195s truly awful, not a step forward

[61653 HTAFC]

The suspension you keep telling us is dangerous and incomplete is no worse than the 185 you compare them to. Have you ever been across Heaton Lodge Junction on a 185 at line speed, with the incredible amount of lurching which I’ve seen throw standees completely off balance and spill drinks across tables. The 185’s are not perfect riders as is often made out. You make it sound like the 195’s lurch and hunt all over the place even on straight plain line. They are a bit lively on junctions like many other units.

I agree with the crux of your argument that @AM9 is making a mountain out of a molehill here, but I think the Heaton Lodge "lurch" is down to the track rather than the trains. The 158s used to do it, as do the 802s and Mk5a sets. I've always found that bump at the Huddersfield end of Mirfield platform 2 is worse anyway, as the speed is higher. When you're on a fast service with lots of standing passengers, you can tell who the regulars are as they'll brace themselves or grab onto something just in time!

Back on topic, my main issue with the 195s is that performance-wise they seem more suited to stopping services, but have an interior (standbacks excepted) that would be more suited to regional express work. Even that is more of an issue on the 331s, particularly in Yorkshire where a more high-density layout would be more appropriate for the routes served. I wouldn't go as far as 3+2 seating, but the tables aren't really necessary. A greater proportion of airline seating would have been better.

 

[AM9]

I agree with the crux of your argument that @AM9 is making a mountain out of a molehill here, but I think the Heaton Lodge "lurch" is down to the track rather than the trains. The 158s used to do it, as do the 802s and Mk5a sets. I've always found that bump at the Huddersfield end of Mirfield platform 2 is worse anyway, as the speed is higher. When you're on a fast service with lots of standing passengers, you can tell who the regulars are as they'll brace themselves or grab onto something just in time!

Back on topic, my main issue with the 195s is that performance-wise they seem more suited to stopping services, but have an interior (standbacks excepted) that would be more suited to regional express work. Even that is more of an issue on the 331s, particularly in Yorkshire where a more high-density layout would be more appropriate for the routes served. I wouldn't go as far as 3+2 seating, but the tables aren't really necessary. A greater proportion of airline seating would have been better.

It seems that @Neptune still hasn't read my words on the symptoms of a suspension shortfalls experienced by me. I travelled on a 331 from Doncaster to Leeds and back. The track on that route can hardly be called substandard, however the ride was twitchy with continuous vertical oscillation, probably about 4-6Hz - not wild lurches, there's plenty of those in the south-east to recognise. According to my fellow passengers, who are well used to that line in both local trains and ECML services, they had never noticed such a disturbance before, so this was a surprise on a very new train. The same characteristic was there on the return run. More recently, I went with one other on a 195 from Liverpool South Parkway to Manchester Piccadilly. That same oscillation was present, on what I have recognised is reasonable track. Later that day it was a run from Piccadilly to Preston on a 397, - yes the same jittery ride was there, no lurches, just a continuous vertical oscillation.
No train is above criticism, but those three completely different journeys confirmed to me that there is an issue. By all means be grateful that the Pacers have gone but why pretend that there isn't an issue with the new trains that is common with three different classes that all use the same bogie design.
You don't have to be a passenger from the north to judge a new train's quality.

 

[yoyothehobo]

I doubt they are oscilating at 4-6Hz. Oscilating at 1-2 Hz for a few minutes can cause brain damage, 6-7 is what is being experienced by current F1 cars and the 195s certainly dont do that.

I am not doubting the suspension isnt the best on 195s, they are cheap and no one is saying they are magnificent. They are of an acceptable quality for the job they do.

I can count the number of times people have complained about the ride on the train (actually whilst riding the train, and i hve probably been on 195s in excess of 100 times this year) on less than 1 finger.

People have complained much more about the hard seats on Azumas.

Suspension ride quality is so far down a list of what people care about. It may not be great for a train fan, its just most people just dont care.

