14yo Daughters Fine, no ticket, no way to pay...

[ChrisPackit]

When was the penalty fare issued and when did you appeal it?

I believe the fine came in mid October and a letter was sent within 14 days of receipt.

Thanks

 

[rs101]

When I was involved with the machines it definitely wasn't possible. It might have changed since but I'm fairly sure it hasn't - I can ask around though.

Northern's website says promise to pay is only available at unstaffed stations. Presumably if this ticket office was supposed to be open, it's not an unstaffed station...

 

[Bertie the bus]

My point exactly. I have (somewhere) photo evidence of the booth being closed.

Your problem is that after your first appeal was rejected you don't appear to have done anything, either launch a second appeal within the specified time limit or paid.

Something that needs to be considered along with the comments regarding the likelihood of your daughter being either prosecuted or chased for the debt is that they have her details and if this Penalty Fare goes unpaid and she comes to their attention again that could count against her. It might be best to just pay it (through gritted teeth).

 

[pedr]

Is the issue of capacity to contract/enforcement of contracts entered into by minors something of a red herring? The liability to pay a penalty fare is statutory, under the authority of the Penalty Fare Regulations, rather than contractual, and the process to challenge the validity of a penalty fare and the resulting liability to pay it is set out in those Regulations.

It does appear inappropriate for the first stage appeal to assume that a passenger has the ability to pay by card at a station which should have had an open ticket office at the relevant time, but if the time allowed to make a second-stage appeal has elapsed, there may be no further way to challenge the liability to pay.

 

[sheff1]

This isn't relevant here though - if there is a ticket office at the station none of the machines will be set up to issue a Promise to Pay. This also applies if there's a TVM which accepts cash at the station (even if it's out of order).

When the Promise to Pay coupons were first introduced I obtained one at a station with a ticket office just to see how the system worked.

Does a 'Promise to Pay' voucher (if one can be got) always have to be obtained, prior to travel?

Northern claim it does. Whether that claim is legally sound has been debated on here a few times with, as far as I am aware, no consenus being reached.

 

[Fokx]

Northern's website says promise to pay is only available at unstaffed stations. Presumably if this ticket office was supposed to be open, it's not an unstaffed station...

It is available to unstaffed stations but this does also include stations where a station has a ticket office that is unstaffed, Northern DO switch on and off the promise to pay feature remotely

However, this doesn’t always happen.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Feb 2024 ==

It’s total luck of the draw

 

[Elecman]

I would send a letter to Northern with the case number referenced along with a cheque covering just the outstanding unpaid fare so that there is then no longer any outstanding debt. In full and final settlement.

 

[island]

Your problem is that after your first appeal was rejected you don't appear to have done anything, either launch a second appeal within the specified time limit or paid.

Something that needs to be considered along with the comments regarding the likelihood of your daughter being either prosecuted or chased for the debt is that they have her details and if this Penalty Fare goes unpaid and she comes to their attention again that could count against her. It might be best to just pay it (through gritted teeth).

It should be noted that assuming the first appeal was made on time and in line with the regulations, the fact it’s been resolved means a prosecution cannot be taken.

 

[Starmill]

Interesting. I thought it could be (and was) switched on if the booking office was closed (in the same manner Permit to Travel machines used to be) - though it's always possible for the staff to forget to do so.

If I'm wrong on that, apologies for any confusion caused.

The facility was frequently left enabled at certain stations all the time which previously caused confusion. This led to lots of accusations of fare evasion by people who used it instead of the booking office, so was eventually standardised on as just not being available. It also prompted some extremely unprofessional handmade notices threatening customers if they used the promise to pay functionality while the ticket office was open. I'm unaware of anywhere it was available as you describe. I'm uncertain how that could be controlled otherwise than by the ticket office staff servicing the machine to enable / disable it themselves? I don't think that's something the ticket office staff would ever agree to doing willingly without more money anyway.

Indeed there are loads of other stations where they're never available from the machine like Saxilby, Helsby, Seamer, Oxenholme Lake District etc etc so ultimately it's not really that unusual.

 

[david1212]

... It also prompted some extremely unprofessional handmade notices threatening customers if they used the promise to pay functionality while the ticket office was open. ....

In reverse if the ticket office is closed and 'promise to pay' on the TVM is activated is there a notice, even if handwritten, in the ticket office window clearly stating that if the intending passenger can not use the TVM to buy their ticket because they do not have a credit/debit card pay that they must obtain a 'promise to pay' voucher from the TVM before travel?

 

[Bertie the bus]

It should be noted that assuming the first appeal was made on time and in line with the regulations, the fact it’s been resolved means a prosecution cannot be taken.

I wasn't suggesting otherwise. I was just making the point that her not being prosecuted or chased for the debt doesn't automatically mean there might not be consequences if the PF remains unpaid and she comes to Northern's attention again in the future. Just something that the OP might like to consider when deciding what to do.

 

[Starmill]

In reverse if the ticket office is closed and 'promise to pay' on the TVM is activated is there a notice, even if handwritten, in the ticket office window clearly stating that if the intending passenger can not use the TVM to buy their ticket because they do not have a credit/debit card pay that they must obtain a 'promise to pay' voucher from the TVM before travel?

I don't know. I guess it's in the nature of handmade notices that they're not consistent!