• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

1970-1974 WCML Weaver Jct -Glasgow electrification

Magdalia

Established Member
Joined
1 Jan 2022
Messages
7,293
Location
The Fens
Well, Deltics had been passed for 100 mph on the ECML since 1962, and there were certainly a fair few of those going over the border each day even then.
When the Deltics were new, they did not have any 100mph track to run on, the fastest bits of the ECML were 90mph.

1964 was when the first 100mph section was introduced - a 17 mile section between Grantham and Stoke Tunnel,
I think this should be Peterborough and Stoke Tunnel in 1965? Grantham and Stoke Tunnel are less than 5 miles apart.

17 miles suggests that the southern end was probably Helpston.

the upgrading of Peterborough
This was in 1973, only just before the completion of WCML electrification. Peterborough is particularly significant because previously the speed limit there had been 20mph. Peterborough got the Flying Scotsman journey time doen to 5h30m.

But I still find it surprising the BRB didn't push the ScR on this more in the 60s. I can imagine Mr Fiennes was not impressed with the ScR's policy slowing his ER expresses.
It isn't surprising. There were only 5 daytime trains going to and from Scotland.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

hexagon789

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Sep 2016
Messages
18,282
Location
Glasgow
I think this should be Peterborough and Stoke Tunnel in 1965? Grantham and Stoke Tunnel are less than 5 miles apart.

17 miles suggests that the southern end was probably Helpston.
I will recheck my Modern Railways when I get a chance shortly. I may have misread it - but I'm fairly sure '17 miles', 'Grantham' and 'Stoke' all featured in the piece about 100mph.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

This was in 1973, only just before the completion of WCML electrification. Peterborough is particularly significant because previously the speed limit there had been 20mph. Peterborough got the Flying Scotsman journey time doen to 5h30m.
The upgrade work there was particularly impressive in my opinion, in terms of the very large increase in permissible speed for fast trains.
 

D6130

Established Member
Joined
12 Jan 2021
Messages
8,924
Location
West Yorkshire/Tuscany
I will recheck my Modern Railways when I get a chance shortly. I may have misread it - but I'm fairly sure '17 miles', 'Grantham' and 'Stoke' all featured in the piece about 100mph.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


The upgrade work there was particularly impressive in my opinion, in terms of the very large increase in permissible speed for fast trains.
IIRC, prior to the 1973 remodelling, the straight lines avoiding Peterborough station were permissively-signalled freight only lines....and all passenger trains - whether stopping or not - had to weave through what are now platforms 2 & 3 at a maximum speed of 20 mph.
 

Magdalia

Established Member
Joined
1 Jan 2022
Messages
7,293
Location
The Fens
The upgrade work there was particularly impressive in my opinion, in terms of the very large increase in permissible speed for fast trains.

IIRC, prior to the 1973 remodelling, the straight lines avoiding Peterborough station were permissively-signalled freight only lines....and all passenger trains - whether stopping or not - had to weave through what are now platforms 2 & 3 at a maximum speed of 20 mph.
The Peterborough remodelling is a bit off topic, but it illustrates the contrasting approaches on the WCML and ECML. Here are 2 signal box diagrams that show the old layout of the GN lines. The Midland lines are not shown, these went through roughly where platforms 6 and 7 are now.



The main lines went through what are now platforms 1 and 2 at Peterborough (these were previously platforms 2 and 3 but renumbered about 10 years ago when the old platform 1 bay was taken out).

The old freight lines were not straight either, part of the old island platform (which was wide to accommodate the north end bays) had to be demolished to make way for the new alignment of the fast lines.
 

WesternLancer

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Apr 2019
Messages
14,947
Just spotted this thread, and I've been reading the posts with interest. I have nothing particular to add in a technical sense, but it does evoke some memories that I'll share. It's quite funny reflecting on them now, as an enthusiast.

My aunt and uncle were the stewards at Glengonnar school camp in Abington, where kids from Glasgow, who wouldn't otherwise get a holiday, would be sent for a holiday in the Clyde Valley.