 

[Neptune]

It seems that @Neptune still hasn't read my words on the symptoms of a suspension shortfalls experienced by me. I travelled on a 331 from Doncaster to Leeds and back. The track on that route can hardly be called substandard, however the ride was twitchy with continuous vertical oscillation, probably about 4-6Hz - not wild lurches, there's plenty of those in the south-east to recognise. According to my fellow passengers, who are well used to that line in both local trains and ECML services, they had never noticed such a disturbance before, so this was a surprise on a very new train. The same characteristic was there on the return run. More recently, I went with one other on a 195 from Liverpool South Parkway to Manchester Piccadilly. That same oscillation was present, on what I have recognised is reasonable track. Later that day it was a run from Piccadilly to Preston on a 397, - yes the same jittery ride was there, no lurches, just a continuous vertical oscillation.
No train is above criticism, but those three completely different journeys confirmed to me that there is an issue. By all means be grateful that the Pacers have gone but why pretend that there isn't an issue with the new trains that is common with three different classes that all use the same bogie design.
You don't have to be a passenger from the north to judge a new train's quality.

I have read them and agree that the suspension can a little lively but as the majority of others have pointed out, and these are regular users/workers of the train, it is really not a problem. You seem to be making out that these trains are bouncing around to the extent that it is dangerous but then ignore the fact that if this were the case then they wouldn’t be in traffic. It’s a slightly lively ride in places that isn’t a problem for the 99% of the population that aren’t rail enthusiasts.

I don’t doubt you have experienced what you say you and the fellow passengers you interviewed on the 331 have and it sounds horrendous compared to what the rest of us have experienced on them (tens of thousands of miles in my case) so did you report it to Northern or TPE? Because if you think it’s so serious that they have dangerous unfinished suspension and that you believe the engineers who maintain them are putting peoples lives at risk by allowing them to enter service each day then you should go there rather than complain on a forum and feed back their response to us.

 

[AM9]

I have read them and agree that the suspension can a little lively but as the majority of others have pointed out, and these are regular users/workers of the train, it is really not a problem. You seem to be making out that these trains are bouncing around to the extent that it is dangerous but then ignore the fact that if this were the case then they wouldn’t be in traffic. It’s a slightly lively ride in places that isn’t a problem for the 99% of the population that aren’t rail enthusiasts.

I don’t doubt you have experienced what you say you and the fellow passengers you interviewed on the 331 have and it sounds horrendous compared to what the rest of us have experienced on them (tens of thousands of miles in my case) so did you report it to Northern or TPE? Because if you think it’s so serious that they have dangerous unfinished suspension and that you believe the engineers who maintain them are putting peoples lives at risk by allowing them to enter service each day then you should go there rather than complain on a forum and feed back their response to us.

Ditto

I did not say that the suspension was dangerous, I was merely pointing out that it's performance as experienced by me and others posting here relect on what is an unsatisfactory design, which doesn't seem to have been addressed to date.
The safety issue is the yaw damper mounting breakages. That is why there was a fairly quick action to address it, - but in the fullness of time, it put's CAF's design practices on record as wanting.
A similar issue existed with the Hitachi AT300, where swift action was taken. That sort of response by an operator, with it's attendant disruption is not taken lightly, and certainly doesn't indicate a trivial non-safety issue that can be ignored.
And where did I say that I had 'interviewed' fellow passengers? They were travelling with me and in the case of the 331, I was not the first one to comment on the ride. We were all experiencing our first Civity journey. One of them has posted on this very thread.

 

[Wolfie]

Remember that the DfT called replacing pacers bad value for money, it took Patrick McLoughlin forcing new trains into the franchise (and new trains being needed to replace all the pacers) for Northern to get anything. Its good that Northern got any new trains, even if they have some cost cutting.

Be thankful that there aren't more 144e units.

You need to understand how government finances work. The Permanent Secretary (the most senior civil servant) in any department is the principal accounting officer and has to personally sign off (and justify to Parliament) the departmental accounts. To do so they have to assure themselves that public money is being properly spent.

While l didn't see the figures around Pacer replacement l assume that they didn't stack up by the normal rules/conventions. In such circumstances a Secretary of State can direct the civil service to proceed anyway by issuing a direction (and thereby taking personal responsibility for the expenditure). For example the Home Secretary recently did exactly that over the Rwanda policy.

I absolutely agree your point that, particularly in such circumstances, the cheapest compliant bid is always likely to be chosen.

 

[Energy]

You need to understand how government finances work. The Permanent Secretary (the most senior civil servant) in any department is the principal accounting officer and has to personally sign off (and justify to Parliament) the departmental accounts. To do so they have to assure themselves that public money is being properly spent.

