12 car 350/1 to be tested at 110mph

[zn1]

this might sound silly - why dont LM Just order fixed formation 8 car units One Pan so they pull a bit more power off the juice wire.then u can have ya 110mph emus - as its just 2 pans up !!

 

[MCR247]

Cos then you have less flexibility don't you? Sets don't run around in 8 car formation all day, there is a lot of splitting/joining

 

[Class377/5]

this might sound silly - why dont LM Just order fixed formation 8 car units One Pan so they pull a bit more power off the juice wire.then u can have ya 110mph emus - as its just 2 pans up !!

Not a bad idea but current set up in the depot is the ability to lift 4 cars. If you did this you'd have to pay to rebuild parts of the depot to be able to work on an 8 car in the same way pushing up the price of this.

The only depot that would be able to handle an fixed formation 8 car is the new build Hornsey (which has only just got planning permission).

 

[MK Tom]

If LM are talking 110mph running then is there any hope of removing the painful 75mph speed limit between Northampton and Rugby? Speaking as someone who travels often between MKC and Stafford it seems that 95% of the percieved journey time is on that stretch because it's just fields going past really slowly and never quite having yet gone past Long Buckby. The Northampton loop is a complete disgrace compared to the rest of the WCML.

 

[Dreadnought]

If LM are talking 110mph running then is there any hope of removing the painful 75mph speed limit between Northampton and Rugby? Speaking as someone who travels often between MKC and Stafford it seems that 95% of the percieved journey time is on that stretch because it's just fields going past really slowly and never quite having yet gone past Long Buckby. The Northampton loop is a complete disgrace compared to the rest of the WCML.

Unless you can recast the LM timetable it will not make any difference except you'll probably need to spend even more time waiting at Northampton station to depart!

 

[Kingfisher200262]

Not a bad idea but current set up in the depot is the ability to lift 4 cars. If you did this you'd have to pay to rebuild parts of the depot to be able to work on an 8 car in the same way pushing up the price of this.

The only depot that would be able to handle an fixed formation 8 car is the new build Hornsey (which has only just got planning permission).

There can't be that many maintenance activities that involve lifting a unit, are there?

It can't be the case surely that most EMUs 319s, 317s, 379s etc, which spend their lives running around in 8-car formations, are split into 4-car units whenever they go to the depot.

Or is it?

 

[The Planner]

If LM are talking 110mph running then is there any hope of removing the painful 75mph speed limit between Northampton and Rugby? Speaking as someone who travels often between MKC and Stafford it seems that 95% of the percieved journey time is on that stretch because it's just fields going past really slowly and never quite having yet gone past Long Buckby. The Northampton loop is a complete disgrace compared to the rest of the WCML.

No, nothing will happen. There is passive provision for 80 or 85mph when the re-control of the line into Rugby SCC happens but that is it.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

There can't be that many maintenance activities that involve lifting a unit, are there?

It can't be the case surely that most EMUs 319s, 317s, 379s etc, which spend their lives running around in 8-car formations, are split into 4-car units whenever they go to the depot.

Or is it?

No 319s have been perminently coupled to another, few even spend an entire day as part of an 8 car train! (usually only where there is a minor fault with one or both of the units). The only time fixed formation 8 car trains ran for Thameslink was the 317s, loaned from WAGN, during the weekday peak periods and they were transferred back to Hornsey for maintenance (the 319s were maintained at Selhurst at the time), but when they came back it was often with a new partner. Cauldwell Walk depot building was not long enough for 8 car trains to be maintained when it was built, I assume that is still the case (infact I think units had to be split before entering the building as I believe there was an authourised walking route across the entrance).

 

[ChrisCooper]

Units can spend reasonable amounts of time coupled with other units, and will often remain coupled overnight at the depots. Sidings at depots will be able to take units in multiple, usually up to the maximum length that can run on the line, and this will include basic servicing like fueling, toilet emptying and cleaning, even if it requires units to move along (might for example only be facilities to extract and tank toilets on a 4 car unit, but once leading unit is done the train can move up so the next unit gets done. The issue though is maintenance, maintenance facilities are usually designed for a single unit, so if maintenance is required the unit will have to be split.

It's the same with push pull stock, they will run in pretty much fixed formation and can stop for days or even weeks without changing, but if the loco needs maintenance it will be removed and worked on seperatly, whilst another loco will go out with that set. Basic work will be done as a full set, the loco won't be detached every night.

Even London Underground used to be like that. Even though for years with the exception of a few shuttles trains have all been formed of two units, intermediate cabs or shunting equipment has been provided to allow the units to seperate for maintenance. The newest stock goes away from this, but is requiring extensive changes to depots to allow full length trains to be maintained. Hammersmith Depot on the H&C used to only be able to maintain 2 cars at a time, hence why the C stock are 2 car units.

 

[zn1]

its not beyond any depot to get some more jacks and get them synchronised to cope with an extra four cars, failing that theres a depot in west london called NORTH POLE that Siemens could always use for their heavy repairs thats empty and being wasted!!, such as code 4 bogie changes etc, for individual bogie changes im sure the siemens depots have bogie drop facilities now.
as for having full 8 car emus why not, with common sense diagramming an 8 car fleet would be easy to insert in to the heavy use jobs and still be available to run your rush hour high density services, you will also have some that are stabled during the day and at least one unit will be on planned maintenance, for arguements sake one on casualty, so your availabilty wouldnt be compromised.
just a thought

 

[ukrob]

As has already been said, it reduces flexibility too much.

