185s question

[BoroAndy]

Are the 51 185s with tpe the only 185s ever made? If yes, why? And if not, where are the others?

 

[driver9000]

Are the 51 185s with tpe the only 185s ever made? If yes, why? And if not, where are the others?

Yes. They were specifically ordered for Transpennine services to replace 158s.

 

[TheGrew]

The 185 wasn't more broadly produced because they were designed for the steep gradients of the transpennine routes and uses the same engines as the Voyagers. It is quite heavy and thirsty compared to the 158 for example.

 

[M60lad]

With 185s having the same engines as Voyagers why don't the engines sound like Voyager engines?

 

[TheGrew]

I'm not sure but it might be partially down to the transmission. The Voyagers are diesel electric with the engines driving an alternator that generates electricity then used by electric traction motors (a bit like a Hybrid Car). The 185s use a more conventional transmission (more akin to a normal car).

 

[Pete_uk]

I remember someone calling them 'The lards bucket lard bucket' as they were so heavy.
Watching videos of them, they do get a move on. I guess it's a case of a order to meet a particular need as opposed to a jack of all trades.

 

[Mollman]

There also wasn't much demand for new DMUs by then, and what demand there was went to the lighter weight Turbostar.

 

[D365]

There also wasn't much demand for new DMUs by then, and what demand there was went to the lighter weight Turbostar.

Was the Class 170 still in production when First Transpennine placed the order?

 

[Mollman]

Was the Class 170 still in production when First Transpennine placed the order?

The last ones were built in 2004/5 so I expect it would have been. No new DMUs were then ordered until the 172s in 2010.

 

[fgwrich]

Was the Class 170 still in production when First Transpennine placed the order?

IIRC, I believe First were impressed by Siemens can do attitude at the time and following large orders of the Desiro family for both FGE / SWT & the SRA + Central / Silverlink that played a part in Siemens being a rolling stock partner for the FTPE Franchise with Keolis.

Meanwhile, didn't Arriva have a proposal for an Alsthom built unit, possibly something on the Coradia platform (probably just as well they didn't!).

As for the Turbostar option, it's likely they were ruled out from the early stages. Although they were in construction from when the 185 was ordered till when they started entering service, the 185s were ordered with the intention of having a superior performance than a 158 and something matching that of a class 180 - presumably for the WCML sections which a Turbostar wouldn't have met.

Either way, like most Siemens built units, they've been excellent performers over the years even if they are a little on the heavy side. Just a shame that a, like the 444 nobody else ordered them and B, the SRA cut the order number down!

 

[Ash Bridge]

IIRC, I believe First were impressed by Siemens can do attitude at the time and following large orders of the Desiro family for both FGE / SWT & the SRA + Central / Silverlink that played a part in Siemens being a rolling stock partner for the FTPE Franchise with Keolis.

Meanwhile, didn't Arriva have a proposal for an Alsthom built unit, possibly something on the Coradia platform (probably just as well they didn't!).

As for the Turbostar option, it's likely they were ruled out from the early stages. Although they were in construction from when the 185 was ordered till when they started entering service, the 185s were ordered with the intention of having a superior performance than a 158 and something matching that of a class 180 - presumably for the WCML sections which a Turbostar wouldn't have met.

Either way, like moose Siemens built units, they've been excellent performers over the years even if they are a little on the heavy side. Just a shame that a, like the 444 nobody else ordered them and B, the SRA cut the order number down!

Yes, if only they had been built with an additional intermediate car or perhaps a gangwayed cab as per the 444?

 

[TRAX]

With 185s having the same engines as Voyagers why don't the engines sound like Voyager engines?

There’s more to the sound of an engine than just the model of it. The train that’s around it, the position of the engine, etc, a lot of stuff plays a part in how an engine sounds.
And as was pointed earlier, the transmission is different.

 

[darylyates17]

185s have big exhausts which give them the unique meaty sound (I personally think Siemens designed them to sound like they do) you can clearly hear the block sounds the same as the 180 and the Voyagers if you listen carefully when the engines are idling.

 

[Virgin Voyager]

Always wondered this about 185s, how come they are all numbered 185/1s? I don't recall any overhauls similar to what the 91s went through in order to be re numbered to /1s rarther than /0s

 

[darylyates17]

Always wondered this about 185s, how come they are all numbered 185/1s? I don't recall any overhauls similar to what the 91s went through in order to be re numbered to /1s rarther than /0s

Always been 185/1s

 

[notadriver]

Technology has moved on. The 195 has similar performance with less powerful and more efficient cleaner quieter engines.

 

[fgwrich]

185s have big exhausts which give them the unique meaty sound (I personally think Siemens designed them to sound like they do) you can clearly hear the block sounds the same as the 180 and the Voyagers if you listen carefully when the engines are idling.

Thanks to the mechanical transmission set up, you can hear a touch of similarity in this video.

Still excellent units though!

 

[darylyates17]

Thanks to the mechanical transmission set up, you can hear a touch of similarity in this video.

Still excellent units though!

Same engine and gearbox (with shorter ratios) as the 180s so will sound similar you can’t really hear the exhaust inside unless in a tunnel.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Sep 2024 ==

Technology has moved on. The 195 has similar performance with less powerful and more efficient cleaner quieter engines.

A lot of it is due to the mechanical gearbox on the CAF units helps with acceleration.