I was only a little 'un back then {10 or so}, but I remember my older cousin, on one visit to see my aunt and uncle, taking me up the hill to Abington station where we would watch the trains.......and this was long before I had any interest in railways.

He liked the fast passenger trains, while I liked the noisier clanking freight trains. I can remember what must have been pairs of Cl 50s that he was most excited about, but I don't really remember much about the freights except the noise.

Then I remember one visit, and there was suddenly lots of work going on, and my uncle explained the line was being electrified and that the diesels would be replaced by faster electric trains soon. I remember being really upset to hear this, as I thought my favourite trains would disappear!

I remember the work going on for quite a few family visits to uncle Bill and Auntie Irene's with masts and wires appearing, and lots of diggers and earthworks, which I guess must have been the loop being constructed or lengthened? (I was young enough to be entertained by the earth moving vehicles in between trains!). But the trains were still all diesels, so it was still just as good as always.....and sometimes there was an engineering train there as well.....and I recall there being a loco at both ends of those (on reflection, probably 20s?)

Then, one visit, which I now know must have been in 1974, I saw my first electric train pass Abington. I have no idea what class or on what service it was, but I do recall very vividly that I wasn't disappointed with the new electric trains at all! And my freight trains were still exactly the same! So for the 10 year old kid that was just beginning to like trains, WCML electrification was a win-win!

Then, over the Christmas holidays that year, Abington was often the venue for big family gatherings, so we were all there one day between Christmas and New year. It's pitch dark by 4pm there at that time of year, and my cousin said he had something to show me outside. He walked me down about 500m past all the empty dorm huts down to the banks of the Clyde where there was an uninterrupted view of the line on the opposite side down towards Crawford and Elvanfoot and with not much light pollution (the A74, as was, much much quieter then!).......and that was where I gasped in amazement when I saw my first arcing pantograph.....and how much of the countryside it illuminated. I was enormously excited about this at that age, and my Uncle Jimmy explained this phenomenon to me in great detail later on with the aid of a napkin drawing at our Christmas dinner table!

I thought of that moment about 6 years later in the front coach of an overnight service behind a 83, as the sparking panto illuminated the Clyde valley......the novelty never left me......!

I didn't become a proper enthusiast until I was inluenced by new school friends in 1978, when I was old enough to appreciate it better, but a pair of 50s northbound on the climb up Beattock must have been epic thrash value!
Great post! really enjoyed reading these memories.
Nicely written IMHO

I grew up in 3rd rail land - I recall occasions when it was snowy and icy with flashes from the 3rd rail lighting up the night which on a dark night could be seen some distance from the tracks nearest my home - such tracks not being in sight.
 

70014IronDuke

Established Member
Joined
13 Jun 2015
Messages
4,067
1964 was when the first 100mph section was introduced - a 17 mile section between Grantham and Stoke Tunnel, but between then and the upgrading of Peterborough (to permit 100, later 105mph through the station on the fast lines), 80% of the ECML to Newcastle would be steadily upgraded and passed for 100mph.
Yes, apologies - that was sloppy of me. Deltics, of course, were 100 mph max, but that didn't mean any of the route was ok for 100 mph in 1962.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

It isn't surprising. There were only 5 daytime trains going to and from Scotland.

Well, they weren't 'any old trains' - they were 10 of BR's 'finest' inter-city flagships. (And have you counted The 'North Briton'?) So, for many years after 100 mph was being achieved south of Newcastle, they were stuck at 75 mph north of Berwick. And on the West Coast, ditto north of Gretna.

I suppose it just shows how much it cost, even then, to raise line speeds, unless you could package the upgrade with electrification and resignalling.
 
Last edited:

Solweytracker

Member
Joined
10 Oct 2020
Messages
48
Location
UK
..... And my freight trains were still exactly the same! ......
My memory is that most of the freight trains would be the same but often the power up front was different.