 

[dooton]

North Pole's going to be the IEP depot is it not?

 

[boing_uk]

Given the power available in the 350's, would it not be possible - assuming the 3 pan tests dont prove too good of course - to run a 12 car set on just two pans and drag/propel the 3rd unit using the other two units?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Given the power available in the 350's, would it not be possible - assuming the 3 pan tests dont prove too good of course - to run a 12 car set on just two pans and drag/propel the 3rd unit using the other two units?

It would only be possible in service if 350s have a main power bus between units, otherwise one unit could be without heating, power doors, lighting, passenger displays, air-con and the P.A., which would not be allowed under DDA and probably a few other laws.

 

[Class377/5]

There can't be that many maintenance activities that involve lifting a unit, are there?

It can't be the case surely that most EMUs 319s, 317s, 379s etc, which spend their lives running around in 8-car formations, are split into 4-car units whenever they go to the depot.

Or is it?

I doubt that there would be to be honest but some would have to be done so you have to have somewhere that can deal with doing that.

its not beyond any depot to get some more jacks and get them synchronised to cope with an extra four cars, failing that theres a depot in west london called NORTH POLE that Siemens could always use for their heavy repairs thats empty and being wasted!!, such as code 4 bogie changes etc, for individual bogie changes im sure the siemens depots have bogie drop facilities now.
as for having full 8 car emus why not, with common sense diagramming an 8 car fleet would be easy to insert in to the heavy use jobs and still be available to run your rush hour high density services, you will also have some that are stabled during the day and at least one unit will be on planned maintenance, for arguements sake one on casualty, so your availabilty wouldnt be compromised.
just a thought

Having a fixed formation would mean improving a depot somewhere. Problem you have in your (sensible) option of upgrading the depot means the cost of getting the units will increase as the civils for the depot won't be cheap.

 

[T163R]

I don't think that adding 10 mph will change anything.

 

[MCR247]

It will mean a better path for the TPE /3s on the WCML north

 

[GB]

Please, please, will they run our 360 s at 110 on GEML... an hour to do 50 miles on a semi fast is not good.!!!..and how about our cl 90s 110 mph and our mk 3 125 cugging on at 100 on a good day..

That will not happen I'm afraid. The line south of Ipswich is far too congested and the line north towards Norwich has too many AHB level crossings to make it viable.

 

[jopsuk]

As far as fixed-formations go, they're common practice in Japan on commuter lines, both "metro" and longer distance.

They also have "asymmetric" formations- for instance these. In this case, the eight car unit is at the "country" end.

 

[northwichcat]

The testing routes are to include:
Weaver Junction to Preston
Winwick Junction to Golborne Junction via Earlestown
Preston to Lancaster
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...a - closing date 03 october 2011/lm 31 sa.pdf

 

[WatcherZero]

Pretty much where the TPE units will operate at 110mph?

 

[cj_1985]

could just be that its easier to get a path for testing on the north end of the WCML...

afterall... wasn't one of the mainline testing sections for the pendolino fleet on the northern end of the WCML

 

[anthony263]

This might be of interest:

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...ember 2011/lm 30 sa project 110 timetable.pdf

 

[WatcherZero]

Read a while ago but forgot to mention, the testing program is they will test the controls, computer modifications and mechanical performance of a single four car unit in the Preston area. They will then move to the southern WCML testing three coupled units to monitor power draw from overhead and pantograph performance when in multiple.

 

[jopsuk]

This might be of interest:

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...ember 2011/lm 30 sa project 110 timetable.pdf

Pretty conclusive as to what LM want out of the testing!

 

[swt_passenger]

Also note this is initially planned to be offpeak only, as they'd need more stock to run this in the peaks...

The track access application itself is also online:

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...07 LM 30th SA - closing date 04 November 2011

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I don't think that adding 10 mph will change anything.

As we can now see from the track access stuff, LM can flight two trains on the fast lines in the same slot they already have between the flights of Pendolinos. In principle this means LM could run 4 tph up the fasts rather than the 2 tph they do now. From LM's perspective, that is quite a significant improvement.

 

[Nym]

Or VT could run that extra Liverpool service flighted just infront of another off EUS service behind the LM service running at 110mph, could result in 2tph to Preston and Liverpool from Euston instead of 1tph. If only they had the stock to do this.

 

[Blindtraveler]

if Scotland to Manchester ran at 110, how much of a time saving would it be?

 

[bnsf734]

Looking at the proposed timetable the Crewe - Euston service will not run via Northampton or join with the Birmingham service. This speeds the Nuneaton - Euston journey time up by 18 minutes.

Hope this applies on a Saturday as well, and they make the trains 8 cars long.

I might get a seat then Nuneaton - London!

 

[swt_passenger]

Looking at the proposed timetable the Crewe - Euston service will not run via Northampton or join with the Birmingham service. This speeds the Nuneaton - Euston journey time up by 18 minutes.

This is why it is important to read all the documents though - because the associated track access application explains that the southbound service isn't possible, and has to run via Northampton.