185s question

[notadriver]

If the transmission settings on the CAF units are the same as they are on buses, then ECO will use the gears to keep the engine RPM as low as possible, which means that each shift up may occur before the engine has reached the RPM at which it develops its peak torque (read: sacrifices acceleration to enhance fuel economy and engine longevity).

The other transmission mode, sometimes called Normal, Balanced, Automatic, or Power, changes the shift positions depending on the power demand the driver asks for. If the driver is only using low power then the gearbox will likely shift up at a similar RPM as it does in ECO mode because a high acceleration is not required. If the driver is using a lot or full power (i.e. asking for maximum acceleration) then the gearbox will attempt to keep the engine RPM within the engines' peak torque range, resulting in a higher overall RPM. On buses and coaches, the engine's peak torque range is shown by the green band on the tachometer

There is a performance requirement for trains to keep to time whereas buses are normally always set to max eco.

 

[Allwinter_Kit]

Transpennine don't need First Class for their (standard) market served by the 185s. Most people on them are hopping from one city to the next - Liverpool / Manchester / Leeds / York / Hull (or Sheffield). Journeys of basically 30 minutes. Take out first class and put in more seats. Nearly all of their passengers will be grateful.

The 185s shouldn't be doing the longer runs to Edinburgh / Glasgow Where there is an argument for First Class (and also an argument that they aren't really Transpennine services but that's for another thread).

 

[Spartacus]

Transpennine don't need First Class for their (standard) market served by the 185s. Most people on them are hopping from one city to the next - Liverpool / Manchester / Leeds / York / Hull (or Sheffield). Journeys of basically 30 minutes. Take out first class and put in more seats. Nearly all of their passengers will be grateful.

The 185s shouldn't be doing the longer runs to Edinburgh / Glasgow Where there is an argument for First Class (and also an argument that they aren't really Transpennine services but that's for another thread).

You should see how busy first class gets at time, especially at weekends these days. It's easily forgotten but first is often a valuable source of revenue, far above what it costs to provide. To get the same revenue standard class tickets would have to go up in price, even without factoring in the cost of conversion. I don't think most passengers would be grateful for that.

185s are a rarity these days, a train with comfortable seats and decent leg room. And all some people want to do it turn them into yet another cattle class people mover so many complain about on a day to day basis! As someone who travels on them regularly, I hope they stay as they are!

 

[DarloRich]

I am but a passenger so don't have the amount of exposure that a member of staff would but the aircon and engines on 185s have always seemed as reliable as any other train?

As a passenger they always seem to be solid, decent trains to me. Decent seats, leg room, big windows, minimal first class - what's not to like?

Though I will happily concede the toilets seems to regularly go out of order!

Is that symptom of being worked hard though? The toilets are often full rather than broken in my experience

 

[hacman]

As a passenger they always seem to be solid, decent trains to me. Decent seats, leg room, big windows, minimal first class - what's not to like?

Is that symptom of being worked hard though? The toilets are often full rather than broken in my experience

I used to travel on these often and that was always my assessment too - they're generally pretty nice trains, with their only real limiting factor being that they should have been gangwayed and 4 or 5 cars.

Their acceleration gives many electrics a run for their money, the ride is fairly smooth, and I'd always rather the AC was a tad too cool than end up in a sweatbox.

 

[DarloRich]

I used to travel on these often and that was always my assessment too - they're generally pretty nice trains, with their only real limiting factor being that they should have been gangwayed and 4 or 5 cars.

Their acceleration gives many electrics a run for their money, the ride is fairly smooth, and I'd always rather the AC was a tad too cool than end up in a sweatbox.

I endorse this statement in full!

 

[Spartacus]

Is that symptom of being worked hard though? The toilets are often full rather than broken in my experience

More often than not (although I had a morning set swap the other day due to no working toilets, probably not due to being full), and if you're lucky going over a junction or two at speed's often enough to settle the sh!t a but and unlock the loos & flush function, at least temporarily

 

[DarloRich]

if you're lucky going over a junction or two at speed's often enough to settle the sh!t a but and unlock the loos & flush function, at least temporarily

or slosh it on the floor - at least on one unit i travelled on ( also seen on the LNWR 350's)

pleasant conversational topic!

 

[D Mylchreest]

I'm not sure but it might be partially down to the transmission. The Voyagers are diesel electric with the engines driving an alternator that generates electricity then used by electric traction motors (a bit like a Hybrid Car). The 185s use a more conventional transmission (more akin to a normal car).

According to Wiki they have hydraulic transmission but some contributors have mentioned mechanical. Which is it please?

 

[Surreyman]

Idle speculation: - If the 185s were displaced from TPE, is there any technical reason why they could not be re-formed into 2 & 4 car units?

