0617 Dumfries to Newcastle service.

[Xenophon PCDGS]

This seems to be an "all stops" service. What units are scheduled to run this servce normally and what depot supplies them?

 

[IanXC]

This seems to be an "all stops" service. What units are scheduled to run this servce normally and what depot supplies them?

It'll be a 156 - I'm pretty sure this is a joint ScotRail and Northern working. I understand the units on these joint workings can be SR or NT, if its NT it'll be a Heaton depot unit, not sure for SR.

 

[Eng274]

It'll be a 156 - I'm pretty sure this is a joint ScotRail and Northern working. I understand the units on these joint workings can be SR or NT, if its NT it'll be a Heaton depot unit, not sure for SR.

All 156s are maintained at corkerhill, but can be stabled at other locations (I think one SR unit is stabled at heaton also)

 

[D6975]

The 0617 off Dumfries is a Scotrail working, operated by Northern Rail. It will be a unit provided by Heaton depot, so could be a 156 or a 142.
The services that work through Carlisle rather than turning round there can be operated by units off Corkerhill or Heaton. The only way to tell is by tracing the diagram through tables 48 and 216. If the unit goes to Glasgow at some point, it's a Corkerhill turn. If it doesn't, it's a Heaton turn. None of the Corkerhill turns stay away from Glasgow all day, and Heaton units don't go to Glasgow.

ps one SR unit does indeed overnight at Heaton, it works the 0647 to Glasgow the following morning.

 

[tbtc]

The 0617 off Dumfries is a Scotrail working, operated by Northern Rail. It will be a unit provided by Heaton depot, so could be a 156 or a 142

I could be wrong, but I'm not aware of any Pacers on revenue earning duty in Scotland since one was on the Bathgate line around twenty five years ago (?)

 

[sprinterguy]

I could be wrong, but I'm not aware of any Pacers on revenue earning duty in Scotland since one was on the Bathgate line around twenty five years ago (?)

I think it's been shown in the past (with a photo and everything!) that a Pacer has been deployed on this duty before, but it was either a one off occurence or it happens so infrequently that anything other than the booked 156 appearing on the service is virtually a theoretical scenario.

 

[D6975]

I could be wrong, but I'm not aware of any Pacers on revenue earning duty in Scotland since one was on the Bathgate line around twenty five years ago (?)

I've seen 142s on early morning Dumfries services many times. Many years ago it used to be 143s before they were packed off to the WR. No pacers on the early morning Dumfries the last time I was up there though, 156s both days.
Northern diagrams on table 48 seem to be a pretty random 142/156 mix, one day a service is 142 the next it's a 156. If Carlisle ends up with lots of 142s overnight, I don't suppose they'd have much choice but to send a 142 to Dumfries, crew knowledge permitting..

 

[tbtc]

I've seen 142s on early morning Dumfries services many times. Many years ago it used to be 143s before they were packed off to the WR. No pacers on the early morning Dumfries the last time I was up there though, 156s both days.
Northern diagrams on table 48 seem to be a pretty random 142/156 mix, one day a service is 142 the next it's a 156. If Carlisle ends up with lots of 142s overnight, I don't suppose they'd have much choice but to send a 142 to Dumfries, crew knowledge permitting..

Cheers - I didn't know that - I've certainly seen Pacers working the "Tyne Valley" services as far as Carlisle, but didn't realise they'd crossed the border.

 

[reb0118]

I've certainly seen Pacers working...... as far as Carlisle, but didn't realise they'd crossed the border.

Does Uncle Alex know? I'm sure this contravenes the Act of Union 1707 in some way (& if it doesn't it should). This could be ground for war or even possibly minimum pricing for Pacer fares!?!

 

[flymo]

The 06:17 ex Dumfries works the 05:27 ex Carlisle to get there (arr 06:04).

 

[Anvil1984]

I've seen 142s on early morning Dumfries services many times. Many years ago it used to be 143s before they were packed off to the WR. No pacers on the early morning Dumfries the last time I was up there though, 156s both days.
Northern diagrams on table 48 seem to be a pretty random 142/156 mix, one day a service is 142 the next it's a 156. If Carlisle ends up with lots of 142s overnight, I don't suppose they'd have much choice but to send a 142 to Dumfries, crew knowledge permitting..

Carlisle Northern Depot sign both Dumfries and 142s so presumably work the early train, anything beyond Dumfries will need Scotrail staff so no 142s (unless traction conducted)

 

[KingBBoogaloo]

This service is a Scotrail service to Carlisle and a Northern service beyond.

A Northern 156 and crew are 'hired' for the Scotrail bit, the crew and stock arrive of the 05:27 Carlisle-Dumfries which is another Scotrail service that Northern operate. While this does not prevent 142s from showing up it, Northern are penalised for not supplying the specified traction.

Likewise, Scotrail are penalised should they not provide a 156 for the Northern 'bit' of the Newcastle-South West Scotland services.

 

[bluenoxid]

This service is a Scotrail service to Carlisle and a Northern service beyond.

