1970-1974 WCML Weaver Jct -Glasgow electrification

[jfollows]

Its predecessor, 'Britain's New Railway' was however IMHO an excellent volume, I remember getting it (more than once) from Oxford City Library in the 1970s, and of course I now have my own example.

Likewise, Poynton library had a copy back in the day which I borrowed more than once.

 

[43096]

This was no different to what had long been done on the ECML at night with Deltics, where after the daytime services it was straight onto sleepers, mail, etc back where they had come from. Depending on how they were doing (starting with how many were in Doncaster works) they could do the 0800 Kings Cross to Edinburgh, refuel at Haymarket, back on the 1600 Edinburgh to Kings Cross, and a quick shunt release there, and another refuel in the adjacent yard could get them on the last of the sleepers back to Edinburgh. Changing over to faster and quick turnround HSTs didn't really improve unit miles per day, as they didn't run overnight.

Well, yes, if you compare any one loco with an HST set (although I bet it is closer than you think - the HST would be back out of Edinburgh before 1600). But that Deltic has to be stopped for maintenance at some point, which may well be during the day. So overall, the HSTs ran much longer average diagram lengths i.e. they were more productive.

 

[nlogax]

Is this the mysterious "Mark 2" overhead line design? Or is that on another line?

The Mk2 stuff lived on the Gourock + Wemyss Bay lines.

 

[Merle Haggard]

The "Cobbler" services ran to an E455 timing load, indicated for classes 81-85 in the working timetable, which ordinarily would have limited them to something like 315 tonnes to maintain the schedule, but were noted as being allowed to run with 455 tonnes. All in all this implied that their locomotives were well thrashed, especially if they were classes 82-84. I'm glad - I think - to say that by the time I used them they had 86s; I had my time with the earlier classes in earlier years.

I am pretty sure that when the first Cobbler was introduced the Down working was diagrammed for 82-4, there were definitely separate diagrams. I did keep the first electric diagrams for the Glasgow electrification and I think that, on those, 81/5 and 82-4 were separate. Unfortunately they were 'borrowed' and sold at auction (for a lot)...

The operators were politically forced, apparently begrudgingly, to provide a single fast(er!) service to Northampton and this was one of the means they used to demonstrate how hard it all was - the routing out of Euston was also eccentric.

I am fairly sure the Up working was 81/85; very few failures on the Up, and I almost always got to work on time. Getting home in time to do anything productive was a different story.

The formation included a single BSK at the London end - to allow propelling from the Euston Down Sidings - an FK or 2xCK and the rest TSO to make, I think 11 - but I'm not sure. Commonwealth bogies on many, so the weight was a bit higher - and of course full + standing.

 

[Harpo]

So overall, the HSTs ran much longer average diagram lengths i.e. they were more productive.

HSTs had a tremendous fuel range which helped productivity hugely. I was told not long after their introduction that it was hard to construct a WR diagram that would run out of fuel. By contrast a (pre-twin tank) 47 could only do Paddington - Penzance - Plymouth.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Along with WCML electrification from Weaver which was a total game changer, introduction of HSTs ranks up there too as a major game changer.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Along with WCML electrification from Weaver which was a total game changer, introduction of HSTs ranks up there too as a major game changer.

Without a doubt - the HST's saved and developed the long distance passenger services. More would have been built without the dead hand of the then DfT ........

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Without a doubt - the HST's saved and developed the long distance passenger services. More would have been built without the dead hand of the then DfT ........

Of course, but without going OT too much, if there had been a true cascade programme, electrification of the MML would have meant those HSTs could have been deployed elsewhere.

 

[Harpo]

Of course, but without going OT too much, if there had been a true cascade programme, electrification of the MML would have meant those HSTs could have been deployed elsewhere.

There was a list of routes intended to get HSTs after electrifications. Liverpool to Newcastle was on it and I think Waterloo to Exeter was too?

 

[43096]

There was a list of routes intended to get HSTs after electrifications. Liverpool to Newcastle was on it and I think Waterloo to Exeter was too?

There was also a BR wishlist for the total planned order of 161 HST sets which included more for Cross-Country, Midland Main Line (i.e. new sets, not the cascaded ones it eventually got), TransPennine and Scottish internals.