I haven't checked my logs from the time but IIRC quite a lot of freight, parcels and newspaper trains got handed over to the early electric classes 81-85 (some of which were not reliable), which had been demoted from passenger workings by the class 86s, and the class 87s specifically introduced for the northern WCML electrification. This started before the official passenger launch of May 1974. Freights such as the Wallerscote -Larbert soda ash and the Hardendale - Ravenscraig limestone services (mentioned earlier in the thread) spring to mind, but some general wagonload and freightliner ones were as well. There were a lot of traction changes at Kingmoor Yard and Carlisle station. There were both rows of diesels and dedicated lines of electrics stabled at the Fuelling & Inspection depot (F & I) in the yard.

Later on there was a highly efficient 24 hour use of the class 87s by diagramming on intensive cross-border passenger services during the day and sleepers and doubleheaded freightliners at night. I believe the train controllers had a cross-border electric loco parity balance to avoid a lop-sided situation where too many were at one end of the line.
 

Merle Haggard

Established Member
Joined
20 Oct 2019
Messages
3,850
Location
Northampton
Yes, apologies - that was sloppy of me. Deltics, of course, were 100 mph max, but that didn't mean any of the route was ok for 100 mph in 1962.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


/snip

As an aside, I can remember an item on television news about the increase in speed to 100mph. It was, I clearly remember, illustrated by film of a 100 'cutout' speed sign.

Slightly illogical because I thought speed signs were placed on PSRs, where there was a stretch of line with a speed overall linespeed.


My memory is that most of the freight trains would be the same but often the power up front was different.

I haven't checked my logs from the time but IIRC quite a lot of freight, parcels and newspaper trains got handed over to the early electric classes 81-85 (some of which were not reliable), which had been demoted from passenger workings by the class 86s, and the class 87s specifically introduced for the northern WCML electrification. This started before the official passenger launch of May 1974. Freights such as the Wallerscote -Larbert soda ash and the Hardendale - Ravenscraig limestone services (mentioned earlier in the thread) spring to mind, but some general wagonload and freightliner ones were as well. There were a lot of traction changes at Kingmoor Yard and Carlisle station. There were both rows of diesels and dedicated lines of electrics stabled at the Fuelling & Inspection depot (F & I) in the yard.

Later on there was a highly efficient 24 hour use of the class 87s by diagramming on intensive cross-border passenger services during the day and sleepers and doubleheaded freightliners at night. I believe the train controllers had a cross-border electric loco parity balance to avoid a lop-sided situation where too many were at one end of the line.

For the older AC locos, there were two sets of diagrams - one for 81 & 85, the other for 82/3/4.
As another aside, the 'Cobbler' trains were diagrammed for '82/3/4' which might seem very attractive - but I quite liked to get home before bedtime so it was lost on me ...
 

d9009alycidon

Member
Joined
22 Jun 2011
Messages
980
Location
Eaglesham
There was a daytime Crewe-Perth working which stopped at Motherwell mid-afternoon. During the daytime WCML closure, it was diverted via the G&SW and terminated at Glasgow Central with a connecting service to Perth (usually a DMU) via the Rutherglen & Coatbridge line. One of our number here @d9009alycidon tells of trying to buy a Central-Perth ticket to be told repeatedly that there wasn’t such a train until the timetable was shown to them!

The memory of buying a ticket was to go to Coatbridge Central, they still didn't believe me after being shown the timetable! Yes indeed, that connecting service was formed by a three car class 101 Met-Cammell D.M.U. and one of three single car Gloucester R.C.& W. class 122's, no's SC55013-SC55015 which had been internally stripped for parcels traffic and reclassified as class 131. It ran vi's the Rutherglen and Carmyle Line, which at that time was freight only. Whether the parcels traffic was the main reason for running the train or there was a statutory obligation I do not know, as, not surprisingly, it was not well patronized by passengers from the South who probably found it more convenient to cross to Queen Street.
Other memories of the few months before full electric services being introduced were going to Motherwell in the evening as there would be new class 87s in the weighs sidings behind the Hamilton Platforms waiting to take over the Southbound Coatbridge freightliners at Dalziel loop. The very last part of the line to be energised was the Eglinton Street Tunnels due to delays with the paved track in the tunnels. The West side of the Cathcart Circle was upgraded to 25kVa to allow test trains to run into Central
 

Falcon1200

Established Member
Joined
14 Jun 2021
Messages
6,496
Location
Neilston, East Renfrewshire
Later on there was a highly efficient 24 hour use of the class 87s by diagramming on intensive cross-border passenger services during the day and sleepers and doubleheaded freightliners at night.

