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12-car platforms at Sawbridgeworth

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Velocireb

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Hello,

I'm a regular user of Greater Anglia's terrible service from Sawbridgeworth in to London. One thing more than any other baffles me (there are plenty of things that baffle me about GA, but this is the one that crops up most. Every morning, in fact, as I gaze across at the lovely long platforms).

Why have GA spent (presumably) thousands extending the platforms at Sawbridgeworth to accommodate 12-car trains - yet only ever run 8-cars. I have tweeted them about this, and they always reply with the same Kafkaesque answer 'We have no current plans to run 12-car trains to stop there.'

I assume they have extended so that at some indeterminate point in the future they can use them, but why would they invest the money in order for the extra platform length to be wasted?

Anyone any ideas?

Thanks

Velocireb
 
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47421

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it is very odd, over last few years platforms extended at Stan Mountfitchet, Brox and Cheshunt as well, but on West Anglia there are only three key trains each way a day (0647,0717,0747 Camb-LivSt, 1707/1737/1807 return, plus associated positioning trains) which are 12 car.

None of these trains stop at any of the stations with the newly extended platforms.
 

robby p

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As far as I am aware it was a network rail planned and funded project so GA had little to do with it, it was about in the NXEA times.

I believe you are right in that they will most likely be used in the near future. Stopping additional 12 car services here during disruption could be a plus but as class 379s have SDO it's not that much of an advantage.
 

Velocireb

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'as class 379s have SDO' - what does this mean, please?

So does nobody who deals with rail strategy care that these 12-car platforms are completely wasted? Thanks for the background info about NXEA; as a commuter it is such an infuriating situations. This morning the 8.14 Stansted Express was cancelled so passengers had to wait for the 8.33. In between a 12-car train went through, but of course did not stop.

There is space on the trains, the platforms are there, and yet none of it can be used!
 

ryan125hst

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'as class 379s have SDO'

I don't know if you are familiar with train classes, but if you aren't, this is a Class 379: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_379

SDO stands for Selective Door Operation and is a feature on many modern trains which allows them to stop on short platforms. Years ago, when trains had slam doors (where you had to lower the window and put your arm out the door to operate a handle), passengers were simply told to move down the train.

These days, with modern heath and safety rules/laws, trains that are too long for the platform must only allow the doors that are on the platform to open. The doors that can't be open are either selected by the driver, guard or electronically depending on the train and route (there's so many variations and I don't know them all!) and passengers in the carriages which are off the platform need to walk through the train to find a door that is on the platform to get off.

So, as an example, if a 12 car train uses a 10 car platform, the doors on the rear two carriages will be locked.

Hope that helps. :)
 

Velocireb

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ryan125hst - sort of! But the point here is that the platforms are long enough for the trains, so it is not a case of them being too long and having to keep some doors shut. There are 12-car trains running, we have platforms long enough for them, and yet they are never scheduled to stop at Sawbridgeworth or other stations on the line that have been similarly extended.

From a passenger point of view, it is beyond frustrating, as is GA's continued refusal to give any sort of coherent reply as to why we are in this situation.
 

47421

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I am sure I have seen GA tweet something along the lines that stops wont be added if delay is less than 30 mins, and in your case the delay is just under 30mins.

In practice GA rarely add stops, in fact nowadays it is more common to see them remove stops on late running trains so they make up time, not at all unusual for a stopping Camb - Liv St train to run fast from Bishops Stortford to Tott Hale.

Following canc of 0800 StanApt-LivSt I can see why they dont really want to stop the 0747 Camb-LivSt as that has a tight time to Tott Hale (20 min from Storford), and only just gets through Brox in front of 0830 Brox-LivSt stopper. However the 0815 StanApt- LivSt has a much gentler schedule, 30 mins from Stortford to Tott Hale, so even with Harlow Town stop it still has over 5 min recovery time as it catches a slower train. Would have thought stop could be added to that at Sawb with practically no knock on impact. But that is only 5 mins in front of next scheduled stopper at Sawb, so I suppose in minds of GA no point in adding stop on it
 

Velocireb

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@47421 I think there are two separate issues. One is that GA are as you point out reluctant to ever make additional stops to compensate for late-running trains. No doubt this is due to them wanting to hit their targets or whatever they are - once they've cancelled a train there's no point them making another one late, even if might help their customers out.

However. What I would really like to know (and maybe no one knows the answer!) is just why somebody, somewhere, made a decision to invest money in extending platforms along this route for 12-car trains, and then not stop any of them (regardless of whether it is to compensate for cancelled trains or not). Maybe it is because it would mess up the timings for other trains, but in that case, why extend the platforms? Some sort of study must have been done before they embarked on this path of throwing money at longer platforms but without any benefit to their paying customer? Did they build them and then not have the line capacity to use them? Did they build them because they (or Network Rail) have some masterplan that they don't want to tell their customers about? Or did they just have a load of spare cement and thought it might be a laugh?

