125mph frieght?

[junglejames]

It wont happen with HSTs because they dont have the tractive effort. With just 1 PC they probably wouldnt even manage 125 with any decent load. 1 PC takes forever to reach 125 with just 8 or 9 Mk3s in tow.

 

[Wyvern]

And then there'd be the fun of stopping umpteen thousand tonnes from 125mph?

 

[jopsuk]

are axle loads on freight that much higher than on passenger trains? With all axles braked, the overall size of the train is unimportant- the braking force scales with the train mass surely? Yes, with unfitted stock the length made a difference, but whilst I appreciate the momentum of a long train is more than that of a short one, there is more brake force to compensate.

 

[Rugd1022]

are axle loads on freight that much higher than on passenger trains? With all axles braked, the overall size of the train is unimportant- the braking force scales with the train mass surely? Yes, with unfitted stock the length made a difference, but whilst I appreciate the momentum of a long train is more than that of a short one, there is more brake force to compensate.

Very much higher. The overall size of the train is still important, even when empty they can take a bit of stopping. I've mentioned this in another thread recently but you can have the same loco and set of wagons for a whole week and each time you apply the brake it will 'feel' and react differently. The handling characteristics of high sided empty wagons are also affected by air turbulence, most people don't realise this, it might sound odd but it's true

Customers and the TOCs want longer and heavier trains these days, so 125mph freight is out of the question, unless NR are prepared to resignal most routes just for this purpose. A HST can easily stop from 125mph under current signalling conditions, but a heavy freight doing the same speed on the same stretch of line will need a much greater distance to come to a stand. It's all down to physics

 

[Adamw5433]

but a heavy freight doing the same speed on the same stretch of line will need a much greater distance to come to a stand. It's all down to physics

Well yes i know this.
That is why i suugested a new wagon design with triple brake disks, like that Mk4 metro camell coaches have the EC use.

To distribute braking along the length of the train equally, and having superior braking, compared to conventional on wheel brake blocks.

I agree at some point there would be a problem with heat dissipation, and if too much braking is applied you end up skidding on the rail. Rather than having proper adhesion while braking.

The main reason for starting the thread was i saw a suggestion, that DB is considering running high speed frieght (not sure what speed). With the class 67s, with the brake block modifictions. That had been carried, out and had been found to work succesfully by DB.

Adam

 

[ChrisCooper]

They won't be doing 125mph with 67s for the reasons mentioned above, plus the fact that 67s can't do 125mph with anything like a load behind them, they just aren't powerful enough.

Another issue with high speed freight and braking is the time for the brakes to apply. All passenger trains running above 100mph haves some form of electropnumatic braking. On the HSTs it's the brakes being applied from both ends at the same time, I think DVTs might do the same but there is also the rheostatic brake that applies (quite powerfully) straight away regardless of the end the train is driven from. Other types have full EP brakes. Long freight trains though just have conventional air brakes, so it can take some time between applying the brakes and getting the full braking effect. At 125mph you are doing half a mile in 15 seconds, and that's based on a braking distance of just over a mile and a half.

 

[moonrakerz]

It wont happen with HSTs because they dont have the tractive effort. With just 1 PC they probably wouldnt even manage 125 with any decent load. 1 PC takes forever to reach 125 with just 8 or 9 Mk3s in tow.

Last time I was on an HST with a "dead" power car, we were informed that the max speed was 100mph. That sounds about right in mechanical terms - double the horse power for a 25% increase in speed.

 

[krus_aragon]

The handling characteristics of high sided empty wagons are also affected by air turbulence, most people don't realise this, it might sound odd but it's true

Is that open-top wagons, or in general?

 

[ChrisCooper]

A single working powercar won't effect the top speed, a HST on one powercar is perfectly capable of reaching 125mph downhill, but it will effect the balencing speed (the speed where power and resistance balence out). On the level though, around 100mph would likely be the maximum with a single powercar. It's actually slightly more than a half loss of power as the working powercar also needs to supply ETS, so you loose the more powerful none ETS powercar. It also effects acceleration and hill climbing. Running on just one powercar (as in the rear one missing) would restrict to 100mph due to the fact that the brakes would only be applied from one end, not both.

 

[The Planner]

FGW have never said they have a restricted speed for the ECS moves as the majority of those are timed as one engine only.

 

[Rugd1022]

Is that open-top wagons, or in general?

Open topped wagons in our case, as virtually all of our work at FLHH is shifting aggregates from Bardon Quarries. If you ever find yourself at Oxford station in the summer months, you'll see one of our empty trains heading north through the middle road, accelerating at about 40mph (having just left Hinksey Yard), when it's really dry you can see clouds of dust rising out of the wagons and you'll see just how much turbulance they can create.

 

[Adamw5433]

I came across this vid of 125mph frieght working in France.
The train length is much shorter than that of UK frieght atm, but the princible of large brake discs is the same.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWXDSb6U5P0


Adam

 

[jopsuk]

Presumably also relatively low mass fright- I appreciate that Heavy Haul freight is probably beyond the realms of high-speed, but surely containers are more within reason?