 

[MadMac]

Was the main line direct from Motherwell to Newton electrified for the Blue Trains in 1960? I did believe only the loop round through Bellshill was done until 1974.

Yes, the main line was part of Glasgow Suburban Electrification II in 1962. The Hamilton Circle wasn’t done until 1974.

 

[matchmaker]

I still have a ticket wallet publicising the opening - "close your eyes and you are almost there" - the Electric Scots - was very much a morale booster for the railway at the time.

One of BR's cunning moves at some time , was running an IC set empty from Polmadie to Ayr, thence to Glasgow Central to form a quality commuter service in one direction only ! (try doing that these days !)

I seem to remember that around that time there was a promotional £5 Glasgow - London return ticket.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

I seem to remember that around that time there was a promotional £5 Glasgow - London return ticket.

Yes, London £5, Birmngham £4, Manchester or Liverpool £3, to promote the newly electrified route and enhanced timetable.

 

[WesternLancer]

Bank of England calculator says £5 in 1974 is £49 today.

 

[Taunton]

Yes, London £5, Birmingham £4, Manchester or Liverpool £3, to promote the newly electrified route and enhanced timetable.

The Liverpool to Edinburgh promotion certainly lasted several years, ending up I think at £5, I had others come to visit me for the day on it. There was a full length (ie no Preston or Carstairs split) service, early morning out, evening return, which gave about 6 hours in Edinburgh. Stock was early Mk2 vacuum braked, with proper SO (not TSO) vehicles with 2+1 seating. In summer it used to get very good loads.

 

[jfollows]

The Liverpool to Edinburgh promotion certainly lasted several years, ending up I think at £5, I had others come to visit me for the day on it. There was a full length (ie no Preston or Carstairs split) service, early morning out, evening return, which gave about 6 hours in Edinburgh. Stock was early Mk2 vacuum braked, with proper SO (not TSO) vehicles with 2+1 seating. In summer it used to get very good loads.

1S46 07:48 Liverpool-Edinburgh AIR +, followed 1S45 07:53 Manchester Victoria-Glasgow AIR + @, in 1974 working timetable. @ - air conditioned, so not the Liverpool as you stated, although it is shown as air braked.
Return were 1M40 18:05 Glasgow-Manchester Victoria and 1M55 17:55 Edinburgh-Liverpool behind it. The working times were that the Edinburgh-Livepool arrived in Preston just before the Glasgow-Manchester left, so the advertised times were different so that it didn't appear as a potential connection.
(+ just means 100mph stock)

I agreed that the AD2Z Mark 2 SO were originally vacuum braked when built in 1966, but some were converted to dual- or air- braked by 1974.

 

[nlogax]

I seem to remember that around that time there was a promotional £5 Glasgow - London return ticket.

Apparently so, a relative bargain even back then I imagine.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/21602076@N05/11259003404

 

[Taunton]

I agreed that the AD2Z Mark 2 SO were originally vacuum braked when built in 1966, but some were converted to dual- or air- braked by 1974.

OK. Though I don't think they, or much else, was converted to dual brake, it was a challenge to fit both sets of gear, plus the complex rigging to the blocks, into the underframe. St Rollox certainly did one, it was a Mk1 dual heat BCK, which when dual braked gave one of everything, class, van, brake and heat, and was stationed at Carstairs from 1974 just in case one of the portioned workings turned up missing a key vehicle for the continuation. Sometimes it was inside the old loco shed, sometimes outside in front of it. Must have been an interesting project for both drawing office and fitters.

I wonder if it was either part of the 1974 plan, or a rush job after some early days events, and how often it was needed.

 

[CW2]

OK. Though I don't think they, or much else, was converted to dual brake, it was a challenge to fit both sets of gear, plus the complex rigging to the blocks, into the underframe. St Rollox certainly did one, it was a Mk1 dual heat BCK, which when dual braked gave one of everything, class, van, brake and heat, and was stationed at Carstairs from 1974 just in case one of the portioned workings turned up missing a key vehicle for the continuation. Sometimes it was inside the old loco shed, sometimes outside in front of it. Must have been an interesting project for both drawing office and fitters.