I am as puzzled as ever!
 

OxtedL

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The platform extensions can be traced back to the Greater Anglia RUS (Route Utilisation Strategy) from 2009 [Edit:2007]. [Note "Greater Anglia" here is completely different to the current Train Operating Company which didn't then exist - it refers only to the region, for planning.]

It's (oddly) written in a different format to some other RUS's from that period, but included as "Option 8: Lengthen peak services between Cambridge/Stansted Airport and London Liverpool Street to 12-car" on page 109, it lists all stations non-12 car stations between Cheshunt and Cambridge as needing an intervention, and cryptically says:

"The cost estimates have been developed further since consultation. On the basis of this work it is recommended that platforms are lengthened at all stations on the route rather than installing selective door operation [the aforementioned SDO] at some."

Beyond this it is very unclear what is intended. A lack of planned SDO suggests (when you consider that 379s didn't appear until 2011) that it wasn't entirely clear that 12-car trains on the route would only initially be the new 379s, and I'd also infer that it means none of the platforms were horrendously expensive to extend.

We can then trace this improvement through - by 2010 it had committed funding through ORR's Network Rail determination for CP4 [ie for 2009-14].

But that still hasn't answered your question. I'm still looking to see if there's anything definite out there, but I suspect it's that calling patterns for the new 12-car services were unclear, and that more trains were envisaged to be lengthened in the near future than actually were.
 
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Bald Rick

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The short version is that 12 coach trains were recommended in a Route Utilisation Strategy, DfT decided to buy that output, and NR was thus required to build them. Separately DfT contracted with NXEA to buy more trains (the 379s) that would see 12 car Stansted expresses all day, which in turn would release stock to run 12 car formations on peak WA outer services.

This all happened in late 2007 / 2008, with the platform extensions constructed between 2009-11, including the island at Cambridge.

Then the economy went pop, Stansted airport passengers numbers went into full reverse thrust, and Abellio won the short franchise in 2011 on not running as many long trains as had been proposed, as the passenger numbers weren't there.

There are a few twists in the tale, but that is all for the long version which will appear in my memoirs.

Edit: although the final RUS was published in 2007, it had been in Draft for a while before that and indeed those involved knew what the outcome would be long before publication.
 
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OxtedL

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Edit: although the final RUS was published in 2009, it had been in Draft for a while before that and indeed those involved knew what the outcome would be long before publication.

Actually, my apologies, I meant 2007 - it is actually dated December 2007. I have edited my post.
 

Velocireb

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Very interesting - thanks all for posting.

I can see that 12-car trains running all day would probably be overkill. But what is frustrating is in the morning and evening peak we have two fast Stansted Express services stopping at Sawbridgeworth (the 7.14, 8.14 and then the 17.39 and 18.39 back in the evening) and they are always extremely busy. It's so frustrating to know that the platforms have been extended but are not used. Even worse when as often happens they short-form these trains...

Would GA even have enough rolling stock to make those trains 12 car?
 

OxtedL

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I reckon Stansted Express is 8 diagrams, so 16 units. The three Cambridge runs use 3x3 more, so that's 25 of the 30 Class 379s accounted for in the peak straight away - I don't know whether there are any others out and about.

Given what needs to be on the depot, I don't think you could lengthen your nominated Stansteds with the current Class 379 fleet, so you'd need to use something else to do the Cambridge runs, as Bald Rick has indicated was originally the plan.

I always get the impression GA struggle for units as things are, so I doubt they have any slack to do that.

How busy is extremely busy? Leaving people behind kind of busy, or just very uncomfortable?
 

jopsuk

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as I understand it, Stansted Express is 9 diagrams- so 27 units in use in the peaks.

As well as the unused extensions, there's also at for example Whittlesford Parkway Driver Only Operation (DOO) platform cameras and monitors positioned for 12 car services- but the 379s use bodyside cameras and in-cab monitors for this. The platform equipment would allow 12-car 317 services, but the fleet does not have the slack to allow this with the 317/7s off lease because Abellio Greater Anglia decided that they did not need them- so the stock exists for more longer trains, but they choose not to lease it and thus choose not offer more seats. A commercial decision that fits within their franchise specification.
 

anme

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So why don't we change the franchise specification? Why do we have to wait until next time the franchise is tendered, if the trains are available?

Obviously I know the answer to that, but it's worth pointing out again the inflexibility and idiocy of the current franchising system.
 

O L Leigh

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My understanding was that the plan to extend certain Cambridge services out to 12 cars in length pre-dated any plans to introduce trains capable of selective door opening (SDO) onto the routes. Therefore there would be a need for platform lengthening at certain locations to accommodate these services. (As an aside, it is always better to platform the entire train rather than rely on SDO as it speeds up loading and unloading and therefore reduces station dwell times.)

