantly having people ask if you require assistance or if you need special-treatment.

There are obvious exceptions to this where it's perfectly acceptable - I've rushed to the help of an old-lady struggling up the steps at Vauxhall with a huge suitcase, and I've always helped anyone when they've asked for it. But that's the thing, unless they're asking you or you're getting really obvious visual cues but can tell they're too embarrassed to ask (by that I mean "they're making eye-contact a lot" or "they're moving in your direction", not "they have a crutch" or "they're pregnant"), you risk accidentally sending the message that you think they're weak, or that they're somehow not normal enough to be able to blend in. After all, that's what quite a lot of people with permanent disabilities would very much like to do.

I know no-one means to come off that way, but it's not about the intention in this case as most of us don't have to deal with it. And even if we do, we should be respectful of how they would like to be treated.

Now, where I'd say people should be proactive is in asking others to assist them. If they've asked and people refuse then that's clearly unacceptable.

 

[bb21]

It's not about being offended or about thinking the worst of people.

If one can see it as a kind gesture then why would one be offended?

Whilst one can appreciate the gesture made, it still reinforces that the person who made it thinks you're different and that without knowing anything about you aside from how you appear to be you require special treatment.

But we are all different, otherwise there wouldn't be any need for priority seats, etc. That's the whole point. We all have different needs in different circumstances. The same person may have different needs in different situations. Another person trying to be considerate to one's need does not mean anyone is judging.

The highlighted bit is only what the recipient thinks though. I bet the vast majority of those who chose to give up their seat never thought anything remotely in that way.

A lot of disabled people suffer from depression, and it's often not from they disability itself. It's from the feeling that you're different and don't fit in.

And that can come not just from a big rejection, but from a series of little things that happen every day that confirms that you're not 'one of them'.

There is plenty of help out there. How one feels about being offered a seat is something that one can probably learn to control gradually. Learning to fit in is not about being treated the same as everyone else, but also about accepting that you are different, and that we are all different. If one cannot accept that, then there is not a chance in hell that this feeling of exclusion will go away, because you can always find something that is different about you. It's all in your head as the saying goes.

I would go so far as to say that the desire to be treated just like everyone else does more damage than good in some respects. Discrimination (in a negative way) is clearly wrong, but treating everyone in exactly the same way is not going to be the answer to everything.

It's important to understand that whilst the intention may be good, the effect of what you're doing may not be.

And the alternative is? Shall I just ignore everyone because I might offend them?

 

[ECML180]

That smacks of putting the onus on the recipient, when in reality it's the person who initiates in the first place that should be changing their behaviour.

I'm sure it's not what you mean to say and I apologise if I've got you wrong, but the feeling I get from you is that the only thing you would see as acceptable is not offering seats to someone who may need, in case it gives the indication that they may need them! It's all well and good waiting for someone to ask for a seat but having worked as a sports coached for disabled athletes, I've found many people with disabilities to be shy and unlikely to ask for assistance.

As a sports coach the best course of action is to assess someone's needs and suggest politely how an environment or situation can be adapted to better cater for them, be it offering a lighter discus and something or hold as a support when throwing, or offering a seat to them on a train.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I don't think it's about being discrete about it so much as making the offer in the first place. It's quite a big knock on your self-esteem, constantly having people ask if you require assistance or if you need special-treatment.

That again is more about the disabled person's perception rather than anything based in reality. Needing a seat more than me is not "weak" or "inferior", and if they think it is then they need to work through those feelings.

Self esteem is about accepting yourself and accepting your own limitations, but accepting that those limitations do not define you. One may not be able to stand on a swaying crowded bus, but that doesn't mean one is sub-human.

I use the tube, which is what I'm basing my experience on, and there are frequently people who are clearly struggling to stand up in the crowds- these can be disabled people, people with young children, pregnant people. I don't think it inappropriate to see if they would prefer to sit down.

 

[TheKnightWho]

That again is more about the disabled person's perception rather than anything based in reality. Needing a seat more than me is not "weak" or "inferior", and if they think it is then they need to work through those feelings.

Self esteem is about accepting yourself and accepting your own limitations, but accepting that those limitations do not define you. One may not be able to stand on a swaying crowded bus, but that doesn't mean one is sub-human.