 

[D365]

Idle speculation: - If the 185s were displaced from TPE, is there any technical reason why they could not be re-formed into 2 & 4 car units?

A bit too soon for talk of re-leasing the Class 185s?

 

[craigybagel]

If the transmission settings on the CAF units are the same as they are on buses, then ECO will use the gears to keep the engine RPM as low as possible, which means that each shift up may occur before the engine has reached the RPM at which it develops its peak torque (read: sacrifices acceleration to enhance fuel economy and engine longevity).

The other transmission mode, sometimes called Normal, Balanced, Automatic, or Power, changes the shift positions depending on the power demand the driver asks for. If the driver is only using low power then the gearbox will likely shift up at a similar RPM as it does in ECO mode because a high acceleration is not required. If the driver is using a lot or full power (i.e. asking for maximum acceleration) then the gearbox will attempt to keep the engine RPM within the engines' peak torque range, resulting in a higher overall RPM. On buses and coaches, the engine's peak torque range is shown by the green band on the tachometer.

We're getting very off topic here, and the mods may wish to set up a different thread for discussing CAF transmissions, but it doesn't seem to work that way on trains fitted with that transmission. In superpower mode it will let the revs run very high before changing gear, even when the driver has only selected a low amount of power.

Transpennine don't need First Class for their (standard) market served by the 185s. Most people on them are hopping from one city to the next - Liverpool / Manchester / Leeds / York / Hull (or Sheffield). Journeys of basically 30 minutes. Take out first class and put in more seats. Nearly all of their passengers will be grateful.

The 185s shouldn't be doing the longer runs to Edinburgh / Glasgow Where there is an argument for First Class (and also an argument that they aren't really Transpennine services but that's for another thread).

The 185s definitely can't get to Glasgow any more anyway. I can't remember if Newcastle drivers have lost competency on them or not, but if they have they can't get to Edinburgh either.

Idle speculation: - If the 185s were displaced from TPE, is there any technical reason why they could not be re-formed into 2 & 4 car units?

A 2 car 185 would give a very low passenger capacity for such an expensive unit to run. I think when it was discussed before people who know the units better said there were certain features of the centre car that couldn't be done without, possibly a compressor? That's usually the problematic bit.

 

[ainsworth74]

A 2 car 185 would give a very low passenger capacity for such an expensive unit to run. I think when it was discussed before people who know the units better said there were certain features of the centre car that couldn't be done without, possibly a compressor? That's usually the problematic bit.

You could of course reseat them by taking out first class and densifying standard class as well! But yes your recollection is the same as mine, I feel like when it's cropped up in the past the real stumbling block was that there's something in the centre car that is needed for a 185 set to work. I doubt it would be an insurmountable challenge but it would be an extra expense/complication.

 

[Leyland Bus]

It isn’t. The fuel saving mode is when one car shuts an engine down. As stated by @driverd it is the engines hunting for some reason.

There was one doing that at Oxford Rd the other morning, sounded extremely ill, made me wonder if it'd see Saltburn...

 

[ainsworth74]

There was one doing that at Oxford Rd the other morning, sounded extremely ill, made me wonder if it'd see Saltburn...

It's quite typical to hear the engine hunting. No idea why but they've always seemed to do it and it never seems to cause a problem!

 

[Watershed]

According to Wiki they have hydraulic transmission but some contributors have mentioned mechanical. Which is it please?

Both. Like a lot of other diesel units, they start off using a hydraulic transmission but switch to mechnical transmission at higher speeds. Can't remember the exact changeover speed but I imagine it'll be range of ~45mph (class 150) to 70mph (class 170).

 

[Spartacus]

It's quite typical to hear the engine hunting. No idea why but they've always seemed to do it and it never seems to cause a problem!

If I remember right hunting on units is usually either due to running a lean mixture or issues with the air filters. Both cease to be an issue when power's taken.

 

[randyrippley]

You should see how busy first class gets at time, especially at weekends these days. It's easily forgotten but first is often a valuable source of revenue, far above what it costs to provide. To get the same revenue standard class tickets would have to go up in price, even without factoring in the cost of conversion. I don't think most passengers would be grateful for that.

185s are a rarity these days, a train with comfortable seats and decent leg room. And all some people want to do it turn them into yet another cattle class people mover so many complain about on a day to day basis! As someone who travels on them regularly, I hope they stay as they are!

Are you saying that standard class passengers are cattle class people? That's how it reads.

 

[D Mylchreest]

Both. Like a lot of other diesel units, they start off using a hydraulic transmission but switch to mechnical transmission at higher speeds. Can't remember the exact changeover speed but I imagine it'll be range of ~45mph (class 150) to 70mph (class 170).

Thanks for that

 

[Mordac]

I used to travel on these often and that was always my assessment too - they're generally pretty nice trains, with their only real limiting factor being that they should have been gangwayed and 4 or 5 cars.

