1972 Stock: Increasing costs

[cactustwirly]

Just read this article:
http://www.londonreconnections.com/...-the-increasing-cost-of-the-bakerloos-trains/

...Some kind of life-extension work on the 72 Stock has always been planned. Even ignoring the fact that its nominal life-span was 40 years, a London Underground condition study back in June 2013 had concluded that repairs were needed within four years to ensure the fleet continued to meet relevant safety standards regarding performance in a collision or derailment. With the announcement that the Bakerloo would not receive the NTfL until 2025 at the earliest a full programme of renewal effectively became guaranteed and work began to assess just how extensive the work would need to be....

And it looks like the '72 stock will require a lot of money spent on them to last until NTfL both on repairs and DDA compliance. It also seems like they are nearing the top of the 'bathtub' curve (ie costs will increase and reliability) explained in this article: http://www.londonreconnections.com/2010/the-victoria-line-bathtubs-and-breakdowns/

Would it not be more cost effective to replace them now using an existing design like the 2009 stock, and use the NTfL for '73 and '92 stock?


I don't want to turn this into a D stock vs '72 stock argument (as it had been done to death) but IMHO the '72 should have been replaced before the D.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

Are they including the unit parked up the Aldwych branch?

 

[Nym]

No, it's only the Bakerloo Fleet IIRC.
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The 09TS design won't fit on the Bakerloo, nor will 1995TS or 1996TS, even 1983TS has a slim chance of fitting.

Only recent one with a chance is 1992TS, and no, just no!

 

[TheNewNo2]

In an ideal world the 1972 (and probably 1973) stocks would have been replaced before the D Stock, however the decision was made to give SSL a single (well, ish) fleet for ease of operation and to reduce unit costs by economies of scale.

 

[Dstock7080]

Are they including the unit parked up the Aldwych branch?

The Aldwych train is a '72 mkI, so is not included in the Bakerloo fleet.

 

[hassaanhc]

Wasn't the entire S Stock order signed at the same time, so at some time in the 2000s?
I remember the Piccadilly Line upgrade should have been in progress by now but it got delayed, which in turn delayed the Bakerloo Line upgrade. There just doesn't appear to be the urgency to replace the 72ts, unlike the replacement of the West Anglia fleet .

 

[TheNewNo2]

Wasn't the entire S Stock order signed at the same time, so at some time in the 2000s?
I remember the Piccadilly Line upgrade should have been in progress by now but it got delayed, which in turn delayed the Bakerloo Line upgrade. There just doesn't appear to be the urgency to replace the 72ts, unlike the replacement of the West Anglia fleet .

Well by this point the 1972 stock won't survive to NTFL without significant work, so one may as well do the significant work and let other lines take NTFL first.

 

[tranzitjim]

We need to urgently look at the new deep tube stock to replace both the 72 and 73 fleets very soon.
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While I am here, how advanced are we with the S stock replacing D stock? Are all the D stock out of service yet?

 

[Dstock7080]

While I am here, how advanced are we with the S stock replacing D stock? Are all the D stock out of service yet?

(way off topic!)
there are still 48 S7 trains outstanding to be delivered to London and around 50 D Stock trains available for service. Each day around 25 trains are formed of S7 Stock (on the 'main line') less than two-thirds still to replace.

 

[NYCSubway137]

Honestly, I hope TfL can come up with a solution on how the keep the 72 stock running longer until the New Tube for London arrives.

 

[Nym]

LUL Don't have any choice in the matter, it needs to keep running, it will be kept running...

 

[306024]

Talking about Bakerloo line stock, does anyone know why the seats generally look disgusting? Apologies if this has been asked before but it really is noticeable compared to other tube stock.

 

[Nym]

Talking about Bakerloo line stock, does anyone know why the seats generally look disgusting? Apologies if this has been asked before but it really is noticeable compared to other tube stock.

In what way exactly?

They're the only seats left that are constructed in that manner, and have steel woven into the moqette.

Also, it is brown...

 

[306024]

In what way exactly?

They're the only seats left that are constructed in that manner, and have steel woven into the moqette.

Also, it is brown...

In the way that they simply look filthy. Travelled on one today where one seat had recently been replaced and the contrast was remarkable. Sure the construction may make them more expensive to maintain, but the clean seat was blue rather than brown, which kind of explains why the others look awful.

 

[hassaanhc]

In the way that they simply look filthy. Travelled on one today where one seat had recently been replaced and the contrast was remarkable. Sure the construction may make them more expensive to maintain, but the clean seat was blue rather than brown, which kind of explains why the others look awful.

Have the seats ever been replaced since the early 1990s refurbishment? With the usage that LUL gets, and with the general dirt present in the tunnels, one does wonder why the seats are not replaced every few years. Or even why hard plastic seating, that is much easier to clean and keep it that way, is not used.
*Puts on tin foil hat*

 

[Nym]

In the way that they simply look filthy. Travelled on one today where one seat had recently been replaced and the contrast was remarkable. Sure the construction may make them more expensive to maintain, but the clean seat was blue rather than brown, which kind of explains why the others look awful.

The seats do last a good number of years, and they are replaced when required to a set out set of minimum acceptable condition statements, that come down from quite high up.

If you replace a damaged seat, you would use a new one, or another old one off the rack. But if you sent a seat off to be reconditioned that wasn't deemed unacceptable by these conditions, it will just be sent back, so where do you keep all these seats, on the trains of course.
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Have the seats ever been replaced since the early 1990s refurbishment? With the usage that LUL gets, and with the general dirt present in the tunnels, one does wonder why the seats are not replaced every few years. Or even why hard plastic seating, that is much easier to clean and keep it that way, is not used.
*Puts on tin foil hat*

As above, they're replaced on condition.

