1970-1974 WCML Weaver Jct -Glasgow electrification

[70014IronDuke]

Peaks were used too e.g. on the Thames Clyde express. I certainly had D60 Lytham St Annes and others

Yes, of course. But these were MML trains (and the daily Leeds - Glasgow and vv) and were usually Cl 45 diagrams from about 1962. I don't think they were used on the WCML diversions for the electrification work.

Interesting points/anecdotes made in this thread.

One of my Scotland Control colleagues was given (long before my time of course) the task of travelling on the 2 x Class 50 services to assess their performance! This was IIRC when they ran via the WCML however, rather than the G&SW.

Prior to electrification, was the Caledonian main line passed for 100 mph? I suspect yes in order to make multiple working with 50s to be worth the wear and tear.

The G&SW would likely have been limited to 80 mph, I should think. I only went over it twice, and it seemed a bit of a trundle on the overnight sleeper from St Pancras in the 60s behind a Cl 45.

 

[hexagon789]

Prior to electrification, was the Caledonian main line passed for 100 mph? I suspect yes in order to make multiple working with 50s to be worth the wear and tear.

The G&SW would likely have been limited to 80 mph, I should think. I only went over it twice, and it seemed a bit of a trundle on the overnight sleeper from St Pancras in the 60s behind a Cl 45.

It was 75mph on both prior to 1970, in 1970 the Scottish section of the WCML was upgraded to facilitate 90mph running in tandem with the accelerated double class 50 schedules in May that year.

It only went to 100mph with electrification.

The GSW was upgraded to 80 (only over the Gretna to Dumfries section), to facilitate diversions immediately prior to electrification I understand, but I don't have an exact year.

Carstairs to Edinburgh was 70, increased to 80 in part in 1982.

 

[MadMac]

There was a daytime Crewe-Perth working which stopped at Motherwell mid-afternoon. During the daytime WCML closure, it was diverted via the G&SW and terminated at Glasgow Central with a connecting service to Perth (usually a DMU) via the Rutherglen & Coatbridge line. One of our number here @d9009alycidon tells of trying to buy a Central-Perth ticket to be told repeatedly that there wasn’t such a train until the timetable was shown to them!

 

[GRALISTAIR]

In this one you can see the fresh grout of the concrete for the large mast. No small part steel work or cantilevers or wires yet. Again taken in the Barton and Broughton loop area 1972.

 

[Taunton]

Carstairs to Edinburgh was 70, increased to 80 in part in 1982.

I remember doing that just after the 1974 electrification, when there were a couple of dmu shuttles to Carstairs. A full and standing (including me) typical ScR 3-car motley mixed set with an old Gloucester power car at the front, it got to maybe 55mph before the Shotts line branched off, but then speed slowly fell off and it was down to third gear before the summit. Once over the top up to the aforementioned 70, but with periodic wild hunting. There were no hand holds in these cars, and everyone was sat fully against the seat backs. Did I say standing ... ?

 

[hexagon789]

I remember doing that just after the 1974 electrification, when there were a couple of dmu shuttles to Carstairs. A full and standing (including me) typical ScR 3-car motley mixed set with an old Gloucester power car at the front, it got to maybe 55mph before the Shotts line branched off, but then speed slowly fell off and it was down to third gear before the summit. Once over the top up to the aforementioned 70, but with periodic wild hunting. There were no hand holds in these cars, and everyone was sat fully against the seat backs. Did I say standing ... ?

The Gloucesters certainly had a reputation for rough riding at speed, sufficient that regular passengers complained sufficiently frequently about their original use on the Edinburgh to Glasgow via Shotts route that they were replaced on that line by Swindon InterCity units until, in-turn, replaced by other types of low-density cars after a few years.

 

[Taunton]

The Gloucesters certainly had a reputation for rough riding at speed, sufficient that regular passengers complained sufficiently frequently about their original use on the Edinburgh to Glasgow via Shotts route that they were replaced on that line by Swindon InterCity units until, in-turn, replaced by other types of low-density cars after a few years.