A Northern 156 and crew are 'hired' for the Scotrail bit, the crew and stock arrive of the 05:27 Carlisle-Dumfries which is another Scotrail service that Northern operate. While this does not prevent 142s from showing up it, Northern are penalised for not supplying the specified traction.

Likewise, Scotrail are penalised should they not provide a 156 for the Northern 'bit' of the Newcastle-South West Scotland services.

Which is going to be thin air or a 158 really.

 

[michael769]

Does Uncle Alex know? I'm sure this contravenes the Act of Union 1707 in some way (& if it doesn't it should). This could be ground for war or even possibly minimum pricing for Pacer fares!?!

When asked to comment 'Eck responded with the following statement:

"The Tory led Westminster government is entirely to blame for the continued use of Pacers. A Independent Scotland would bury any Pacers that venture over the Border at the bottom of Loch Ness!"

 

[Anvil1984]

Which is going to be thin air or a 158 really.

Yep and it can only be a 158 if crewed by Carlisle Northern staff from Carlisle to Newcastle as Newcastle don't sign them.

 

[Liam]

Yep and it can only be a 158 if crewed by Carlisle Northern staff from Carlisle to Newcastle as Newcastle don't sign them.

158's are only permitted on the GSW on ECS moves.

 

[sprinterguy]

Likewise, Scotrail are penalised should they not provide a 156 for the Northern 'bit' of the Newcastle-South West Scotland services.

I have to say, I have never seen anything else deputising for the usual 156 on the main daytime services that Scotrail provide the stock for, and I have only occasionally seen any of the G&SW services to/from Newcastle cancelled, though this would seem to be the preferred alternative if a 156 is not available.

However I have in the past seen the Strathclyde PTE liveried 156s used to deputise for an unavailable Northern unit on an out and back turn down the Durham Coast, inbetween their booked time of arrival and departure at Newcastle!

 

[transmanche]

However I have in the past seen the Strathclyde PTE liveried 156s used to deputise for an unavailable Northern unit on an out and back turn down the Durham Coast, inbetween their booked time of arrival and departure at Newcastle!

Yes - back in the day (before the T&W Metro was extended to Sunderland) Strathclyde PTE liveried 156s regularly appeared on the evening Newcastle-Sunderland service.

 

[sprinterguy]

Yes - back in the day (before the T&W Metro was extended to Sunderland) Strathclyde PTE liveried 156s regularly appeared on the evening Newcastle-Sunderland service.

At least one SPT unit has also appeared on the Durham Coast since the Metro extension opened, and the fill-in turn I was familiar with made use of the Scotrail 156 inbetween the 11am-ish arrival at Newcastle and the afternoon departure.

 

[Blindtraveler]

When asked to comment 'Eck responded with the following statement:

"The Tory led Westminster government is entirely to blame for the continued use of Pacers. A Independent Scotland would bury any Pacers that venture over the Border at the bottom of Loch Ness!"

Having I hope first run the Scottis nodding donky railtour up the GSW to Glasgow, and after a short break via Shots to Edinburgh then finally up the HML Via Fife with all proceeds to a new home for pacer bashers. i was once lucky enough to get a 142 on this turn and my day was complete to say the least!

 

[KingBBoogaloo]

Which is going to be thin air or a 158 really.

No.

Its fresh air or nothing.

Dumfries don't do discs and while Northern Carlisle crews work all but one of the Newcastle-Southwest Scotland services, sending a 158 down there is all but an operational no no.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I have to say, I have never seen anything else deputising for the usual 156 on the main daytime services that Scotrail provide the stock for, and I have only occasionally seen any of the G&SW services to/from Newcastle cancelled, though this would seem to be the preferred alternative if a 156 is not available.

The only real option to Scotrail is a 156 or cancel.

To get a 158 to Carlisle they would need a Glasgow Central crew that sign 158s and the route through Dumfries.

Considering that has not yet happened suggests it cant, not yet at least.

 

[Blindtraveler]

are 158s cleared for that route?

 

[Liam]

are 158s cleared for that route?

ECS only.

 

[ainsworth74]

ECS only.

Forgive me but how can stock be cleared for ECS only?

 

[MCR247]

To do with the doors or something? Or the steps?

 

[ainsworth74]

To do with the doors or something? Or the steps?

Ahh yes isn't that the issue with using them on the WHL? I guess that would make sense actually.

 

[Blindtraveler]

there will come a time when I guess 158s/170s will need to be utilised on iether or both these runs but theyl put it off as long as due to costs I suppose.

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

Noticing this thread I wondered whether anyone could kindly give me some info about the current state of the old G&SW route - I'm heading up to Fort William for my first 'Jacobite' experience and was wondering about taking a trip on this line on the way back(to N. Wales) - last time I did so was as a 10 yr old with my Dad on the 'Thames-Clyde' Express in Oct 1965 (and it was steam following a diesel failure!)....I suppose it is very much a secondary route nowadays!