Unless you mean replaced fully with a new design, in that case, no... It's the same design.

 

[Dstock7080]

Unless you mean replaced fully with a new design, in that case, no... It's the same design.

Seating and flooring:
During November 2015 we will begin to replace the seat cushion and back fabric with a striking new brown moquette design. Seating will be complete by April 2016 if the supplier delivers at the agreed rate. The floor replacement and floor covering is part of the life extension work and will be complete by 2020, with the first train due in service from December 2015.
Paintwork/Vinyl:
Once we have identified a preferred supplier, we will begin to replace the fleet’s red, white and blue exterior vinyl and internal vinyl from June 2016. We expect to complete this across the entire fleet by the end of December 2016.

 

[WAB]

Brown. Really.

 

[Nym]

Seating and flooring:
During November 2015 we will begin to replace the seat cushion and back fabric with a striking new brown moquette design. Seating will be complete by April 2016 if the supplier delivers at the agreed rate. The floor replacement and floor covering is part of the life extension work and will be complete by 2020, with the first train due in service from December 2015.
Paintwork/Vinyl:
Once we have identified a preferred supplier, we will begin to replace the fleet’s red, white and blue exterior vinyl and internal vinyl from June 2016. We expect to complete this across the entire fleet by the end of December 2016.

I was talking about the Refurbishment done in the 90s. (Also the actual design of the seat, not the fabric on it.)

The Vinyl and Moquette is just an interior refresh being done on the depot, it's nothing to do with the life extension.

The floor covering is to do with RVAR compliance, and the felt tip fairies appear to be dragging their feet on it, since two or three trains have been through Life Extension already!

 

[hassaanhc]

Seating and flooring:
During November 2015 we will begin to replace the seat cushion and back fabric with a striking new brown moquette design. Seating will be complete by April 2016 if the supplier delivers at the agreed rate. The floor replacement and floor covering is part of the life extension work and will be complete by 2020, with the first train due in service from December 2015.
Paintwork/Vinyl:
Once we have identified a preferred supplier, we will begin to replace the fleet’s red, white and blue exterior vinyl and internal vinyl from June 2016. We expect to complete this across the entire fleet by the end of December 2016.

Why not just use the standard blue design that started with the 92ts and later used in 95ts and 96ts?

I found car 3438 with new flooring way back on 18 July. I took a few (very crap) photos at the time as I couldn't believe it . It is in the pseudo-standard pattern that started off with the 09ts and has now found its way into the 95ts.

 

[Nym]

Why not just use the standard blue design that started with the 92ts and later used in 95ts and 96ts?

I found car 3438 with new flooring way back on 18 July. I took a few (very crap) photos at the time as I couldn't believe it . It is in the pseudo-standard pattern that started off with the 09ts and has now found its way into the 95ts.

Heh, kind of appropriate to have the blue hand rail to go with the 09TS flooring

 

[hassaanhc]

Heh, kind of appropriate to have the blue hand rail to go with the 09TS flooring

That *may* have been the original reason I took the photos .

 

[Mikey C]

Talking about Bakerloo line stock, does anyone know why the seats generally look disgusting? Apologies if this has been asked before but it really is noticeable compared to other tube stock.

It's all the yobs and low life that get on at Marylebone

It's ironic that the stock ordered for political reasons and keep Metro-Cammell going should have such a long life!

 

[Nym]

Well, when the felt tip fairies make their mind up, there may be new RVAR compliant flooring...

 

[MatthewRead]

Seating and flooring:
During November 2015 we will begin to replace the seat cushion and back fabric with a striking new brown moquette design. Seating will be complete by April 2016 if the supplier delivers at the agreed rate. The floor replacement and floor covering is part of the life extension work and will be complete by 2020, with the first train due in service from December 2015.
Paintwork/Vinyl:
Once we have identified a preferred supplier, we will begin to replace the fleet’s red, white and blue exterior vinyl and internal vinyl from June 2016. We expect to complete this across the entire fleet by the end of December 2016.

I haven't seen any trains with new seats or new floors what's going on here?

 

[TheNewNo2]

There are quite a lot of trains, perhaps you just haven't travelled on one that's been changed yet.

 

[MatthewRead]

There are quite a lot of trains, perhaps you just haven't travelled on one that's been changed yet.

If somebody has photos I would like to see them because I spent over an hour at Kenton last month and did not see any!

 

[tranzitjim]

Are these delays of new stock due to a lack of money?

I can imagine that TfL would get replacement stocks for both the 72 and 73 stocks if they had the money to do so.

 

[bluegoblin7]

If somebody has photos I would like to see them because I spent over an hour at Kenton last month and did not see any!

They are running, and they are noticeable, but only three trains (out of a fleet of 36) have been refurbished so far. It is entirely feasible for all three trains to be in the depot simultaneously (or elsewhere on the line. Elephant-Harrow-Elephant is in excess of an hour.).

 

[rebmcr]

Are these delays of new stock due to a lack of money?

I can imagine that TfL would get replacement stocks for both the 72 and 73 stocks if they had the money to do so.

The tendering process got pushed back by Bombardier's massive failure on the SSL resignalling contract. Then once the NTfL design gets ordered, there will be many years of continuous production that will take a lot of time to replace the existing fleets.