It was one of the by-products of the 1974 electrification, which displaced further local diesel units out of Glasgow Central, to Lanark etc, that the Scottish Region did a rejigging of their remaining dmu fleets, and what had previously been straightforward Gloucester and Cravens 2-car sets has the driving trailers withdrawn, and the power cars used to bring other such sets up to three cars, improving their power-to-weight ratio, but in the process ending up with mixed formations and broken gangway connections, a number having three cars from three different builders, and the units were far more regarded as individual loose vehicles to be shunted as required.

 

[matchmaker]

Image from the Glasgow Herald at the time. Location is the Clyde just upriver from Central Station. Google "Electric locomotive on Clyde".



Moderator note - image shows a large model of a Class 87 floating on the Clyde

 

[Transilien]

I wonder if the wired loop through Earlestown was a hangover from links to Liverpool and Manchester. That never seemed to be meaningfully used for electric traction.

It is a shame that this was never implemented as it would allow two major cities to connected with wires without wiring much track.

 

[6Gman]

Through electric working to/from Preston started on 23 July 1973.

A friend and I spent a Saturday at Preston shortly after that - to say it was chaotic would be an understatement!

To reduce engine changing in the station Blackpool-Scotland trains ran via the East Lancs, Lostock Hall, Farington. But it was taking an hour or more such was the congestion.

So we would see trains passing with passengers looking out of the windows - "aye, we're at Preston" - then 90 minutes later incredulous faces would see ... Preston, again.

 

[Helvellyn]

BR got the business case for Weaver / Glasgow electrification past the Minister on the basis that the Settle & Carlisle could be closed - fortunately that never came to pass. Electrification of connecting lines to Manchester, Liverpool, Blackpool and Morecambe had to be dropped though - happily now resolved except for the last.

I wonder if this partly accounts for the generous provision for freight loops in Cumbria. Although electric traction would speed these up over Shap (and Beattock) they were still going to be slower than a 100mph Express.

All inter-linked, but the closure of Penrith-Keswick just ahead of electrification allowed the single line between Penrith and Redhills used by the Keswick line to become a Down Loop, including the newly built single span across the Penrith bypass (better known as the M6!) Immediately adjacent to the two-track WCML span. The opening of the M6 coincided with the A66, which was originally Hull-Penrith becoming Middlesbrough-Workington through redesignations at each end, although the promised upgrades throughout are still not there over 50 years later.

The Carlisle Citadel avoiding lines were also electrified, and Kingmoor Yard. The former closed in the early 1980s after a runaway Freightliner (broken coupling) demolished a bridge and the latter is a shadow of itself.

Amazing to think today of 86/87 hauled Limestone trains between Hardendale Quarry (between Penrith and Oxenholme) and Ravenscraig, plus the steel traffic South from Ravenscraig behind double-headed 86s/87s. That's before the huge variety of loco-hauled passenger services (stock/destinations) compared to today's Avanti Pendolinos and TPE 397s effectively just running Euston-Scotland (approx half via Birmingham) or Liverpool/Manchester-Glasgow/Edinburgh plus the two Sleepers each way.

 

[D6130]

It is a shame that this was never implemented as it would allow two major cities to connected with wires without wiring much track.

It was implemented....but about 30 years later!

 

[Transilien]

It was implemented....but about 30 years later!

Yes, it was a shame that BR couldn’t get more electrification done.

 

[Lloyds siding]

BR got the business case for Weaver / Glasgow electrification past the Minister on the basis that the Settle & Carlisle could be closed - fortunately that never came to pass. Electrification of connecting lines to Manchester, Liverpool, Blackpool and Morecambe had to be dropped though - happily now resolved except for the last. O. S. Nock was pretty grumpy in his column about the proposed timings for the 'Royal Scot' et al - 'barely competitive' as I recall.