I wonder if it was either part of the 1974 plan, or a rush job after some early days events, and how often it was needed.

The Carstairs standby BCK was 21269, which I believe is now under WCRC ownership.

 

[WesternLancer]

Apparently so, a relative bargain even back then I imagine.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/21602076@N05/11259003404

View attachment 210406

Great poster image

 

[Cheshire Scot]

1S46 07:48 Liverpool-Edinburgh AIR +, followed 1S45 07:53 Manchester Victoria-Glasgow AIR + @, in 1974 working timetable. @ - air conditioned, so not the Liverpool as you stated, although it is shown as air braked.
Return were 1M40 18:05 Glasgow-Manchester Victoria and 1M55 17:55 Edinburgh-Liverpool behind it. The working times were that the Edinburgh-Livepool arrived in Preston just before the Glasgow-Manchester left, so the advertised times were different so that it didn't appear as a potential connection.
(+ just means 100mph stock)

I agreed that the AD2Z Mark 2 SO were originally vacuum braked when built in 1966, but some were converted to dual- or air- braked by 1974.

The train ex Manchester (1S45) then worked a Glasgow Euston (13.10?) and 1M40 was formed off an arrival from Euston. Not sure how the circuit worked for the Liverpool/Edinburgh/Liverpool other than it was unlikely to sit in Edinburgh all day.

I recall making the conenction northbound at Preston out of the Liverpool to travel to Glasgow.

 

[McRhu]

I took advantage of that £5 ticket to London and certainly did regard it as a bargain. Having said that, my first (proper) wage was something like £17 per week in 1974 so it was a consideration, but well worth it. As regards the pre-existing OLE between Motherwell and Newton on the WCML it was indeed MKI, but with an auxiliary catenary wire. The extra catenary wire was only removed in relatively recent years. Another quirk of the ScR existing OLE being incorporated into the 1894 electrification was the re-use of equipment from the singling of the Balloch line on the Lanark branch. And as nlgolax stated upthread the MKII equipment was used on the Gourock/ Wemyss Bay lines: It looked quite similar to MKI - the most noticeable difference being the registration arms. As far as I know it may still be extant in some more westerly places along the lines although much was replaced by SM1 equipment.

 

[D6130]

The Carstairs standby BCK was 21269, which I believe is now under WCRC ownership.

Yes....an ex-Southern Region vehicle which had already been converted to air-braking in the late 1960s for boat train use. IIRC, it was stated on another thread a year or two back that it used to have a run out to Edinburgh and back one night a week attached to a parcels train....just to keep everything lubricated. I also seem to recall the same thread stating the most of the first class seat cushions were missing, having been expropriated into the Carstairs train crew messroom!

 

[hexagon789]

The train ex Manchester (1S45) then worked a Glasgow Euston (13.10?) and 1M40 was formed off an arrival from Euston. Not sure how the circuit worked for the Liverpool/Edinburgh/Liverpool other than it was unlikely to sit in Edinburgh all day.

I recall making the conenction northbound at Preston out of the Liverpool to travel to Glasgow.

The 0748 Liverpool to Edinburgh is shown as working back on the 1235 Edinburgh to Manchester Victoria with a portion for Liverpool Lime Street.

The inbound was formed as:

BFK, FK, 3 TSO, 3 TSO, RBK, SO, FK, BG

Heading South the BG, FK, SO, RBK & 3 TSO went to Manchester Vic.; 3 TSO, FK, BFK went to Liverpool detached at Preston.

 

[GraphitProjekt]

I took advantage of that £5 ticket to London and certainly did regard it as a bargain. Having said that, my first (proper) wage was something like £17 per week in 1974 so it was a consideration, but well worth it. As regards the pre-existing OLE between Motherwell and Newton on the WCML it was indeed MKI, but with an auxiliary catenary wire. The extra catenary wire was only removed in relatively recent years. Another quirk of the ScR existing OLE being incorporated into the 1894 electrification was the re-use of equipment from the singling of the Balloch line on the Lanark branch. And as nlgolax stated upthread the MKII equipment was used on the Gourock/ Wemyss Bay lines: It looked quite similar to MKI - the most noticeable difference being the registration arms. As far as I know it may still be extant in some more westerly places along the lines although much was replaced by SM1 equipment.