While l didn't see the figures around Pacer replacement l assume that they didn't stack up by the normal rules/conventions. In such circumstances a Secretary of State can direct the civil service to proceed anyway by issuing a direction (and thereby taking personal responsibility for the expenditure).

Interesting, I wonder if the numbers are better now for new trains since Northern seem to be more interested in them now. Presumably the dirt cheap lease for pacers made it difficult to justify any replacement on financials alone.

 

[AM9]

Interesting, I wonder if the numbers are better now for new trains since Northern seem to be more interested in them now. Presumably the dirt cheap lease for pacers made it difficult to justify any replacement on financials alone.

I think there are those eager to see if there are any opportunities to lever the 'levelling up' promises that this government made to red wall areas.

 

[Bikeman78]

While l didn't see the figures around Pacer replacement l assume that they didn't stack up by the normal rules/conventions. In such circumstances a Secretary of State can direct the civil service to proceed anyway by issuing a direction (and thereby taking personal responsibility for the expenditure).

If the Pacers hadn't gone in 2020/2021, when would they have gone? Nothing lasts forever. There didn't seem to be enough class 195s so I added up the total lengths of the Pacer and 195 fleets. If my maths is correct then the totals are 3210m and 3556m respectively. So a slight capacity increase.

 

[Herefordian]

There we go again, judging a new 21st century train against a 40 year old train, that's a pretty low target to aim for. They should be judged against their contemporaries, Desiro UK EMUs, Electrostars and Turbostars, Desiro Citys and Aventras.
Would you go and buy a new car with the only requirement that it was better than one that was built 40 years ago? Or a new mobile phone being better than one sold in 2002?

Concerning Northern, 195s should be compared to what they replaced. The 142 and 144.

Civity contemporaries are the Aventra and Desiro City. The rest are no longer produced. That's like comparing the current Golf to a previous Focus.

No. But, I'd expect a new car or new phone to be better than the last one.

 

[AM9]

Concerning Northern, 195s should be compared to what they replaced. The 142 and 144.

Civity contemporaries are the Aventra and Desiro City. The rest are no longer produced. That's like comparing the current Golf to a previous Focus.

No. But, I'd expect a new car or new phone to be better than the last one.

As far as the purchaser is concerned, when selscting the stock to buy, it should be based on value for money and cost of ownership, not cheapest at all costs. The passenger sayin g thjat a 2016 designed item is better than a 1980 one is a poor comparison of the two. The same could have been said about the Pacers and Sprinters when they replaced early BR DMUs of LMS/MKI LHCS, when the new trains were shiny and new.* The 195s are nice and new now, but in some respects they are already showing some weaknesses and time will tell whether the 'buy cheap' policy that gave passengers them was the best value throughout what could be a 35year life. Don't be dazzled with them being better than their 40 year old predecessors, the shine might fade quicker than you think.
* of course there will be a chorus of spotters here that think even a LHGS (Loco Hauled Goods Stock) train is better than any multiple unit!

 

[LOL The Irony]

That's like comparing the current Golf to a previous Focus.

TBF, the current Golf could actually get outmatched by a previous Focus, so a good analogy for the Civitys.

 

[tomuk]

TBF, the current Golf could actually get outmatched by a previous Focus, so a good analogy for the Civitys.

Yes most brands have reached their zenith a number of years ago and are now just continually value engineered down. But the public seem happy as long as the dash is replaced with a massive Ipad.

 

[Bantamzen]

I honestly don't know what the fuss about the 195s (or the 331s for that matter) is about. Are they the best trains in the world? No. Do they do the job required of them? Yes.

Having recently travelled up standing from Leeds to York standing on a full to rammed 195 (due to a cancelled TPE) I can honestly say as a commuter that they pass the test. Not once did I feel that I might get chucked around the carriage even at speeds, which for a commuter is a blessing. And I'll happily ride one when I travel from Bradford down to Warrington when I go to see family, especially as their nimbleness means that they can often pick up time when they've been running late which is great. Compared to the bone-shaking experience of the Pacers (and don't even get me started on the 141s) they are by a country mile a massive step up.

 

[ic31420]

I honestly don't know what the fuss about the 195s (or the 331s for that matter) is about. Are they the best trains in the world? No. Do they do the job required of them? Yes.

