1st Class Excuses and discussion on 1st provision

[Flamingo]

Things haven't changed much have they?

Most FGW managers seem to think a TM who gets complaints sent in is a nuisance to them rather than actually checking to see why the complaints are coming in or indeed, if they are even justified.

A decent manager in such circumstances would investigate and if they found the complaints were unfounded would then ask the pertinent question 'why are my other staff NOT getting these complaints?'

I had plenty of regulars who thought it grossly unfair of me to skip checking some coaches and walk directly to F leaving Bristol, Paddington bound, like shooting (Bath/Chippenham) fish in a barrel frankly.
Likewise:
'Waking people up' only to find 50%+ without valid tickets (must make them sleepy - surely an insomnia cure missed by the medical profession?)

When double manning, keeping hidden in the buffet kitchen and suddenly appearing as soon as the platform was cleared leaving Paddington in reverse formation -the look of joy on the genuine 1st class punters faces was worth it alone!

Some evenings and weekends, going off unbarriered uplatforms in Pad, I ignore First and go straight to A. That is REALLY not playing the game, in some peoples eyes! The Weekend First upgrades will wait, and the odd £5 upgrade to Reading in coach G&H is more than balanced out by the £21.50 Anytime singles to Reading in coaches A to E!

 

[455driver]

How is it a sheep mentality? I assume by sheep you mean all people doing the same thing? At that point isn't that the people who sit in the right class since they're by far the majority?

And this isn't mumsnet, so you can't say something rude (commuters are sheep, again? *yawn*) and make it all ok with a smiley.

Sheep as in follow the crowd (like a flock of sheep), if he is so concerned about the crowding then travel earlier in the morning (before the crowds) and in the evening travel later (after the crowds). It isnt rocket science is it!

Why cant people get the point that if they decide to travel at the same time as everyone else then they will have to put up with the crowds, no (realistic) amount of money on signalling, track or new trains will ever be enough to sort that problem.

The only practical solution is to avoid the busiest times of the day.

 

[daddsie71b]

The only possible solution to demand outstripping supply is to radically reprice tickets to shift demand to less constrained services, especially on commuter routes. There are loads of ways to do this.

Ah, like the network away breaks or network cards, a whole lot of new excuses. No one told me I couldnt travel in first class with a NAB at 8:30 on a Monday morning etc.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Between Waterloo and Woking/Richmond/Hounslow the trains are almost entirely at maximum length and run at the maximum capacity that the signalling will allow. Likewise Victoria to Three Bridges, Liverpool Street to Shenfield and many others. To make big increases in capacity you are talking about things like Crossrail2 and other new and very expensive infrastructure projects which are the remit of central government and not transient franchise operators.

I'm just waiting for someone to suggest stopping more mainline SWT services at Clapham in peak hours as a viable solution now.:roll:

I'm aware that I'm venturing rather a way off topic, but why does signalling infrastructure (in absolute blocK areas) constrain the length of trains? Is it forbidden to have a train so long that it occupies two signal sections at once?

 

[daddsie71b]

On a lighter note, back in the 90's working a Waterloo Weymouth fast, mid morning, had a gun toting arab refuse me entry into 1st class to check tickets. Some Saudi prince was travelling and his bodyguards thought he had bought the coach, our boys in blue met the train at Bomo and put them right!

 

[ainsworth74]

I'm aware that I'm venturing rather a way off topic, but why does signalling infrastructure (in absolute blocK areas) constrain the length of trains? Is it forbidden to have a train so long that it occupies two signal sections at once?

The issue is the frequency, the trains cannot be run any more frequently than they already are on the existing infrastructure. Trains can occupy more than one section (though this causes its own capacity constraints).

 

[Moonshot]

The issue is the frequency, the trains cannot be run any more frequently than they already are on the existing infrastructure. Trains can occupy more than one section (though this causes its own capacity constraints).

Add in the fact that low line speeds are a big constraint in certain areas as well......

 

[Bald Rick]

The issue is the frequency, the trains cannot be run any more frequently than they already are on the existing infrastructure. Trains can occupy more than one section (though this causes its own capacity constraints).

And particularly in South London, many connecting junctions, or lines between adjacent junctions, are long enough to hold an 8 coach train, but not a 10 or 12 coach train. So where trains could stand for a minute or 2 to pick up their path, they now can't and have to be timetabled straight through the junction. This is another constraint on the Timetable, and the more constraints, the lower the usable capacity. Examples at Herne Hill, Tulse Hill, West Norwood, Selhurst, Streatham common to name but 4.

 

[ainsworth74]

Basically the railway down in those parts is running at and perhaps even beyond capacity in some locations!