I believe there's another niche overhead line variant in the Glasgow area known as Brown Boveari that's also just used on one line - i think the Neilston Line?

 

[70014IronDuke]

Fact? None of the AC electrics had multiple working kit prior to the Class 87s being built, so it was impossible for the equipment to be removed as it was never fitted! Classes 81-85 never had any sort of multiple working equipment, while the 86/0/3/4s were fitted in a programme through the 1970s and early 1980s to allow them to multi (including with an 87). Ultimately, fitting of TDM in the late 1980s to all of Classes 86 and 87 gave all those two classes multi-working capability.

Thank you, I stand corrected. I never worked on them and this was what I was told at the time. I took that as being true.

 

[Taunton]

Not sure how the circuit worked for the Liverpool/Edinburgh/Liverpool other than it was unlikely to sit in Edinburgh all day.

Actually it did. Still a reasonable diagram. I met/put back on people using it, and used it myself a couple of times - for the aforementioned £5 return.

There was a Sunday diagram as well, I took this one morning from Lime Street, but apart from being a full length scratch Mk1 set it was diverted by an extraordinary route, south via Ditton Junction and then by the freight-only single line from Widnes to St Helens, which looking out of a droplight during a 20mph trundle seemed to have hardly any ballast, straight on the ground. The guard said it had been years since a passenger train had gone this way. Wigan and Preston, then the Class 47 ran round and via Hellifield and the Settle & Carlisle. Took much of the day.

Poor pax across the table had joined at Preston, they had started from Blackburn but due to no Sunday morning trains had been driven to Bolton, then a connection from there via Preston, only to be seeing Blackburn again nearly two hours later!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Yesterday at 14:24 ==

IIRC, it was stated on another thread a year or two back that it used to have a run out to Edinburgh and back one night a week attached to a parcels train....just to keep everything lubricated.

Reminiscent of the old brake carriage on Tiverton Junction to Hemyock, which when the 14xx tank loco ran to and from Exeter shed for coal once or twice a week was taken along to keep the batteries charged!

 

[D6130]

Actually it did. Still a reasonable diagram. I met/put back on people using it, and used it myself a couple of times - for the aforementioned £5 return.

There was a Sunday diagram as well, I took this one morning from Lime Street, but apart from being a full length scratch Mk1 set it was diverted by an extraordinary route, south via Ditton Junction and then by the freight-only single line from Widnes to St Helens, which looking out of a droplight during a 20mph trundle seemed to have hardly any ballast, straight on the ground. The guard said it had been years since a passenger train had gone this way. Wigan and Preston, then the Class 47 ran round and via Hellifield and the Settle & Carlisle. Took much of the day.

Poor pax across the table had joined at Preston, they had started from Blackburn but due to no Sunday morning trains had been driven to Bolton, then a connection from there via Preston, only to be seeing Blackburn again nearly two hours later!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Yesterday at 14:24 ==


Reminiscent of the old brake carriage on Tiverton Junction to Hemyock, which when the 14xx tank loco ran to and from Exeter shed for coal once or twice a week was taken along to keep the batteries charged!

Yes, that would be another - possibly more important - reason for giving SC21269 a weekly overnight trip to Edinburgh and back.

 

[nlogax]

I believe there's another niche overhead line variant in the Glasgow area known as Brown Boveari that's also just used on one line - i think the Neilston Line?

Yep, the Brown Boveri kit lives on that line, see this taken next to the new Balgray station worksite last year. Some has been replaced with solid portal structures during the construction.




(image shows Brown Boveri OLE cantilever assembly on the Neilston line)



(sorry, I know this is getting a bit OT)

 

[D6130]

Yep, the Brown Boveri kit lives on that line, see this taken next to the new Balgray station worksite last year. Some has been replaced with solid portal structures during the construction.


View attachment 210416

(sorry, I know this is getting a bit OT)

I remember that type of catenary on the Neilston line. It looks very much like the standard Deutsche Bahn catenary for non-high speed lines.