Having recently travelled up standing from Leeds to York standing on a full to rammed 195 (due to a cancelled TPE) I can honestly say as a commuter that they pass the test. Not once did I feel that I might get chucked around the carriage even at speeds, which for a commuter is a blessing. And I'll happily ride one when I travel from Bradford down to Warrington when I go to see family, especially as their nimbleness means that they can often pick up time when they've been running late which is great. Compared to the bone-shaking experience of the Pacers (and don't even get me started on the 141s) they are by a country mile a massive step up.

Agree with this.

I use the 331s a lot more than the 195s but from a passenger perspective they're perfectly good units for the services Northern Run.

I don't think the ride is absurdly bad yes the clunking noise is annoying if you listen for it but 99% of people won't hear it. It's certainly no worse than the clunking of worn antiroll bars and suspension components that it seems half the cars on the road have.

I think if and when the time comes that the 323s are deployed on the Bolton line vice the 331s then we'll see how much the normals like the 331s when they moan about the 323s which themselves are jolly descent units.

For me the biggest issue with the 331/195s is the slow door operations.

 

[mcnw35282]

For 3 year old trains, they really do sound like they're gonna split in half...but that being said they're a godsend during the current heat wave with their AC compared to the crush-loaded 319 and 323s currently running on the chat moss route due to Northern's half-arsed timetable!

 

[MCSHF007]

They're not perfect, but I do genuinely like them. Usual journeys Leeds to/from Bradford Interchange or Leeds to/from Sheffield. The latter really ought to be 3 car but Platform 17 etc etc

 

[yorksrob]

The more I use them, the more I like them.

They really are decent little trains. Nice interior, comfy-ish seats. Pleasant lay-out. The jury's out on the single bog though.

Most problems from a passenger point of view could be alleviated by doubling up.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The more I use them, the more I like them.

They really are decent little trains. Nice interior, comfy-ish seats. Pleasant lay-out. The jury's out on the single bog though.

Most problems from a passenger point of view could be alleviated by doubling up.

They seem to be growing on me too, though I think they need to spend 10 minutes with a spanner making the window alignment a bit less awful.

 

[yorksrob]

They seem to be growing on me too, though I think they need to spend 10 minutes with a spanner making the window alignment a bit less awful.

Yes, that moreso for the TPE mk5's.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, that moreso for the TPE mk5's.

The Mk5 layout is lazy to the point of contemptuous to passengers. 1st is nice though!

 

[yorksrob]

The Mk5 layout is lazy to the point of contemptuous to passengers. 1st is nice though!

First on TPE - that's a rare treat

 

[Hybridversa104]

I like 195s me very stylish trains kind of remind me of part of a mix of a 170 with a modern design

 

[Andyh82]

The more I use them, the more I like them.

They really are decent little trains. Nice interior, comfy-ish seats. Pleasant lay-out. The jury's out on the single bog though.

Most problems from a passenger point of view could be alleviated by doubling up.

If only they could buy some more centre carriages

Personally I think they should buy 50 extra carriages enough to make the 2 cars into 4 cars so none need to be doubled up, the conductor can get all the way down the train, and there is no risk of a 2 car turning up on its own. All would have a slightly higher density more airline less table layout and all come with a non disability toilet. They’d be ideal then and set Northern up for the future. Any service that can only take 2 cars such as the Leeds Platform 17ers would be converted to a 158

 

[yorksrob]

If only they could buy some more centre carriages

Personally I think they should buy 50 extra carriages enough to make the 2 cars into 4 cars so none need to be doubled up, the conductor can get all the way down the train, and there is no risk of a 2 car turning up on its own. All would have a slightly higher density more airline less table layout and all come with a non disability toilet. They’d be ideal then and set Northern up for the future. Any service that can only take 2 cars would be converted to a 158

Yes, this, or even just enough to make them all 3 carriage (and preferably 2 bog).

The little tip-down seats are great for my commute, yet don't obstruct the doorways.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Aug 2022 ==

Am sat on a late evening one, and yes the bog's not working.

This really is the achillees heel of otherwise decent units that needs to be addressed.

Bogs routinely locking themselves out of use on evening services is not acceptable.

 

[TheHSRailFan]

I finally tried the 195s a week ago when going up north.