 

[Tibbs]

Sheep as in follow the crowd (like a flock of sheep), if he is so concerned about the crowding then travel earlier in the morning (before the crowds) and in the evening travel later (after the crowds). It isnt rocket science is it!

Why cant people get the point that if they decide to travel at the same time as everyone else then they will have to put up with the crowds, no (realistic) amount of money on signalling, track or new trains will ever be enough to sort that problem.

The only practical solution is to avoid the busiest times of the day.

Can we please put "people should travel at different times" in the same box as "let's get more peak trains to stop at Clapham Junction".

They both demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of the respective situations. People travel in the peak for a reason, and for most of them it's not because they enjoy it.

I think it would be cheaper and more practicable to enlarge the railway than it would be to get (tens of?) thousands of businesses in city centres around the country to completely change their business practises.

 

[broadgage]

- - - -When double manning, keeping hidden in the buffet kitchen and suddenly appearing as soon as the platform was cleared leaving Paddington in reverse formation -the look of joy on the genuine 1st class punters faces was worth it alone!

Agree, I regularly travel first class from Paddington to the West and have been annoyed by the frequent misuse of First class, especialy between Paddington and Reading.

I am allways pleased to see a thorough ticket check as soon as possible after leaving London.
Dont understand the bit about the train being in reverse formation though ? Surely hiding in the Buffet and then checking tickets in first class is effective no matter which way round the train may be ?

 

[shx]

How often do you see trains carting about empty first class air?

Pretty often. These trains aren't carring much used second class air either.
On the grand financial view, I'm paying more money than first class needs, just to make your ticket cheaper - I've no problem with this. I've a problem with people thanking me by telling me, that I'm essentially anti-social capitalist scum, though.

Dont understand the bit about the train being in reverse formation though ? Surely hiding in the Buffet and then checking tickets in first class is effective no matter which way round the train may be ?

Normal formation has 1st all the way out at the train's front - not much reason to walk all the way unless you paid for first or second is full.
Reverse the formation, and the first couple of coaches your walking by is first - that's when some people think - 'hey, it's not long till I leave again - let's enjoy these seats (and maybe snag a free coffee/tea)'.

 

[AndrewP]

There are two issues here in my view:

1. We need more capacity that we can't easily get - I mean in London the only answer is more Cross Rail style tunnelling
2. Some people are freeloading cheapskates who want something for nothing

It is obvious that we are in a time of change with significant electrification and new trains on order but maybe we need to consider what we do with older trains being replaced e.g. would displaced HSTs going to Cross Country and doubled voyagers throughout work for example?

Reducing first class would make little difference other than reducing the number of discounted tickets in there.

 

[Clip]

Normal formation has 1st all the way out at the train's front - not much reason to walk all the way unless you paid for first or second is full.
Reverse the formation, and the first couple of coaches your walking by is first - that's when some people think - 'hey, it's not long till I leave again - let's enjoy these seats (and maybe snag a free coffee/tea)'.

Havent you got it the wrong way round. Reverse formation would have them out at the front way past the barriers as 1st is always closest to the barriers as a nice perk for travelling 1st.

 

[jon0844]

The industry has for some time been only too well aware of demand outstripping supply.

When FCC took over the GN line in 2006, it was already working on capacity improvements on the line (especially to Cambridge). A lot of this work was stuff that fell below the radar of the average commuter.

It needed some line improvements, power supply upgrades and much more - long before just getting some new trains to make them 12 carriages (and even then, where to get those extra carriages from - hence more problems on the Thameslink side).

The timetable was massively adjusted and tweaked over many years to iron out many 'bugs' where bottlenecks meant some services rarely able to keep to time in some places. A mix of computer modelling/predictions and real-world surveys probably helped with that.

That alone means that I doubt any one person could come up with a master plan and expect it to work, so all those people on forums and social media coming up with solutions are probably missing about 99% of the problems and living in a fantasy land.

Of course, there's no harm in people suggesting simplistic solutions and discussing with people why they might or might not work. No harm in discussing things with a view to learning from people 'in the know' what is actually happening behind the scenes, or alternatives.

Far better than just arrogantly suggesting the industry is corrupt, clueless and anyone with half a brain could solve things in 5 minutes.

Rather like a lot of commuters, sadly. I know - I've sat with them on trains and heard them ranting and really had to bite my lip and resist jumping in to explain why nearly everything they just said was impossible - or would cost millions (and then asking them who should pay for it).

 

[DarloRich]

Pretty often. These trains aren't carring much used second class air either.
On the grand financial view, I'm paying more money than first class needs, just to make your ticket cheaper - I've no problem with this. I've a problem with people thanking me by telling me, that I'm essentially anti-social capitalist scum, though.