It is ironic that Lancaster-Morecambe remains unelectrified, given that Lancaster-Morecambe was the first high voltage route in the UK at 6,600v, courtesy of Midland Railway experimentation. In the 1950s the line was upgraded and used as a test bed for main-line electrification, then Beeching prevailed and the direct route between Lancaster Green Aye and Morecambe was closed, we now have the much longer route to Morecambe via Bare Lane over the old LNWR route.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

between Lancaster Green Aye and Morecambe

Green Ayre?

 

[Merle Haggard]

I'm slightly surprised that Morecambe was chosen rather than Heysham - or was the latter included?

Morecambe was more of a holiday resort for Yorkshire - I think - whereas Heysham - Belfast was still operating at the time of the plans with boat trains from Euston.

I accept that, in the event, the boat didn't last long after the electrification, though.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

In this one you can see the fresh grout of the concrete for the large mast. No small part steel work or cantilevers or wires yet. Again taken in the Barton and Broughton loop area 1972.

Its extraordinary how all the learning from here carried on into ECML and NSE extensions only to completely evaporate

 

[Acathater]

Green Ayre?

Yes - though actually the old electric route was Lancaster Castle (platform 6) > Green Ayre > Morecambe / Heysham.
Heysham could be accessed via reversal at Promenade station, or by a direct curve bypassing Promenade

 

[McRhu]

I remember the electrification very well. I would've been approx 17 1/2 when electric traction started in earnest. The anticipation was immense. I saw my first MKIIIa OLE (all silvery and copper and shiny) on a trip to south to Carlisle in 1973 and was captivated by this innovative technology with its reduced encumbrance, dynamically angled cantilevers and light 7-shed insulators. Electric locos started to appear at Glasgow Shields for training purposes where only emu's had trod before. The MacLellan Galleries had an exhibition of all things electrification and the wooden class 87 mockup appeared on the Clyde beside Central Bridge. Photo of the first Electric Scot leaving Glasgow Central herewith.

 

[Falcon1200]

the direct route between Lancaster Green Aye and Morecambe was closed,

Not quite such a direct route from Lancaster Castle however, needing a reversal at Green Ayre!

 

[70014IronDuke]

It was 75mph on both prior to 1970, in 1970 the Scottish section of the WCML was upgraded to facilitate 90mph running in tandem with the accelerated double class 50 schedules in May that year.

It only went to 100mph with electrification.

The GSW was upgraded to 80 (only over the Gretna to Dumfries section), to facilitate diversions immediately prior to electrification I understand, but I don't have an exact year.

Carstairs to Edinburgh was 70, increased to 80 in part in 1982.

Thank you for the clarifications.
It seems pretty amazing that the Caledonian main line was still 75 mph as late as 1970. I can't say I was very attentive when I went over it in the 60s and again in 74, but I can't remember it being awfully curved. In fact, IIRC, Lockerbie to the border was pretty straight?

The G&SW only had two expresses plus sleeper each way per day before the diversions were introduced, so I can imagine upgrading that line wasn't justified on cost grounds, but it seems the ScR was rather happy to go along with low top line speeds for a very long time.

 

[Merle Haggard]

I'm very hazy on the this but I thought that the Scottish Region had a Regional speed limit of around 75 mph until about 1970 - explains the speeds on the Anglo-Scottiish routes

 

[hexagon789]

Thank you for the clarifications.
It seems pretty amazing that the Caledonian main line was still 75 mph as late as 1970. I can't say I was very attentive when I went over it in the 60s and again in 74, but I can't remember it being awfully curved. In fact, IIRC, Lockerbie to the border was pretty straight?

The G&SW only had two expresses plus sleeper each way per day before the diversions were introduced, so I can imagine upgrading that line wasn't justified on cost grounds, but it seems the ScR was rather happy to go along with low top line speeds for a very long time.

For example - the Edinburgh & Glasgow was upgraded to 100mph Bishopbriggs to Falkirk in 1971, 60 through the tunnel remained until 1982, but Polmont to Haymarket remained 75 due to mechanical signalling with exception for "Edinburgh-Glasgow High-Speed Trains" - I.e. the 27 push-pull sets, which were permitted 90 due to their disc brakes.