While I will give credit to northern for the many upgrades to the services they have brought. I found quite a few issues with the train that don't help at all. Particularly:

-The Interior design is not that favourable when you look around.
-I found the train just vibrates badly especially going over the junction.
-As an autistic person I find there's a limit to where I can't take it... and being over the motor is something I was not fond of. Like there was no sound reduction or anything like that.

It was an ok ride, nothing horrific, But if the money randomly showed up... I think they would need to make some big modifications asap.

 

[driverd]

They seem to be growing on me too, though I think they need to spend 10 minutes with a spanner making the window alignment a bit less awful.

I had a thorough look at one the other day and the issue with the seating is the number of windows - specifically, if they went for 4 table bays aligned to the windows, legroom would be reduced (currently we have 3 bays plus one airline row - centre section). If they dropped that to 2 bays plus 3 airline, maybe something could be sorted but for a perfect window alignment you'd still have to drop the legroom, possibly to a point that's not really tolerable.

It's always a difficult compromise - I suspect the abundance of tables came from feedback and broadly I suppose it works. If I'm on a busy train and have to sit with others, I do prefer something solid to demark my space (ie: armrests and a table), over an open plan bay (ala a 150/321), but preferably I'd have got myself an airline seat. I'm quite surprised at the provision of tables on the units to be fair - it's more expensive than just throwing in a load of airline seats so suggests that some consideration was given at the design stage - even if the trade off was a poor window alignment.

 

[yorksrob]

The large number of tables is a good feature in many ways.

I think that if I were adding a centre carriage, I would probably reverse the proportion of table to airline seats, to give a bit more of a balance.

 

[Killingworth]

I had a thorough look at one the other day and the issue with the seating is the number of windows - specifically, if they went for 4 table bays aligned to the windows, legroom would be reduced (currently we have 3 bays plus one airline row - centre section). If they dropped that to 2 bays plus 3 airline, maybe something could be sorted but for a perfect window alignment you'd still have to drop the legroom, possibly to a point that's not really tolerable.

It's always a difficult compromise - I suspect the abundance of tables came from feedback and broadly I suppose it works. If I'm on a busy train and have to sit with others, I do prefer something solid to demark my space (ie: armrests and a table), over an open plan bay (ala a 150/321), but preferably I'd have got myself an airline seat. I'm quite surprised at the provision of tables on the units to be fair - it's more expensive than just throwing in a load of airline seats so suggests that some consideration was given at the design stage - even if the trade off was a poor window alignment.

I use these units every week and on a scenic route. The window issue is not a concern for the vast majority of users. If traveling alone their eyes are mostly focussed on a book, electronic device - or shut! Groups tend to be engrossed in conversation, at weekends often well fuelled with cans loaded on the tables.

The windows help for confining which station is which but most users seem to be moving towards the doors well before arrival, informed by announcements and displays.

When lightly loaded users will avoid seats with a poor view but they also tend to avoid seats facing backwards. The tip up inward facing seats are as well used as any.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I had a thorough look at one the other day and the issue with the seating is the number of windows - specifically, if they went for 4 table bays aligned to the windows, legroom would be reduced (currently we have 3 bays plus one airline row - centre section). If they dropped that to 2 bays plus 3 airline, maybe something could be sorted but for a perfect window alignment you'd still have to drop the legroom, possibly to a point that's not really tolerable.

The issue is the standbacks (the windows are the right size for a bay) and the fix would be to remove the tip up seats (they are a bad thing in any setting as they remove the utility of the space they are in as people choose to use them even when other seats are available*) and alter the size of the standbacks to be larger at one side and smaller at the other, thus allowing the seats to be nudged along. They are only slightly off.

There are a few alternative possibilities, e.g. more airline seats in the central section which gives more flexibility, or not having centre section standbacks at all (which would allow for 4 bays aligned to the windows) and instead removing the table bays in both end sections and replacing with Tube style side facing seating to provide that standing space without knackering the layout.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Aug 2022 ==

The large number of tables is a good feature in many ways.

I think that if I were adding a centre carriage, I would probably reverse the proportion of table to airline seats, to give a bit more of a balance.

Does anyone have a proper technical diagram of the layout with measurements etc? I am sure I recall seeing one when new. Then we could see what the feasibility of various options would be.