Their acceleration gives many electrics a run for their money, the ride is fairly smooth, and I'd always rather the AC was a tad too cool than end up in a sweatbox.

They also sound amazing for multiple units. The insulation is very good so you can't really tell when inside them, but standing on the platform when one is departing you get some nice thrash!

 

[Spartacus]

Are you saying that standard class passengers are cattle class people? That's how it reads.

No, I'm saying wedging in as many seats as possible is, especially with little leg room and almost vertically inclined seats. I can't think of anything built more recently than the 185s that compares for comfort. I'd even prefer the 185 'ballroom' tip up seats to some.

 

[hacman]

They also sound amazing for multiple units. The insulation is very good so you can't really tell when inside them, but standing on the platform when one is departing you get some nice thrash!

Typical Siemens engineering - built like the proverbial brick sh*thouse. Their lack of flimsiness absolutely contributes to a quieter ride inside than many DMUs.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

As a passenger they always seem to be solid, decent trains to me. Decent seats, leg room, big windows, minimal first class - what's not to like?

The aforementioned minimalism of first class if you’ve paid for it!

 

[computerSaysNo]

Both. Like a lot of other diesel units, they start off using a hydraulic transmission but switch to mechnical transmission at higher speeds. Can't remember the exact changeover speed but I imagine it'll be range of ~45mph (class 150) to 70mph (class 170).

Train Simulator Classic has a highly detailed Class 185 add-on available for purchase; its manual says this:

Class 185s are fitted with a Voith T312 bre hydraulic transmission to convert the power from the engine into traction power.
The Voith T312 bre varies from more common Voith transmission seen in trains such as sprinters by being a purely hydraulic design with no coupling. This means that the engine speed is not in ex-act sync to the output speed at any point.

The webpage is here, scroll down to find the link to the manual: Alan Thompson Sim.
I can't find information in those words from the Voith website but I did find this:

A three-speed transmission with hydrodynamic torque con-
verter, two hydrodynamic couplings, integrated retarder and
mechanical reversing gear[...]

Source was the PDF I found from searching the internet, here. This would seem to suggest that the transmission always uses either a (hydraulic) torque converter or a (hydraulic) fluid coupling, and never engages "lockup". I'm unsure what the advance in this is, but I would imagine a drawback is significantly worsened fuel economy?

 

[AirRail]

I agree. When they had their last refurb (current interior), it would have been good to increase the seating capacity. I saw a model where an increase of 26-30 additional seats could be added per each 3 car unit. I think it was with the removal of a couple of tables per carriage and possibly slight reduction in seat pitch (which is already generous on these units).

That said, this time last year, there was a thread talking about another refresh of these units, both externally and internally.

It was mentioned that the exterior would include the replacement of the external vinyl bodyside wraps. Interior to include the replacement of seat covers and carpets, and a comprehensive interior deep clean. Possibly to replace seat coverings to moquette.

Has any of this mentioned refresh commenced at all? Or with Labour in the government, has it all now been suspended if this has any impact to such plans and costs?

So refresh plans on the 185 have been put on hold then?

 

[Killingworth]

So refresh plans on the 185 have been put on hold then?

Rather looks like it. Deep in 34 pages of their Prospectus in October 2023 there's a timeline from November 2023 to March 2025, and it said;

Class 185 trains refresh: this will include replacement of external vinyl bodyside wraps, replacement of seat covers and carpets, and a comprehensive interior deep clean.

Previous closed thread here; https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/tpe-class-185s-to-be-refreshed.256420/

 

[coppercapped]

Train Simulator Classic has a highly detailed Class 185 add-on available for purchase; its manual says this:

The webpage is here, scroll down to find the link to the manual: Alan Thompson Sim.
I can't find information in those words from the Voith website but I did find this:

Source was the PDF I found from searching the internet, here. This would seem to suggest that the transmission always uses either a (hydraulic) torque converter or a (hydraulic) fluid coupling, and never engages "lockup". I'm unsure what the advance in this is, but I would imagine a drawback is significantly worsened fuel economy?

The significance of the two fluid couplings is that each drives through a different set of gear ratios, so it's a three speed transmission rather than a 'two speed' transmission as used for lower power units. If a 'lock-up' clutch were used then two clutches would be needed, one for each ratio, assuming the gearbox retains its permanently meshed gears. A clutch which can take the power of a 750bhp engine is chunkier than one needed for half the power and it introduces additional components which can wear.

The difference in rotational speed between the driven and the driving rotors in a fluid coupling is in the order of 2 or 3 percent so some energy is lost as heat - but not much - but in return one has a transmission with no mechanical clutch mechanisms with their wearing surfaces. This pays off in higher reliability and less maintenance. Also an economy.