 

[Adamw5433]

Presumably also relatively low mass fright- I appreciate that Heavy Haul freight is probably beyond the realms of high-speed, but surely containers are more within reason?

Well i would assume containers are ok.
I realise 125mph coal is extremely unlikely.... Hence i never mentioned the idea in the opening thread.
Unless ofcourse we see a dedicated 125mph frieght line, with 20mile sections between signals. (again exetremely unlikely)

If HS2 takes enough traffic off classic rail, and frees up room on classic rail.
We may see a 5 - 10mph increase in speed for night time running frieght.


Adam

 

[LE Greys]

I'd've thought that we would be looking at something along these lines to start with.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mr5TnLyy9Y8&feature=related
It would be more about vanload traffic and distribution (i.e. parcels) than heavy freight for now. Perhaps a company such as DHL or UPS working with one of the freight companies. Container traffic really can't get much faster than 100 mph, partly since the major delays are caused by congestion at junctions and waiting for passenger trains rather than linespeed. Acceleration and deceleration are other factors. Actually, electric-hauled freight might help that, so perhaps some descendent of the Class 92 might do something.

 

[jopsuk]

We do of course have a fleet of (somewhat slower) a version of the TGV La Poste in the shape of the 325s.
Van load? Hmm. Even between the depots where they use artics, the courier firms tend to send stuff a lorry at a time. Perhaps a 125mph version of the old Parcels DMUs would suit them though? Take up a lot of paths, unless you could get a few going the same way coupled up where they meet the fast lines.

 

[LE Greys]

We do of course have a fleet of (somewhat slower) a version of the TGV La Poste in the shape of the 325s.
Van load? Hmm. Even between the depots where they use artics, the courier firms tend to send stuff a lorry at a time. Perhaps a 125mph version of the old Parcels DMUs would suit them though? Take up a lot of paths, unless you could get a few going the same way coupled up where they meet the fast lines.

I was thinking of a van by the railway definition, anything from an Insul-fish to a BG to a Cargowaggon, basically a covered freight vehicle. In this case, the body would basically be a windowless coach with roller-shutter doors, perhaps using recycled BT-10 bogies. I think it's just possible to get an airline luggage container into one, so something pallet-sized should fit as well, along with the older-style equipment used in the 325s. Capacity could be up to 40 tons, so about the same as an artic. Ten of them together would be 400 tons load plus whatever intrinsic weight, maybe a total of 700 tons. A 57 could get that to 95 mph easily, not so sure about a 67 reaching 125.

 

[O L Leigh]

The defining issue is cost.

Rail can't really compete with road transport because of the amount of time it would take to get a single container from A to B. Therefore the railways compete by being able to cheaply transport commodities in bulk, which is why you see so many bulk trains of aggregates, coal, intermodal containers and new road vehicles.

And this is where it becomes pointless. No matter what the characteristics of the stock and the capabilities of the motive power, a 125mph freight service will necessarily be shorter, lighter and have much higher running costs than a current freight service. In terms of cost in miles per ton it would likely to be at least double due to higher fuel costs and track access charges, not to mention the fact that such services could not carry the existing tonnage.

I like the idea, but I think it is flawed. I do think that the current freight operations could be improved and, with sufficient investment, start to attract some freight back from the roads onto rail. But higher operating speeds is not the answer.

O L Leigh

 

[Adamw5433]

I'd've thought that we would be looking at something along these lines to start with.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mr5TnLyy9Y8&feature=related
It would be more about vanload traffic and distribution (i.e. parcels) than heavy freight for now. Perhaps a company such as DHL or UPS working with one of the freight companies.

Lessons would be learnt from the loss of the EWS / Royal Mail trains.
Companies like DHL, UPS, Fedex, Royal Mail, TNT, ect... Would be locked into a 20 year deal or more by the fright operator, to ensure a good return on loco / wagon investments.

Adam

 

[LexyBoy]

I'd think the only market for fast freight would be express delivery of letters/parcels between major cities - i.e. courier services. Of course this will always be low volume and require frequent trains.

So what I'm thinking is that there's a lot of unused parcels space in DVTs and HST power cars, so would it be feasible for a sufficiently adventurous courier company to arrange with the TOC in question to use that space for parcels? Thus a package could be picked up from an office in London in the morning, be biked/vanned over to KGX to go on the 1200 to Edinburgh and get to the recipient by the end of the working day, which wouldn't be possible by road.

The TOC makes a bit of extra dosh without having to take any more pesky passengers, the courier has an edge over its competitors and there's a couple fewer vans on the road. Plus no actual investment is required (aside from a small office at the stations), so the risk is minimised.

I'm not sure how big the market for such a service would be, but I'd be surprised if it wouldn't be viable for relatively major financial centres such as Edinburgh and Cardiff (maybe Bristol, and maybe Manchester if there's any unused space on the Pendos). AFAIK there isn't any luggage van type area on Eurostars, which would probably be the best route!

(BTW I walk past road signs for "Red Star Parcels" in Reading every day!)

 

[Adamw5433]

(BTW I walk past road signs for "Red Star Parcels" in Reading every day!)