Two short sections of 90mph were introduced between Gleneagles and Perth, split by a 75 over a crossing in 1974 for the Clansman.

Perth to Dundee was upgraded to 90 in 1982, this in tandem with reducing the timing load one carriage enabled the standard Glasgow to Aberdeen timing by to be reduced by 7 mins to 2h53.

The Scottish section of the ECML went from 80 to 100 in 1978, then to 125 in 1982. The latter enabled 2 mins reduction Edinburgh to Newcastle which got the Flying Scotsman down to 4h35.

The West Highland was just 40, though 50 on the Oban line, until the late-70s when it became 50 as well.

In general, yes, the linespeeds on the ScR were not high in general until a gradual speeding up of the prime main and certain secondary lines through the 1980s.

I'm very hazy on the this but I thought that the Scottish Region had a Regional speed limit of around 75 mph until about 1970 - explains the speeds on the Anglo-Scottiish routes

Yes, ScR had a 75mph blanket ceiling.

Most mainlines retained that going into the 80s.

 

[D6130]

Thank you for the clarifications.
It seems pretty amazing that the Caledonian main line was still 75 mph as late as 1970. I can't say I was very attentive when I went over it in the 60s and again in 74, but I can't remember it being awfully curved. In fact, IIRC, Lockerbie to the border was pretty straight?

The West Coast Main Line between Lockerbie and the border is almost entirely a series of wide sweeping curves, with only a few short straight sections. The Scottish Region persisted with a 75 mph speed restriction - for the entire region, including the East and West Coast Main Lines - until 1970 probably because there were not many trains that could (officially) exceed that speed and also for track maintenance economy reasons....given that most lines were still laid with jointed track prior to 1970.

The Perth-Dundee line - which was very much a secondary line prior to the closure of the Strathmore route in 1967 - was largely limited to 55 mph for many years, even though it's largely straight and level. Nowadays, with continuously-welded rail and main line status, it's up to 100 mph.

 

[hexagon789]

The Perth-Dundee line - which was very much a secondary line prior to the closure of the Strathmore route in 1967 - was largely limited to 55 mph for many years, even though it's largely straight and level. Nowadays, with continuously-welded rail and main line status, it's up to 100 mph.

Actually it's still only 90 max, though a longer stretch of it than existed in 1982.

 

[D6130]

Actually it's still only 90 max, though a longer stretch of it than existed in 1982.

Sorry....yes, you're right. I was confusing it with Dundee-Arbroath!

 

[Cheshire Scot]

The West Highland was just 40, though 50 on the Oban line, until the late-70s when it became 50 as well.

The West Highland itself became 50 only from just south of Bridge of Orchy (MP46) to Fort William, and only for single headed trains, it remained 40 for double headed trains, and still 40 on the southern section and from FW to MP13 (before Glenfinnan Viaduct), limits which remain in force today albeit with lots of Sprinter differentials in place.
30 mph from MP13 to Mallaig

 

[hexagon789]

Sorry....yes, you're right. I was confusing it with Dundee-Arbroath!

Easily done

Dundee-Abroath has always been one of the fast sections.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Sunday at 10:29 ==

The West Highland itself became 50 only from just south of Bridge of Orchy (MP46) to Fort William, and only for single headed trains, it remained 40 for double headed trains, and still 40 on the southern section and from FW to MP13 (before Glenfinnan Viaduct), limits which remain in force today albeit with lots of Sprinter differentials in place.
30 mph from MP13 to Mallaig

True, I was simplifying by only giving maximum overall linespeeds.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Easily done

Dundee-Abroath has always been one of the fast sections.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Sunday at 10:29 ==


True, I was simplifying by only giving maximum overall linespeeds.

Fine, but 50 mph only applies for less than half of the route!

 

[hexagon789]

Fine, but 50 mph only applies for less than half of the route!

Granted, but equally the maximum linespeeds often applied to less than half of many routes, so...