I use the tube, which is what I'm basing my experience on, and there are frequently people who are clearly struggling to stand up in the crowds- these can be disabled people, people with young children, pregnant people. I don't think it inappropriate to see if they would prefer to sit down.

And those aren't the sort of people I'd object to offering a seat to. It's when people offer a woman a seat because it's 'chivalrous' that I'm sceptical. At best it's patronising, at worst it's self-righteous as well.

However, you can't just say that it's someone's fault for feeling a particular way about something. Telling someone that they shouldn't be upset about someone is about as useless as telling someone their broken arm should just get on and heal itself; it might sound like a leap of logic, but all it leads to is people suppressing their emotions rather than changing how they actually feel about things. We all need to accept our limitations, and I don't doubt that many people with disabilities do so, but what they don't like is being constantly reminded of them. If they're being offered a seat because they're a woman, then it really is an implicit way of saying that "you're a woman and therefore less able than I am", which I don't think any of us would agree with.
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I'm sure it's not what you mean to say and I apologise if I've got you wrong, but the feeling I get from you is that the only thing you would see as acceptable is not offering seats to someone who may need, in case it gives the indication that they may need them! It's all well and good waiting for someone to ask for a seat but having worked as a sports coached for disabled athletes, I've found many people with disabilities to be shy and unlikely to ask for assistance.

As a sports coach the best course of action is to assess someone's needs and suggest politely how an environment or situation can be adapted to better cater for them, be it offering a lighter discus and something or hold as a support when throwing, or offering a seat to them on a train.

I'm not sure that's far from the truth, but one thing I've noticed is that the last thing people with disabilities or things that "aren't normal" is to be reminded of that. It's very circumstantial, though, and I imagine much of it comes from how it's worded. If you prephrase it with "I'm getting off soon, so please have my seat", or even just get up without saying a word when they're the closest person, that's probably fine. If you make it obvious that it's simply because they have a disability/they're a woman/they're somehow different to you, that's probably not acceptable.

I think there's a difference between those with permanent disabilities and those with temporary ones, too, for a number of reasons.

 

[trainophile]

I can't help wondering whether these offended people refuse to use a disabled railcard, as surely that singles them out too.

As for having been 'patronised' (for the want of a better word) several times already that day, how likely is that really? Presumably they don't spend their entire time boarding crowded trains or buses, so would generally find a vacant seat anyway.

I was waiting to cross a busy road in town today, and a blind man with a white stick was punching a bit desperately at the button on the crossing post on the opposite side. It seemed to be a particularly long traffic lights cycle, and many other crossers had made a dash for it, leaving this chap standing alone. I hesitated for a minute, wondering whether to offer to help (I had just crossed from the other side with the 'chancers', but would happily have taken him back to where I'd come from), then remembered this thread and decided not to in case I offended him. I did however stand watching at a distance until another pedestrian appeared, who also wanted to cross, so that at least he wasn't waiting alone.

You win .

 

[infobleep]

I remember hearing on the radio once that someone sat in first class during a weekend where first class upgrades were available. According to them they were going to pay when the guard came round.

However when the guard came round he told them they should have bought the upgrade off him before sitting in first class. There argument was, what is the difference, I'm going to pay whatever happens.

That was a few years ago now I heard that story.

 

[trainophile]

I remember hearing on the radio once that someone sat in first class during a weekend where first class upgrades were available. According to them they were going to pay when the guard came round.

However when the guard came round he told them they should have bought the upgrade off him before sitting in first class. There argument was, what is the difference, I'm going to pay whatever happens.

That was a few years ago now I heard that story.

A bit difficult if it was an 11 coach Pendolino and he had luggage to cart about. The guard could have been anywhere.

When I was in 1st in a Virgin train one Sunday last year, a chap sitting across the aisle bought an upgrade off the guard with no problem whatsoever. I thought that was how it was meant to work.

 

[jon0844]

I've always sat in first class and upgraded to Weekend First on East Coast without any problem at all.

There's a big difference in doing it on a train with a crew and, say, a DOO service where there's nobody to take your money - and an RPI won't let you pay when caught.

I do think people need to be aware of the difference!