During my time at Mossend TOPS Office (1987-89) I sometimes got a lift home after the night shift on the electric locos which ran light to Polmadie for daytime passenger workings. No longer needed so much however after the introduction of DVTs (Driving Van Trailers).
 

jfollows

Established Member
Joined
26 Feb 2011
Messages
10,075
Location
Wilmslow
As an aside, I can remember an item on television news about the increase in speed to 100mph. It was, I clearly remember, illustrated by film of a 100 'cutout' speed sign.

Slightly illogical because I thought speed signs were placed on PSRs, where there was a stretch of line with a speed overall linespeed.
There was a "100" cutout at Edgeley Junction after the Buxton branch, and an "85" after Cheadle Hulme on the Macclesfield line back in the day, both indicating full line speed but also where it commenced. The "100" got moved towards Cheadle Hulme for signal sighting reasons (I believe) in due course. There was definitely a policy of indicating full line speed. Now there's a "110" somewhere after Edgeley and the "85" has increased over time.
 

CW2

Established Member
Joined
7 May 2020
Messages
2,216
Location
Crewe
As an aside, I can remember an item on television news about the increase in speed to 100mph. It was, I clearly remember, illustrated by film of a 100 'cutout' speed sign.

Slightly illogical because I thought speed signs were placed on PSRs, where there was a stretch of line with a speed overall linespeed.




For the older AC locos, there were two sets of diagrams - one for 81 & 85, the other for 82/3/4.
As another aside, the 'Cobbler' trains were diagrammed for '82/3/4' which might seem very attractive - but I quite liked to get home before bedtime so it was lost on me ...
In my experience classes 81-85 were all diagrammed together, with no separate diagrams for classes 82-84. Of course the loco controllers were aware of the frailties of classes 82-84, and would avoid allocating them to long-distance passenger services.
 

jfollows

Established Member
Joined
26 Feb 2011
Messages
10,075
Location
Wilmslow
For the older AC locos, there were two sets of diagrams - one for 81 & 85, the other for 82/3/4.
As another aside, the 'Cobbler' trains were diagrammed for '82/3/4' which might seem very attractive - but I quite liked to get home before bedtime so it was lost on me ...
The "Cobbler" services ran to an E455 timing load, indicated for classes 81-85 in the working timetable, which ordinarily would have limited them to something like 315 tonnes to maintain the schedule, but were noted as being allowed to run with 455 tonnes. All in all this implied that their locomotives were well thrashed, especially if they were classes 82-84. I'm glad - I think - to say that by the time I used them they had 86s; I had my time with the earlier classes in earlier years.
 

matchmaker

Established Member
Joined
8 Mar 2009
Messages
1,868
Location
Central Scotland
I'm very hazy on the this but I thought that the Scottish Region had a Regional speed limit of around 75 mph until about 1970 - explains the speeds on the Anglo-Scottiish routes
Yes, as soon as you reached the regional boundary (Marshall Meadows on the ECML and 7 miles 78 chains on the WCML) the speed limit immediately changed by 15mph!
 

70014IronDuke

Established Member
Joined
13 Jun 2015
Messages
4,067
Amazing to think today of 86/87 hauled Limestone trains between Hardendale Quarry (between Penrith and Oxenholme) and Ravenscraig, plus the steel traffic South from Ravenscraig behind double-headed 86s/87s. That's before the huge variety of loco-hauled passenger services (stock/destinations) compared to today's Avanti Pendolinos and TPE 397s effectively just running Euston-Scotland (approx half via Birmingham) or Liverpool/Manchester-Glasgow/Edinburgh plus the two Sleepers each way.
One of the problems that quickly appeared after the juice was turned on north of Preston was with double-headed freightliner trains at night. I forget if they used the 86s or - more likely - the earlier classes. Fact was the connections for working in multiple had been removed, so they could only work with both locos crewed. If the pantograph was at the back end of the leading loco, crews in the second electric complained that the arcing was causing them real difficulties with eyesight, and that it was a safety issue because of signal sighting. I had myself sent over to report on this, and indeed, it was uncomfortable. I don't know what the solution was as I moved on, probably had to turn the front loco if necessary, I suspect. Doubt they restored the jumper system, but maybe someone here knows?
 

