MatthewRead
On Moderation
Well I would like to see some pictures of the new seats.
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1972 Stock: Increasing costs
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Nym
Established Member
There's new seats?
I'm sure it was only a new design of seat cover...(!)
I'm sure it was only a new design of seat cover...(!)
tranzitjim
Member
Does Bombardier also have the contract to build the new DTS (Deep Tube Stock)?
So in part, we are waiting for Bombardier to become free of producing anything else, so we can use the whole factory to bulid only the Deep Tube Stock?
As for the signaling, must the signals all be changed before the new stock starts operating on the network?
If so, would it be too hard for us to design the new DTS sets to conform to both signaling systems?
Peter Mugridge
Veteran Member
It's still at the tendering stage; Bombardier is one of those bidding to build it and probably has a better chance than the rest because of their experience with the 2009 Stock and the S Stock but whether or not they will actually win it, it is too early to tell.
Nym
Established Member
How does their experience with 2009TS and S Stock help exactly?
Alstom and it's bloodline have experience with; 1996TS, 1995TS, D78 Surface, 1973TS, C Stock, 1972TS, 1967TS, Battery Locomotives etc etc.
Alstom and it's bloodline have experience with; 1996TS, 1995TS, D78 Surface, 1973TS, C Stock, 1972TS, 1967TS, Battery Locomotives etc etc.
NTfL will be competitively tendered - the ITT has been issued to Alstom, Bombardier, Siemens, CAF and Hitachi. Bombardier and Hitachi have manufacturing facilities in the UK. Alstom are considering opening up a UK plant in conjunction with HS2 train bidding.
None of the bidders are "UK" companies - Bombardier is a Canadian company with a UK plant, and Hitachi are a Japanese company with a UK plant. Politically, it may be easier to award to one of these 2 companies, however public procurement rules need to be followed, and mean this cannot be an official evaluation criterion.
None of the bidders are "UK" companies - Bombardier is a Canadian company with a UK plant, and Hitachi are a Japanese company with a UK plant. Politically, it may be easier to award to one of these 2 companies, however public procurement rules need to be followed, and mean this cannot be an official evaluation criterion.
Nym
Established Member
It is also now subject to the public utilities regulations as from April. Fun, fun, fun.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
DTS is a different project...
NTfL will be awarded in line with OJEU regulations...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
DTS is a different project...
NTfL will be awarded in line with OJEU regulations...
tranzitjim
Member
I may guess that, 2009 and S fleets are the current things, where as most of the Alstom stocks you listed above are ages ago.
The most recent technology Alsom has in that list is the 1996 stock, and ironically is the only existing stock that LU may stay with after this new TS stock is in service. Even that is 20 years ago.
The irony here is in my home city of Melbourne Australia, where Bombardier decades ago took over a local factory known as Commonwealth Engineering. Bombardier have recently won the contract to build the E class trams for Melbourne.
Bombardier was almost a given, because their local factory here, built trams of various classes over a 20 year period right up to early 1990s.
When they went to the old B class tram designs, expecting it to be a benefit in the design of the new trams, it was thrown out. The technology changes that have been since then is so radical, that it demanded a complete new redesign.
The delays in construction went for years, and Bombardier officials have confessed to have egg on their faces for these delays.
How I read the respective advanatges is,
Alstom, the 1996 stock is most likely to be the basis of the new Deep Tube stock and may need only minor alterations. If LU replace all but the 1996 stock, there is still the chance of having one standard fleet across all DT lines.
Bombardier, have got two more modern and current designs, but none will fit the deep tube routes. More modern than the Alstom, and LU can function with only one contractor for all maintenance across all three LU fleets.
Nym
Established Member
Just a small note, in terms of the train (not necessarily the equipment bolted to it) 2009TS isn't that much more modern than 1995TS (Alstom's most recent offering).
The specification for NTfL is a significant departure from both of these designs.
The specification for NTfL is a significant departure from both of these designs.
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philthetube
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Also, the 95 stock is newer, both in build date and equipment than the 96
Mikey C
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The most recent Alstom trains are the top up 96 stock trains ordered when they went to 7 car (albeit still with older technology than the 95 stock!)
As more trains are needed for the Northern and Jubilee lines, this will be 99% certain to be given to Alstom.
My earlier point, is that the NTfL will be an enormous order over a decade, and I'd be staggered if it went to somebody without some sort of UK assembly or at least decent workshare, whatever the EU rules say.
