14yo Daughters Fine, no ticket, no way to pay...

[ChrisPackit]

Hi

Here's hoping you can help.

Back in October 23, my daughter took her first train journey alone with a friend into Manchester. She was 14 years old, and I gave her some cash to buy a ticket as she didnt possess a debit card, and told her to buy a ticket at the station. Upon arrival at the station, the ticket booth was closed due to technical reasons (daughter took a photo of the sign at the booth) and she couldnt buy a ticket. She boarded to train to Manchester and there was no conductor on board to allow her to buy a ticket, so when she disembarked, she got pulled up by the inspectors for having no ticket.

She came home and told me, so I appealled the notice with Penalty Services and told them there was no way for her to buy a ticket as the booth was closed etc, and they responded with "there were card payment methods available at the station" and the fine still stands.

This is a £100 Penalty fare which is totally injust and was completely unavoidable but Penalty Services says it still stands.

What are my options (apart from not paying this out of sheer annoyance) regarding this?

Any help appreciated.

Thanks Chris

 

[methecooldude]

She came home and told me, so I appealled the notice with Penalty Services and told them there was no way for her to buy a ticket as the booth was closed etc, and they responded with "there were card payment methods available at the station" and the fine still stands.

What station was your daughter travelling from?

The fact that were card payment facilities available doesn't really matter. I'm glad your daughter had the forethought to take a picture of the sign at the ticket office

If I'm not mistaken, you have 3 appeal attempts, the third being to an independent appeals body, I would suggest using all of them

 

[AlterEgo]

You have appealed the notice which statute bars a prosecution of your daughter. She cannot be pursued for the civil debt as she is not of age. The train company has no further recourse owing to her age.

 

[ChrisPackit]

You have appealed the notice which statute bars a prosecution of your daughter. She cannot be pursued for the civil debt as she is not of age. The train company has no further recourse owing to her age.

Is this correct? Ive noticed that the latest letter is addressed to "Parent / Guardian of" though ?

 

[AlterEgo]

Is this correct? Ive noticed that the latest letter is addressed to "Parent / Guardian of" though ?

Yes, it's correct, they have no legal recourse now against a 14 year old. You as a parent cannot be held liable.

 

[ChrisPackit]

Yes, it's correct, they have no legal recourse now against a 14 year old. You as a parent cannot be held liable.

Thank you for your response.

Would there be any kind of "statute barred" letter template you could point me to, so I can respond with the appropriate wording?

 

[Olivine]

Upon arrival at the station, the ticket booth was closed due to technical reasons (daughter took a photo of the sign at the booth) and she couldnt buy a ticket.

Excellent foresight - what an idea for a 14 year old!

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you for your response.

Would there be any kind of "statute barred" letter template you could point me to, so I can respond with the appropriate wording?

You might want to continue down the Appeal route first (as opposed to pointing out your daughter's rights and essentially telling them to 'get stuffed' which I doubt will endear her or you to them...)

Due to her age she did not have a debit card. She is not obliged to pay by card and she did not have one anyway. The ticket office was closed, and she has proof. I would think this has to be the basis of the appeal to the next stages.

The £50 prompt payment by Penalty Fare (assume this is a Penalty Fare?) is frozen during the appeal process (so it should not be £100 if it is actually a genuine Penalty Fare as opposed to one of Northern's other demands for payment.

The only issue is - and I would completely understand if you or your daughter do not know of this - is that if there is a ticket machine at the station and unable to use it due to no card, then their rules oblige her to obtain a 'permit promise to pay'* slip from the ticket machine which she could then have shown at her destination and they should then have allowed her to buy a ticket with the cash she had. I'm guessing she did not do this (and probably did not know she had to)?

You may want to get advice from the forum on content of any draft letter / appeal you prepare before sending it in, juts so experts can check your form of words etc.

Good luck with sorting this.

*EDIT - but see post 16 below ref this which I was unaware of.

 

[fandroid]

Can we please see a copy of the notice given to your daughter, with all identifying details (including reference numbers) covered up. That will help us to know what sort of penalty it is. Also, any letters received by you.

 

[spag23]

Can we see a copy a the Booth Closed photo too.

 

[ChrisPackit]

Can we please see a copy of the notice given to your daughter, with all identifying details (including reference numbers) covered up. That will help us to know what sort of penalty it is. Also, any letters received by you.

Hi guys, thanks so much for your help.

Heres the letters received so far.

Attachments removed by Moderator due to privacy concerns pending re-upload by OP

 

[Mcr Warrior]

What station was your daughter travelling from?

@ChrisPackit. Could you advise/clarify?

 

[Bletchleyite]

As this is Northern, she needs to know for future reference that if wishing to pay cash the machine can issue what is called a "Promise to Pay". You put in your journey details and select to pay cash, then it produces a voucher that allows cash to be paid (I couldn't tell you the exact sequence as I've not paid cash for a train ticket for about 25 years, but others may be able to do so). This is only at stations operated by Northern, however. I personally think it's not clear enough that this is necessary, unlike the old Permits to Travel where there was obvious signage and an obvious way to do it.

I have however never been quite sure where these Promise to Pay vouchers sit legally - they aren't Permits to Travel which did have legal status (and required insertion of a minimum of 5 pence cash to get one). Others may be able to comment on that.

However if the situation recurs, obtaining one of those will make things a lot easier for her and will allow cash to be paid on board or at her destination.

 

[superkopite]

You forgot to blank your daughters name from the body of the second letter

 

[Bletchleyite]

The £50 prompt payment by Penalty Fare (assume this is a Penalty Fare?) is frozen during the appeal process (so it should not be £100 if it is actually a genuine Penalty Fare as opposed to one of Northern's other demands for payment.