At the time, the stopping pattern for the semi-fast services to Cambridge were Tottenham Hale, Cheshunt, Broxbourne, Harlow Town, Sawbridgeworth, Bishops Stortford, Audley End, Whittlesford Parkway and Cambridge. Of these, all but Cheshunt, Broxbourne and Sawbridgeworth were already capable of accommodating 12 car trains, so these three station were targeted for platform extensions to permit the existing service pattern to be maintained. Stansted Mountfitchet was additionally earmarked for a platform extension due to the original plan of running 12 car Stansted Express services, as many of these services are timetabled to stop there.

What actually happened was, as Bald Rick says, the demand for a 12 car Stansted Express service disappeared and the balance of the 30 unit Cl379 order not used on Stansted Express services were used instead on Cambridge services. Whether or not this was instrumental to the Cl317/7 units going off-lease is open to debate, but the fact of the matter was that having placed the order for these new trains a use had to be found for them and the Cl317/7s were somewhat non-standard and, therefore, ripe for withdrawal.

What was not initially foreseen was that these 12 car Cambridge services would be express in nature and, therefore, would not call at those stations with newly lengthened platforms designed for just such services as these (nor those south of Audley End that could already accommodate a 12 car train). While I was never directly involved in operating these trains and was never particularly familiar with the peak time services from Cambridge, my understanding was always that these 12 car express services were run in addition to those services operating from Cambridge and, therefore, effectively took the pressure off slower services calling at places such as Sawbridgeworth.

If it helps, what I often observed is that passengers would join the Stratford service at Sawbridgeworth and then change at Harlow Town onto the Stansted Express service that follows this slower service, allowing them to get to Tottenham Hale and Liverpool Street sooner than waiting for a direct train. But to answer the original question, the service pattern always appeared to be about right for the location. Given the numbers that I saw travelling from Sawbridgeworth, 3 trains per hour off peak was about right and the peak time frequency with the additional stops on Stansted Express services, etc, seemed adequate. Compared to stations such as Ware on the Hertford East branch where the number of passengers always seemed to be much higher and with it's off peak frequency of 2 trains per hour and some additional services in the peak, I would argue that Sawbridgeworth doesn't do so badly.

However, what Sawbridgeworth suffers with is being that much further down the line past places where the services load up pretty heavily, such as Audley End and Bishops Stortford. Does this merit the introduction of a stop for the 12 car services? Perhaps. I always wondered about the loading of these trains given their stopping patterns but, having never worked them myself (they weren't operated by drivers from my depot), I can't really comment. Either way, the provision of an additional service stopping elsewhere can help to alleviate the problems of overloading that would otherwise exist. That is why some Stansted Express service stop (stopped...?) at places like Enfield Lock and Brimsdown during the morning peak. If they didn't, the loadings on the services coming up from Hertford East directly behind them would be impossible.

O L Leigh
 

Velocireb

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Well, we are definitely not talking about 'leave people behind' busy (I realise that this will seem like paradise to some commuters!) but more busy enough that sometimes you won't get a seat (and don't get me started on the number of people coming off a flight at Stansted who then want to have a seat for themselves and one for their bag...I am going to have to learn the German for 'Please use the luggage racks') - but should that be the standard that train operators are being held to?

jopsuk - by franchise specification do you mean 'so ridiculously short-term that there is no point in investing in or improving ANYTHING' (which from my point of view is the policy GA seem determined to follow).

O L Leigh - yes, I have sometimes (especially if travelling outside the peak) jumped on a Stratford train and changed at HT. What disappoints me is that Sawbridgeworth has been withdrawn from the semi-fast Cambridge trains, which seems, frankly, a backwards step all round...

Right. Off to get the 8.14. Let's hope it's not short-formed. Any further musings gratefully received!
 

47421

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Part of your frustration I think stems from the fact that when GA are short of 379s they almost always short form the 0655 LivSt - Stan Apt, 0800 return. Dont know why, perhaps that is the last set to leave Ilford depot in the morning, and is short if they dont complete maintenance on time.

This disproportionately affects Sawb commuters as you have fewer alternatives, eg BisSt pass can just wait for next train, 12 car and always with spare seats, and get to LivSt only 2 min later. And Harlow pass have Stan Exp every 15 mins in peak.

What I dont understand is why GA dont have a contingency plan to use one of the 9 units on the 3 peak 12 cars from Camb to strenghen short Stan Apt trains. Simple maths indicates that 8 into 4 is much more disruptive to passengers than 12 into 8, and those 12 car trains from Camb are not that busy, esp the third one, often half empty in rear carriages and never any standing on it. Why not run a unit from Cambridge to the airport (via Stortford to keep it right way round?), leave it in platform and couple up with short 0655 ex Liv St so 0800 and rest of trains it operates for the day are 8 car. That would improve GA's stats as well as, many fewer short form trains, as set off 0747 Camb just sits in sidings in London until working 1707 back in the evening.
 