WOW !!!!!!!!!! I don’t think that is what I actually said! I dont have an issue with First Class. If you can afford it on a regualr basis good luck to you.

What I DID say, in a tongue in check fashion, is that there is a debate to be held about the level of first class provision against that provided for second class passengers.

Please accept my apologies that I did not present my argument in the most obsequious, forelock tugging, gawd bless y gov’nor, please sir may we have some more, non turning my back on my elders and betters, averting my eyes, subservient manner.

Living, as I do in the 21st century, I was unaware that such 18th century manners were required when my unworthy eyes should happen to glance, for even the most fleeting of moments, in the direction of the sainted first class passengers. I shall now present my self for transportation to Australia.

 

[HowardGWR]

Havent you got it the wrong way round. Reverse formation would have them out at the front way past the barriers as 1st is always closest to the barriers as a nice perk for travelling 1st.

Hmm. I wonder if Inter-Cities with Reading stops would not be better off the other way around? If it meant the chance of 2nd class pax trooping through 1st was eliminated, that could be welcomed by 1st class pax. At Reading it makes not much difference which end the 1st is, I appreciate (which is why it's seen as a 'perk' I suppose). The guard could stand sentinel at the entrance examining tickets (with the interconnecting door locked until departure possibly? ).

 

[Squaddie]

Hmm. I wonder if Inter-Cities with Reading stops would not be better off the other way around? If it meant the chance of 2nd class pax trooping through 1st was eliminated, that could be welcomed by 1st class pax. At Reading it makes not much difference which end the 1st is, I appreciate (which is why it's seen as a 'perk' I suppose). The guard could stand sentinel at the entrance examining tickets (with the interconnecting door locked until departure possibly? ).

I like having first class at the London end. On the rare occasions when first class is nearest the buffers at Swansea the first class accommodation is invariably taken over by the local chavs heading home to Neath and Port Talbot with their Primark and TK Maxx bags, and the guard (perhaps understandably) seems reluctant to confront them and turf them out.

 

[Tibbs]

But then you surely must understand that during off peak times then those lengthened trains will also be carting around a lot of standard class fresh air also and incurring the higher track access charges for doing so too.

You have to remember that lots of trains specifically being bought for the peak time travel is not really cost effective as the rest of the day they sit around, in the main, doing nothing till the PM peak.

That will have to be paid for. And do you know how?

IF STD is full and First is empty in the peaks on some routes, why not drop the season ticket price of First, fill up First class with people willing or able to pay a (smaller) premium that the one currently on offer and create some space in Standard? Do some work on the relative cross price elasticity of First Class tickets and Standard to sort out the best price differential and you could have a nice revenue earner.

I bet there are lots of routes where standard is brimming but there are loads of spaces in 1st.

 

[HowardGWR]

I like having first class at the London end. On the rare occasions when first class is nearest the buffers at Swansea the first class accommodation is invariably taken over by the local chavs heading home to Neath and Port Talbot with their Primark and TK Maxx bags, and the guard (perhaps understandably) seems reluctant to confront them and turf them out.

Why not email the management with that comment? As easy as posting here - just a suggestion.

 

[shx]

WOW !!!!!!!!!! I don’t think that is what I actually said!

Indeed it isn't.
Sorry for not correctly seperating that statement from the first line aimed at you.
The latter line was aimed at the vast majority of anti-first-class advocators, who are against mainly for anti-capitalist reasons.
--
Discussion about getting rid of first class on certain routes because nobody uses it is perfectly fine - as other non-envy based arguments are.

 

[Clip]

IF STD is full and First is empty in the peaks on some routes, why not drop the season ticket price of First, fill up First class with people willing or able to pay a (smaller) premium that the one currently on offer and create some space in Standard? Do some work on the relative cross price elasticity of First Class tickets and Standard to sort out the best price differential and you could have a nice revenue earner.

I bet there are lots of routes where standard is brimming but there are loads of spaces in 1st.

There may be, there may be not. The problem is that peoples perception of 1st being empty on 'Their ' route is probably false anyway. There is every chance that 1st is empty, or with very few people in it on the service that they take every day. They and we dont know if it is more full on the rest of the services in the peak on that route because they and we dont see every service so it is impossible to know for sure yet some people base their who arguement on one train in the morning and one at night.

They dont deviate. They dont see it as a problem because they do not experience any other service except the one they take to and from work.


First class seasons cost a fortune, there is no need to trim the fares just to fill up the spaces, its obvious from certain posters on here that they dont want to pay any more so why should they trim the fares??