It is, but only if the appeal is submitted within those 21 days - it stops the clock but does not reset it. Was it?

 

[WesternLancer]

It is, but only if the appeal is submitted within those 21 days - it stops the clock but does not reset it. Was it?

Thanks for clarifications and correction ref my earlier post. Should be helpful to the OP.

Also looks like some time may have elapsed since the 1st stage of the Appeal was decided. So I don't know if that means the chance to Appeal at further stages may now have been lost. If so that reduces the OP's options. I've not checked the rules on this.

 

[skyhigh]

As this is Northern, she needs to know for future reference that if wishing to pay cash the machine can issue what is called a "Promise to Pay".

This isn't relevant here though - if there is a ticket office at the station none of the machines will be set up to issue a Promise to Pay. This also applies if there's a TVM which accepts cash at the station (even if it's out of order).

 

[Haywain]

I'm afraid that given the issue date of the Penalty Fare it is difficult to see how you could still be within the times allowed for an appeal to be submitted. This would explain why the reminder is pointing out that the amount now due is £103.65.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This isn't relevant here though - if there is a ticket office at the station none of the machines will be set up to issue a Promise to Pay. This also applies if there's a TVM which accepts cash at the station (even if it's out of order).

Interesting. I thought it could be (and was) switched on if the booking office was closed (in the same manner Permit to Travel machines used to be) - though it's always possible for the staff to forget to do so.

If I'm wrong on that, apologies for any confusion caused.

 

[skyhigh]

Interesting. I thought it could be (and was) switched on if the booking office was closed (in the same manner Permit to Travel machines used to be) - though it's always possible for the staff to forget to do so.

If I'm wrong on that, apologies for any confusion caused.

When I was involved with the machines it definitely wasn't possible. It might have changed since but I'm fairly sure it hasn't - I can ask around though.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

What station was your daughter travelling from?

@ChrisPackit. Could you advise/clarify?

The second image shows that the journey was from Hindley to Manchester Victoria.

On the more general issue, I think we could usefully clarify two or three things
(1) whether the appeal process has been exhausted: I suspect that there may be something on the second page of the third image (letter dated 11 December 2023) saying when an appeal needed to be made by, and I further suspect that the date may have passed
- assuming the appeal process to have been exhausted
(2) whether it is possible for the railway to prosecute in this case
(3) bearing in mind the age of the passenger whether there is any way that Northern can pursue them or their parent/guardian for the outstanding penalty fare


I know that we've touched on all of these points (and for what it's worth I think the answers are (1) Yes (2) No but Northern do have form for trying to do so, albeit when the passenger was an adult and (3) No) but it would be good for those who really understand these things to comment so that the OP knows where they sit. It's possible that ignoring the letters or sending a stroppy response may be an entirely safe thing to do: it's also possible that Northern may have enough rights (or think they have enough rights) in the matter to come down and make the OP's (and daughter's) life thoroughly miserable until the matter is resolved.

 

[Fermiboson]

Hi guys, thanks so much for your help.

Heres the letters received so far.

Please do be aware that the file names as well as parts of the letter still show the name of your daughter. You may want to recensor them more throughoutly.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The second image shows that the journey was from Hindley to Manchester Victoria.

Thanks for that. Hindley station does have a ticket office, doesn't it, which ought to have been open for a journey made on a Monday morning, noting also that the PF was supposedly issued at 11:03 on 23Oct2023.

 

[ChrisPackit]

@ChrisPackit. Could you advise/clarify?

Is was Hindley (nr Wigan) into Manchester Vic.

 

[island]

You have appealed the notice which statute bars a prosecution of your daughter. She cannot be pursued for the civil debt as she is not of age. The train company has no further recourse owing to her age.

This isn't necessarily true. A minor can be liable for an unpaid debt for the purchase of necessaries. It would depend whether the train journey was deemed to fall into this category.

However, regardless of age, I have never heard of a train company using the civil recovery route, adult or child, so this may be a moot point.

 

[AlterEgo]

Thank you for your response.

Would there be any kind of "statute barred" letter template you could point me to, so I can respond with the appropriate wording?

When was the penalty fare issued and when did you appeal it?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Hindley station does have a ticket office, doesn't it, which ought to have been open for a journey made on a Monday morning, noting also that the PF was supposedly issued at 11:03 on 23Oct2023.

Just to clarify that in post #1, the OP states that their daughter asserts that the ticket office / booth at Hindley was not open on the morning in question.

So, if this is correct, how then should it have been possible for her to pay the fare by cash? Does a 'Promise to Pay' voucher (if one can be got) always have to be obtained, prior to travel?

 

[skyhigh]

So, if this is correct, how then should it have been possible for her to pay the fare by cash?

On the train or at the destination, assuming Hindley doesn't have a TVM that accepts cash (which I don't think it does).

 

[ChrisPackit]

Just to clarify that in post #1, the OP states that their daughter asserts that the ticket office / booth at Hindley was not open on the morning in question.

So, if this is correct, how then should it have been possible for her to pay the fare by cash?

My point exactly. I have (somewhere) photo evidence of the booth being closed.

 

[fandroid]

This isn't necessarily true. A minor can be liable for an unpaid debt for the purchase of necessaries. It would depend whether the train journey was deemed to fall into this category.

However, regardless of age, I have never heard of a train company using the civil recovery route, adult or child, so this may be a moot point.

The fare is still unpaid. Perhaps the OP could simply send a cheque for that amount. Then there would be no debt for the "necessaries" supplied in this instance.