Velocireb

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@47241 You've hit the nail on the head. This service is often short-formed, at which point it is a hideous journey, as it it filled up at Stansted Airport, and as you point out, we have no other options.

which leads me nicely to my next gripe. When GA short-form this service, I tweet them to point out how annoying it is, when it is such a busy train (I love how GA can just halve my train - I mean it's not like I can ever halve my fare in compensation...) and ask them to declassify first class.

Every. Single. Time. they respond by saying that 'only the on-board train staff can make that decision.' Now, I know, and they know I know, that by this they mean THE DRIVER. There are no other staff on board, and they KNOW this. And the driver presumably has better things to be doing then making decisions and announcements about declassifying first class (even if I could work out a way of communicating with him or her).

Why they cannot make it a policy that if a train is short-formed IN THE PEAK ONLY FC is declassified, I do not know. Well of course I DO know. They don't want to upset their precious FC customers by having us plebs pile in. But really. When a train should be 8 carriages, is chopped in half, and a quarter of that remaining half has seats that we can't use it drives me crackers.

Their twitter responses are like cryptic haikus sometimes...
 

47421

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To be fair to twitter staff, they are only allowed to say certain things, they let slip once that there is an Information Controller who prescribes what they can say.

However in this case it is misleading to say it is down to staff on train, when i queried this with a Bishops Stortford driver he told me that drivers were not permitted to declassify first, and in any case as you say it is obviously something the driver does not want to be bothered with.

Anyone with any insights into GAs thinking know why they cant short form a Camb service from 12 to 8, rather than multiple Stansted trains from 8 to 4 ?
 

Tetchytyke

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Anyone with any insights into GAs thinking know why they cant short form a Camb service from 12 to 8, rather than multiple Stansted trains from 8 to 4 ?

It's not insight, just pure cynicism, but at Cambridge they're trying to tempt people off the busy FCC trains with their shiny empty trains. At Sawbridgeworth you're a captive audience.
 

O L Leigh

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You can't take a unit from the 12 car Cambridges to strengthen the Stansteds because they are not stabled together. The units for the Cambridges are stabled at Cambridge and the Stansteds are stabled at Orient Way near Stratford.

O L Leigh
 

Velocireb

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All very interesting. I hadn't thought of GA trying to lure people on away from FCC!

What do people think the future holds for these extended platforms? Nothing till GA's franchise ends? Or nothing until stansted grows? Or no way of knowing?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
All very interesting. I hadn't thought of GA trying to lure people on away from FCC!

What do people think the future holds for these extended platforms? Nothing till GA's franchise ends? Or nothing until stansted grows? Or no way of knowing?
 

ChrisTheRef

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The 1707/1737/1807 services and their morning counterparts are very heavily loaded south of Stortford. An additional call at Sawbridgeworth would only add to crowding issues. As mentioned above, plenty of stations are just as busy and get a worse service.
 

Velocireb

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chrisTheRef - I am asking a genuine question - which stations are as busy as Sawbridgeworth but get a worse service?
 

47421

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I understand that the units for the 12 car Camb services are stabled at Camb. Third of the 12 car trains AM is not too busy at all. Got on at Stortford and had 4 seats to myself today, whereas 0800 Stansted in front of it was full and standing from Stortford with Sawb and Harlow T stops to come.

Why cant one of units for 0747 Camb be run empty to Stansted if 0655 is shortformed, so the 0800 and rest of its diagram is full strength. Set off 0747 sits Orient Way all day before forming 1707, which while busy is by no means full usually
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
On the Sawb TT generally it is clear it got a raw deal when the TT was recast in Dec 11. Stop on semifast Cambridge services withdrawn and replaced by stop on additional hourly BisStort - Straford service. So while it has same number of trains, stop on semifast service to LivSt replaced with one on very slow Stratford service.

Scope for change very limited as Lower Lea Valley so congested. Needs investment in infrastructure, but none included in recently finalised Network Rail plans for 2014-2019. If TfL chip in some money to help realise their aspiration for extra services Stratford - Angel Road / Brimsdown, inc funding for third or fourth track and extra platforms at Tott Hale, that may help, but that is 3 years plus away
 

OxtedL

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Why cant one of units for 0747 Camb be run empty to Stansted if 0655 is shortformed, so the 0800 and rest of its diagram is full strength.

Who's going to move it? I can't imagine that GA will reliably have a spare driver in Cambridge to run that ECS.
 

87015

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Who's going to move it? I can't imagine that GA will reliably have a spare driver in Cambridge to run that ECS.

Why wouldn't they? Not having a cover driver(s) there for the morning peak would be a strange decision to make.
 
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