TheHovisKid

Member
Joined
9 Sep 2008
Messages
303
Location
Heysham
Later on there was a highly efficient 24 hour use of the class 87s by diagramming on intensive cross-border passenger services during the day and sleepers and doubleheaded freightliners at night. I believe the train controllers had a cross-border electric loco parity balance to avoid a lop-sided situation where too many were at one end of the line.
Yes, you'd see them heading north through Lancaster mid afternoon, and heading south with a friend later on.

I mean, you could try hooking a 390 on the front of a 'liner, but it's not going to fit in the loops anywhere...
 

Magdalia

Established Member
Joined
1 Jan 2022
Messages
7,293
Location
The Fens
In my experience classes 81-85 were all diagrammed together, with no separate diagrams for classes 82-84. Of course the loco controllers were aware of the frailties of classes 82-84, and would avoid allocating them to long-distance passenger services.
Classes 83 and 84 went into store in the late 1960s, and returned to traffic in the early 1970s, ready for the Weaver Junction-Glasgow electrification.
 

43096

On Moderation
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
18,726
One of the problems that quickly appeared after the juice was turned on north of Preston was with double-headed freightliner trains at night. I forget if they used the 86s or - more likely - the earlier classes. Fact was the connections for working in multiple had been removed, so they could only work with both locos crewed.
Fact? None of the AC electrics had multiple working kit prior to the Class 87s being built, so it was impossible for the equipment to be removed as it was never fitted! Classes 81-85 never had any sort of multiple working equipment, while the 86/0/3/4s were fitted in a programme through the 1970s and early 1980s to allow them to multi (including with an 87). Ultimately, fitting of TDM in the late 1980s to all of Classes 86 and 87 gave all those two classes multi-working capability.
 

jfollows

Established Member
Joined
26 Feb 2011
Messages
10,075
Location
Wilmslow
I think it’s a good book, but sadly just about anything written subsequently by the same author was not good, I remember “complaining’” to the publisher about something I can myself no longer remember but was complete nonsense. We all pass our sell by date.
 

McRhu

Member
Joined
14 Oct 2015
Messages
663
Location
Lanark
Talking of the wiring between Motherwell and Newton (and hence to GLC via Kirkhill, etc,) on the WCML section, this was originally wired with compound catenary to accommodate potentially higher speeds (the 303's being limited to 75mph). Was this done in anticipation of the Weaver Junction extension?
 
Joined
5 Aug 2015
Messages
869
Location
Norfolk
Talking of the wiring between Motherwell and Newton (and hence to GLC via Kirkhill, etc,) on the WCML section, this was originally wired with compound catenary to accommodate potentially higher speeds (the 303's being limited to 75mph). Was this done in anticipation of the Weaver Junction extension?
Is this the mysterious "Mark 2" overhead line design? Or is that on another line?
 

Ploughman

Established Member
Joined
15 Jan 2010
Messages
3,097
Location
Near where the 3 ridings meet
In 1973 or 74 6 of us caught the train from Preston to Carlisle with double 50's on the front. Fantastic trip.
Once in Carlisle we met up with another member who had just bought an ex Portsmouth Open top Double decker from a dealer in Glasgow.
Of course We had to ride upstairs in the open, actually the warmest seats were the 2 at the front. Oh i forgot to mention it was mid february.
I think all the rest of the traffic must have thought we were nuts, well we were but plenty of waves and horns.
Eventually we made it home to Steamport Southport, frozen stiff.
 

Beebman

Member
Joined
17 Feb 2011
Messages
962
Location
Twyford
Talking of the wiring between Motherwell and Newton (and hence to GLC via Kirkhill, etc,) on the WCML section, this was originally wired with compound catenary to accommodate potentially higher speeds (the 303's being limited to 75mph). Was this done in anticipation of the Weaver Junction extension?
I’ve wondered that too. The masts on that section were originally numbered in miles from Glasgow Central but were renumbered in km from Euston when the electrification from Weaver Jct took place. (It was definitely Mark 1 type OHLE.)
 