The most recently built, perhaps. Those additional 96 stock were more or less just built to the existing plans. Almost anybody with the right financing could build trains from the drawings, but the actual design work is by far and away the most challenging part of it.
Nym
Established Member
Very little work was done to change the design of a Trailer into that of a Special Trailer for 1996TS lengthening as part of that project. It was almost completely to the original drawings.
And I think you'll find that JNAT (Jubilee Northern Additional Trains) will need to go for OJEU tender the same as NTfL. Possibly with an IITT that may end up with the bidder offering to, for less than clone trains, build a new train to the new standards (that is actually a requirement unless a significant number of concessions are made) and convert the remaining 1996TS into 1995TS Mk.2 or some other similar coding. Likely to involve re-tractioning with IGBTs and a fair few unseen changes to bring it into line with 1995TS. Remember for the JLE, Alstom offered to build more 1996TS for less than the cost of modifying the 1983TS...
There would of course inly the problem that 1996TS is an AP-JNP maintained train, and 1995TS is Alstom maintained...
And I think you'll find that JNAT (Jubilee Northern Additional Trains) will need to go for OJEU tender the same as NTfL. Possibly with an IITT that may end up with the bidder offering to, for less than clone trains, build a new train to the new standards (that is actually a requirement unless a significant number of concessions are made) and convert the remaining 1996TS into 1995TS Mk.2 or some other similar coding. Likely to involve re-tractioning with IGBTs and a fair few unseen changes to bring it into line with 1995TS. Remember for the JLE, Alstom offered to build more 1996TS for less than the cost of modifying the 1983TS...
There would of course inly the problem that 1996TS is an AP-JNP maintained train, and 1995TS is Alstom maintained...
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bluegoblin7
Established Member
There's a new moquette design (grey & brown version of the 'Barman' used on the 92, 95 & 96TS) but I don't believe it's out and about in the wild yet.
Certainly the three refurb trains only have the new floor coverings.
Nym
Established Member
There are two different "New" floor coverings and groove designs out in the wild, train 4 should be done relatively soon.
cactustwirly
Established Member
The new refurbished interior has been revealed!
https://twitter.com/TfL/status/715210751024168962/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
http://districtdavesforum.co.uk/thread/22526/72-stock-serve-2030s?page=15
https://twitter.com/TfL/status/715210751024168962/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
http://districtdavesforum.co.uk/thread/22526/72-stock-serve-2030s?page=15
tranzitjim
Member
With all this costs in upgrading the 1972 stock, just to make it last a few more years, is it not more worth while to bring forward the 2025 stock?
Why is there such a long wait for 2025?
Why cant we get 2017 stock?
Why is there such a long wait for 2025?
Why cant we get 2017 stock?
HSTEd
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NtFL might not end up being done under OJEU regs.....
SpacePhoenix
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How much larger or smaller is the diameter of the Piccadilly line and Bakerloo line tunnels compared with the Victoria line tunnels?
Dstock7080
Established Member
'09 Stock were built specifically for the Victoria Line and will not fit the Piccadilly or Bakerloo.
'73 Stock will not fit the Bakerloo tunnels.
It's a bit complex, so read this for the current status: http://www.londonreconnections.com/2016/ssr-signalling-upgrade-again-and-ntfl/
~1.7m vs ~1.8m IIRC.
Mikey C
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Yes, isn't the issue that the Bakerloo line is too twisty for the "longer" carriages to fit, i.e. the 73 stock plus the newer 1995 and 1996 stock
The 2009 stock has the shorter carriages, but they've got a slightly larger diameter (which gives noticeably better headroom for a tall person like myself!)
I assume the 1992 stock would fit the Bakerloo?
Possibly but this isn't too reliable either hence its early replacement by the NTfL programme.
MatthewRead
On Moderation
I wish they would replace the Piccadilly line stock in that year because then we can get a daily service from Turnham Green as promised
Nym
Established Member
I wish they would replace the Piccadilly line stock in that year because then we can get a daily service from Turnham Green as promised
There is a daily service from Turnham Green...
MatthewRead
On Moderation
There isn't currently Piccadilly line trains only stop at Turnham Green after 22:30 and until 6:46 Monday-Saturday and 7:51 on Sundays other times they
go straight through without stopping
Nym
Established Member
There isn't currently Piccadilly line trains only stop at Turnham Green after 22:30 and until 6:46 Monday-Saturday and 7:51 on Sundays other times they
go straight through without stopping
That is indeed daily then...
MatthewRead
On Moderation
What I mean is no all day service until new trains are introduced:mad:
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