 

[DarloRich]

Indeed it isn't.
Sorry for not correctly seperating that statement from the first line aimed at you.
The latter line was aimed at the vast majority of anti-first-class advocators, who are against mainly for anti-capitalist reasons.
--
Discussion about getting rid of first class on certain routes because nobody uses it is perfectly fine - as other non-envy based arguments are.

In that case we are in agreement. Perhaps i should have worded the point differently -Perhaps numbers of each carriage offered to each class considering relative passenger loadings and economic returns - i apologise for my overly sarcastic repsonse!

Now, which envy/non envy debate shall we move onto?

 

[shx]

Havent you got it the wrong way round. Reverse formation would have them out at the front way past the barriers as 1st is always closest to the barriers as a nice perk for travelling 1st.

To be honest, I'm not using FGW on a regular base. However when I did, First was always on the western end. Looking at Googled images, I've probably just got bad luck...

 

[Tibbs]

First class seasons cost a fortune, there is no need to trim the fares just to fill up the spaces, its obvious from certain posters on here that they dont want to pay any more so why should they trim the fares??

I know people who have the view that paying the extra for First is worthwhile. I also know people who don't buy it, but if the differential were smaller they would. I also know people who would never buy a first ticket while a cheaper alternative exists.

Demand is on a curve - if you drop the price, more people will buy. How many more depends on the relative elasticity.

If by dropping the price by 10% gets 15% more people buying, then it's worthwile. Of course it's not that simple as people will already be buying standard seasons, so the price drop would need to generate more than the differential between standard and first class.

As to whether the numbers are there - that's something only the TOCs would know about since they're the ones doing passenger counts and access to specific train information.

I have no idea if the TOCs have already considered this, but I certainly would were I in their position.

 

[Tetchytyke]

neither is expecting people not to be in first class carriages during peak times when the standard accommodation is full to the rafters.

Why is this unreasonable?

Unless the train is so full that you cannot physically fit in the standard class compartment, then there is no reason at all why you should be in first class.

"I'm far too important to stand" is not a reason.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I bet there are lots of routes where standard is brimming but there are loads of spaces in 1st.

Virgin didn't get the proportions right with their Pendolinos, especially the 9-coach ones, with pretty much a 60/40 split in favour of standard.

But in the peaks I can't think of an operator where first class is deserted and they're clinging to the sides in standard. Virgin, EC and FGW all get good loadings in first, as do XC and EMT, and the rest basically only have one or two small compartments on their trains. Off peak can be different, but then they do try and price their first class advance single appropriately to fill up these trains.

TPE has problems with overcrowding, but not just in standard. Get a TPE train out of Leeds or Manchester in the peaks and every first class seat will be taken. Which is why it's even more important that standard class passengers who choose to sit there get clobbered.

 

[broadgage]

Hmm. I wonder if Inter-Cities with Reading stops would not be better off the other way around? If it meant the chance of 2nd class pax trooping through 1st was eliminated, that could be welcomed by 1st class pax. At Reading it makes not much difference which end the 1st is, I appreciate (which is why it's seen as a 'perk' I suppose). The guard could stand sentinel at the entrance examining tickets (with the interconnecting door locked until departure possibly? ).

I would prefer that on FGW HSTs, that first class be at the country end, furthest from the barriers at Paddington.
However it seems that I am in a minorirty regarding this. Many FC customers take the view that "we dont pay the most to walk the furthest" My view is that a longer walk at Paddington is a price worth paying to avoid the hordes boarding in first and then walking through the Pullman with rucksacks, baby carriages, and dogs, and causing disruption.

 

[Flamingo]

I would prefer that on FGW HSTs, that first class be at the country end, furthest from the barriers at Paddington.
However it seems that I am in a minorirty regarding this. Many FC customers take the view that "we dont pay the most to walk the furthest" My view is that a longer walk at Paddington is a price worth paying to avoid the hordes boarding in first and then walking through the Pullman with rucksacks, baby carriages, and dogs, and causing disruption.

This is something that gets proposed regularly, I know staff would prefer it! As First Class is now under review, why not send an e-mail with your views to Customer Services, now would be a good time

 

[cyclebytrain]

Something that occurs to me (and please correct me if I'm wrong) with the current "correct" formation, late comers can board through a door next to the power car, whereas in reverse formation they (officially) have to walk another 20m to the door at the other end of coach A which might be seen as making the difference between an on time and a late departure? As I say, just something that occurs to me.

 

[Squaddie]

Why not email the management with that comment? As easy as posting here - just a suggestion.

When the train is in reverse formation it's invariably going to be for operational reasons that are outside the control of the train company, so I don't think it's something that they would be able to do anything about. It rarely happens, but when it does I find that a polite email to customer services expressing my disappointment with the ambience of the accommodation results in a generous voucher.