 

[notadriver]

Same engine and gearbox (with shorter ratios) as the 180s so will sound similar you can’t really hear the exhaust inside unless in a tunnel.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Sep 2024 ==


A lot of it is due to the mechanical gearbox on the CAF units helps with acceleration.

Yes 172s had the ZF 6 speed eco life box and were superior in acceleration to 16x and 170s. They had a 485 bhp engine per car able to hit 60 mph in around 83 seconds. A typical 158/ 166/168 takes around 100 seconds with the torque converter gearbox. The 523 bhp engine each 195 vehicle can produce a 67 second time to 60 mph in power mode.

 

[simonmpoulton]

Isn't a mechanical gearbox in these newer units inherently less reliable than the hydraulic gearboxes in the older units? Or has modern gearbox design moved on to the point where this isn't the case anymore?

 

[TRAX]

Isn't a mechanical gearbox in these newer units inherently less reliable than the hydraulic gearboxes in the older units? Or has modern gearbox design moved on to the point where this isn't the case anymore?

While I don’t have facts and figures about their reliability, it does seem to be the new norm in the UK (see all of the diesel Civities), has been in use abroad for some time, and ZF make reliable products.

 

[Bevan Price]

Yes 172s had the ZF 6 speed eco life box and were superior in acceleration to 16x and 170s. They had a 485 bhp engine per car able to hit 60 mph in around 83 seconds. A typical 158/ 166/168 takes around 100 seconds with the torque converter gearbox. The 523 bhp engine each 195 vehicle can produce a 67 second time to 60 mph in power mode.

But 172s seem better than 196s at climbing banks, despite a slightly inferior power to weight ratio. From a standing start at Bromsgrove, pairs of 172/2s are the only dmus that I have had passing Barnt Green in less than 5 minutes.

 

[notadriver]

But 172s seem better than 196s at climbing banks, despite a slightly inferior power to weight ratio. From a standing start at Bromsgrove, pairs of 172/2s are the only dmus that I have had passing Barnt Green in less than 5 minutes.

I wonder if the gearbox is set up differently on those.

 

[TRAX]

I wonder if the gearbox is set up differently on those.

For starters it’s not the same gearbox model, the Civities have the successor of the 172’s ZF Ecomat Rail, the ZF EcoLife Rail, which works a bit differently.

 

[IanXC]

Yes, if only they had been built with an additional intermediate car or perhaps a gangwayed cab as per the 444?

4th vehicles were on the agenda at the outset, you'll notice the vehicle numbers are 51xxx, 53xxx and 54xxx. Authorisation to purchase these was never obtained from the SRA.

 

[43096]

4th vehicles were on the agenda at the outset, you'll notice the vehicle numbers are 51xxx, 53xxx and 54xxx. Authorisation to purchase these was never obtained from the SRA.

I assume you are referring to skipping 52xxx? The 521xx series (and indeed most of the 52xxx series) is not available as it is used for Sprinter vehicles.

 

[Ash Bridge]

4th vehicles were on the agenda at the outset, you'll notice the vehicle numbers are 51xxx, 53xxx and 54xxx. Authorisation to purchase these was never obtained from the SRA.

Something I hadn’t noticed, thanks for pointing it out!

 

[driverd]

IIRC, I believe First were impressed by Siemens can do attitude at the time and following large orders of the Desiro family for both FGE / SWT & the SRA + Central / Silverlink that played a part in Siemens being a rolling stock partner for the FTPE Franchise with Keolis.

Meanwhile, didn't Arriva have a proposal for an Alsthom built unit, possibly something on the Coradia platform (probably just as well they didn't!).

Arriva were going to go with voyagers. I think I still have an old leaflet with an artists impression of one pulling into Huddersfield, knocking around somewhere.

As for the Turbostar option, it's likely they were ruled out from the early stages. Although they were in construction from when the 185 was ordered till when they started entering service, the 185s were ordered with the intention of having a superior performance than a 158 and something matching that of a class 180 - presumably for the WCML sections which a Turbostar wouldn't have met.

It was less about the WCML and more about the gradients - although as was realised later in the franchise, the 170s had an advantage on Hull/South routes in that they could utilise SP speeds. A great shame it wasn't realised sooner really (from a personal standpoint) as I find the 170s far superior to the 185s.

Either way, like most Siemens built units, they've been excellent performers over the years even if they are a little on the heavy side. Just a shame that a, like the 444 nobody else ordered them and B, the SRA cut the order number down!

Allegedly (so the senior management said), the then MD preferred the clean fronts of the 360s to the gangways of the 450s, therefore it was to be flat fronts!

Personally I always found the 170s a better unit from the passenger, staff and in service reliability perspective (things like air con, engines and toilets generally worked on 170s, less so the 185s) but the performance of the 185s remains impressive.

 

[Spartacus]

The Pennines have a history of producing rather specialist units, the old 110s and 124s being good examples.

The 170s were nice in their way (not least due to the declassified section) but they weren't half sluggish over the hills compared to the 185s.

 

[Crossover]

The 185 wasn't more broadly produced because they were designed for the steep gradients of the transpennine routes and uses the same engines as the Voyagers. It is quite heavy and thirsty compared to the 158 for example.

They also can't do SP (Sprinter) differential speeds because of their axle loading. From memory, this was of particular detriment on the Hull line where the 170's largely plied their trade. The acceleration of the 185 made up for the lower top speed on that line though