Couple of them dotted around Darlington too.
I assume its an old (not removed) sign for some form of royal mail drop in service.

Adam

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I'd think the only market for fast freight would be express delivery of letters/parcels between major cities - i.e. courier services. Of course this will always be low volume and require frequent trains.)

What about perishables?

 

[RobShipway]

I know this is thinking far into the future, but when the GWML gets Electrified could the IC125 carriages be converted into parcel carriages?

 

[Masbroughlad]

I know this is thinking far into the future, but when the GWML gets Electrified could the IC125 carriages be converted into parcel carriages?

Don't see why not. Would make sense.

I think I'd like to see them deployed elsewhere on passenger trains though.

 

[jopsuk]

Couple of them dotted around Darlington too.
I assume its an old (not removed) sign for some form of royal mail drop in service.

Adam

Nothing to do with Royal Mail- in fact, it was competition

 

[Adamw5433]

Nothing to do with Royal Mail- in fact, it was competition

Ah, thank you for the correct info.
I could only assume it was Royal Mail, as i had no previous knowledge of Red Sttar operations.

Adam

 

[Mintona]

I'm sure HS1 was designed for 100mph+ freight, with the connections to the North London Line. I don't really see why in principle a class 92 on containers couldn't use HS1 from Dollands Moor (except the obvious in cab signalling etc). There is even a passing loop at Lenham, and potentially Ebbsfleet and Stratford stations.

 

[Dolive22]

Could HST sets be modfied internally to take Royal Mail (or any of their competitors, who get much of the corporate work) cages and/or bags? Wouldn't need much change. They could get them on with a ramp like they do wheelchairs, something to hold them in place. They could leave them in the sidings 10/11 months of the year and roll them out for christmas. They would be available for the rest of the year if neccessary. Might even be a bit of a trojan horse for mail on rail, winning back routes one at a time.

Mail sorted for the midlands could get the train out late from St Pancras, Yorkshire etc. from KX, points west from Paddington. The only competitor for speed would be planes, which would need a slow lorry through the traffic to the airport, while rail delivers it to waiting vans in the city centre. No airside passes, no vetting drivers to CTC level, no congestion.

Derby, for example, could put their stuff going further north on when the Derby post was unloaded and their stuff going south on the equivalent running to London.

It wouldn't be any heavier than a packed passenger load once you've taken out the seats and toilets, so no braking, speed or acceleration issues.

It could even be shared, with DHL taking a carriage, TNT another, Royal Mail 1 or 2, maybe even the operator taking one for all the smaller firms. Special Delivery (and any really expensive parcels as well as the sensitive DX stuff) could go in the toilets with a new door that locks from the outside. Government Mail might take a carriage here and there for trunk stuff. They could use the toilets for red boxes which now commonly travel in empty (Government Car and Despatch Agency) cars to their ministers.

 

[Mystic Force]

I'm sure HS1 was designed for 100mph+ freight, with the connections to the North London Line. I don't really see why in principle a class 92 on containers couldn't use HS1 from Dollands Moor (except the obvious in cab signalling etc). There is even a passing loop at Lenham, and potentially Ebbsfleet and Stratford stations.

A civil engeneer friend of mine told me that there are issues runnuing heavy freight over high speed lines as it can impact the track geometry.

 

[RobShipway]

Could HST sets be modfied internally to take Royal Mail (or any of their competitors, who get much of the corporate work) cages and/or bags? Wouldn't need much change. They could get them on with a ramp like they do wheelchairs, something to hold them in place. They could leave them in the sidings 10/11 months of the year and roll them out for christmas. They would be available for the rest of the year if neccessary. Might even be a bit of a trojan horse for mail on rail, winning back routes one at a time.

Mail sorted for the midlands could get the train out late from St Pancras, Yorkshire etc. from KX, points west from Paddington. The only competitor for speed would be planes, which would need a slow lorry through the traffic to the airport, while rail delivers it to waiting vans in the city centre. No airside passes, no vetting drivers to CTC level, no congestion.

Derby, for example, could put their stuff going further north on when the Derby post was unloaded and their stuff going south on the equivalent running to London.

It wouldn't be any heavier than a packed passenger load once you've taken out the seats and toilets, so no braking, speed or acceleration issues.

It could even be shared, with DHL taking a carriage, TNT another, Royal Mail 1 or 2, maybe even the operator taking one for all the smaller firms. Special Delivery (and any really expensive parcels as well as the sensitive DX stuff) could go in the toilets with a new door that locks from the outside. Government Mail might take a carriage here and there for trunk stuff. They could use the toilets for red boxes which now commonly travel in empty (Government Car and Despatch Agency) cars to their ministers.

Dolive21, that was pretty much my thinking when I asked the same question earlier in this thread or alternatively have one HST set start out from Penzance in the morning and another start out from Aberdeen at the same time, whereby they collect post, parcels etc... on route through major cities then have the same going from Iverness to Dover using HS1 on route and another set on route at the same time Dove to Iverness.

Then keep the Class 325's to be used within the Southeast going along the Coast doing routes such as Dover to Penzance.

But that is me living in a dream world which will never happen....