Taunton

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Aug 2013
Messages
12,218
Later on there was a highly efficient 24 hour use of the class 87s by diagramming on intensive cross-border passenger services during the day and sleepers and doubleheaded freightliners at night.
This was no different to what had long been done on the ECML at night with Deltics, where after the daytime services it was straight onto sleepers, mail, etc back where they had come from. Depending on how they were doing (starting with how many were in Doncaster works) they could do the 0800 Kings Cross to Edinburgh, refuel at Haymarket, back on the 1600 Edinburgh to Kings Cross, and a quick shunt release there, and another refuel in the adjacent yard could get them on the last of the sleepers back to Edinburgh. Changing over to faster and quick turnround HSTs didn't really improve unit miles per day, as they didn't run overnight.
Other memories of the few months before full electric services being introduced were going to Motherwell in the evening as there would be new class 87s in the weighs sidings behind the Hamilton Platforms waiting to take over the Southbound Coatbridge freightliners at Dalziel loop. The very last part of the line to be energised was the Eglinton Street Tunnels due to delays with the paved track in the tunnels. The West side of the Cathcart Circle was upgraded to 25kVa to allow test trains to run into Central
I did go to Motherwell at much the same time, and recall in that exact siding on the west side of the Hamilton platforms there was a line of otherwise rarely seen Class 82-84, I don't recall which, there, which I took to just be stored pending the electrification completion. Never occurred to me they would be off in use in the evening.
 

ChiefPlanner

Established Member
Joined
6 Sep 2011
Messages
8,308
Location
Herts
An excellent tome - even if the headspan diagram is missing. I don't think the excitement of the WCML Weaver Junction - Glasgow electrification (not forgetting the already wired MK I section between Motherwell and Newton) has ever been equalled since.
I still have a ticket wallet publicising the opening - "close your eyes and you are almost there" - the Electric Scots - was very much a morale booster for the railway at the time.

One of BR's cunning moves at some time , was running an IC set empty from Polmadie to Ayr, thence to Glasgow Central to form a quality commuter service in one direction only ! (try doing that these days !)
 

Taunton

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Aug 2013
Messages
12,218
Talking of the wiring between Motherwell and Newton (and hence to GLC via Kirkhill, etc,) on the WCML section, this was originally wired with compound catenary to accommodate potentially higher speeds (the 303's being limited to 75mph). Was this done in anticipation of the Weaver Junction extension?
Was the main line direct from Motherwell to Newton electrified for the Blue Trains in 1960? I did believe only the loop round through Bellshill was done until 1974.
 

D6130

Established Member
Joined
12 Jan 2021
Messages
8,924
Location
West Yorkshire/Tuscany
I still have a ticket wallet publicising the opening - "close your eyes and you are almost there" - the Electric Scots - was very much a morale booster for the railway at the time.

One of BR's cunning moves at some time , was running an IC set empty from Polmadie to Ayr, thence to Glasgow Central to form a quality commuter service in one direction only ! (try doing that these days !)
Fast forward another few years to the mid-1980s and there was an Ayr-Glasgow-Euston InterCity commuter working in both directions on Mondays to Fridays. The 0745 Ayr-Glasgow Central formed the 09 10 to Euston....and the 11 45 from Euston formed the 17 26 to Ayr.
Was the main line direct from Motherwell to Newton electrified for the Blue Trains in 1960? I did believe only the loop round through Bellshill was done until 1974.
No, the original South Side electrification - completed in 1961 terminated at Kirkhill. The route from there to Newton and Motherwell via Douglas Park - the WCML - followed in 1963, with - as @McRhu days - compound catenary provided for future higher speed running. Uddingston-Bellshill-Holytown-Law Junction and Newton-Hamilton-Motherwell-Mossend together with their connecting spurs and the Shieldmuir Loop, were electrified as part of the WCML in 1974.
 

Top