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Trains all at a stand in the Manchester area... (Thursday afternoon 06AUG2026)

Nicholas Lewis

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As a point of detail (see under) two of them came from the same substation(!) But if it was a fault at a higher voltage two miles away then bringing a truly independent supply from a different s/stn might have been disproportionally expensive. And wouldn't have helped anyway as it was back on supply in 90 secs, which ought to have been covered by the UPS. Some press reports have it that the backup generator failed to start but it seems to me the original problem lay in the UPS not taking over to begin with.
Umm not sure I'd call that three independently sourced supplies hence my query as to whether one was derived from the 25kV system. Anyhow it should all have been invisible to the signallers as the signalling/telecoms equipment should be fed through a UPS at all times thats what makes it uninterruptible. A centre of this size should also have duplicated UPSs to support key building services and the SSI racks would have their own dedicated supplies.

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Something like that. It's been said upthread that it is usual to require manual intervention to switch back to the mains, in case it is out of spec or not stable. To my mind this is not entirely sensible once the battery is about to give out, if the generator is not available there is not much to lose.
This is all automated in a facility like this with generators not really needing anything more than a no volt relay to initiate the starting sequence and when the output is stable are automatically connected to the load without any human intervention. In the intervening period the UPS batteries are carrying the load and they should be sized for max load for at least 10 minutes duration but individual equipment like telecoms will have 4hrs from recollection.
 
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The Planner

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You are right about the maths, but NR has generally to date largely been driven by other objectives that their Boards are put up to by the S&T function ... such as 'eliminating legacy signals by 20xx' or 'getting y ROCs in place by 20zz'. In particular, their processes are not very good at balancing capital and operating expenditure.... For the most part the BR-installed relay-based signals of the 70s and 80s are life-expired (or worse) so their priorities are (correctly) often around methodically getting rid of them.

Is a major factor with this incident the famous Ansaldo Track Counters? Controversial at the time they were put in on the Manchester South scheme and took some considerable effort (I seem to recall) to get reliable....
All the Ansaldo stuff goes next year.
 

sharpener

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This is all automated in a facility like this with generators not really needing anything more than a no volt relay to initiate the starting sequence and when the output is stable are automatically connected to the load without any human intervention.

I was talking about the switch back to mains not being automatic for reasons explained by a previous poster.
 

ic31420

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They probably do but it is a classic in the IT world that generators get tested quite often but then one or more things happen to cause the test to be meaningless:

1. They don't do an actual switchover - just see that the generators start and never apply load
2. They have used nearly all the fuel in testing and when needed in anger there is none / little left - stop laughing there at the back as it happens all to often.

I work in medium sized building which has essential services and equipment.

The backup generators have steadily been improved over the last 15 years, we now have two diesels, two fuel tanks, we have gone from having a battery ups on just the Comms/Server room to a few other circuits but not everything. I believe the batteries will last 30mins

This means that in the event of a power failure servers and Comms are maintained along with a few essential user terminals. Others are lost while the generators power up and spool up, load then gets added to them over the next minute or so. Lighting switches to emergency.

Fuel supplies are tested regularly by a bloke who has a lab setup in is van (also tests our bunkered road fuel too). Our onsite buildings guy checks fuel levels (and other things) daily and has a log sheet. Not only are they bothered about fuel for power were pretty close to a river so are concerned about leaks, even though the tanks are double bunded.

The system is tested quarterly with run ups and switchgear tested and annually the building is run from generators for a day with staff being warned about the loss of power possibilities.


A good few years ago we suffered a power failure while the backup was offline having an oil change (I think) as I recall and thus wasn't available. This prompted the installation of the second engine. According to the specialist engineer a power failure with the backup switched out had happened to him 3 times on his career before.


In the event of power failures the backup will run until the contractor comes and handles the switch over back to mains having conducted checks.


From being involved in usergroups I think the whole job is outsourced with anything being possible for a price.
I think there are back up panels. They are however in York, which was not accessible by train from Manchester due to this very incident…

We have an alternate emergency suite in a partner's building that was for many years kept literally under plastic wraps.

Since covid they've started encouraging us to use it occasionally on an ad-hoc basis to give it some use and find the problems (one that has emerged is the lamps for the lights are no longer available) and the computers weren't getting the latest updates.

Tell that to all the stranded passengers tonight.

This is nothing short of an actual PR disaster for the railway industry. I'm guessing today tens, if not hundreds of thousands of people's journeys have been impacted and many will be claiming back the full amount given the length of delays. There's no excuses for this, build in enough redundancy.

Those will be the same passengers complaining about ticket price rises... This redundancy has to be paid for.
 
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RJ

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Not sure what your point is. The TOCs have no control over whether suppliers are compliant or not in terms of PSVAR or the newer PSVAIR. They will just use third parties to aggregate them.

They can specify that the aggregator procures buses that comply with these though.
 

Brush 4

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It's not the passengers concern why something happens, complaints are justified. Redundancy should have been there already, still not the passengers concern. They are not involved in any way. They expect something to do what it is supposed to do, that is the extent of their involvement, as customers. Easy to lose sight of that.
 

AndrewE

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They can specify that the aggregator procures buses that comply with these though.
but if the number requested don't physically exist (within reasonable reach of the area)?
 

GordonT

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It's not the passengers concern why something happens, complaints are justified. Redundancy should have been there already, still not the passengers concern. They are not involved in any way. They expect something to do what it is supposed to do, that is the extent of their involvement, as customers. Easy to lose sight of that.
The sheer geographical scale and the lengthy duration and extent of disruption would have been an eyeopener for a great many "normals". Almost reminiscent of parts of the TV drama series Nightsleeper whose plot centred on a cyber-attack on the UK rail network.
 

Confused52

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If it helps the DNO fault information says that power was restored to the ROC feed at 1341. If someone can tell when the signalling states will have been lost based on train movements on RTT it should be possible to see if the UPS carried on after the 1340 (according to NR) loss of power. If movements still occurred after say 1255 the UPS stood up and the subsequent problem was that the backup generator failed. RTT suggests to me that some equipment failures occurred to delay trains differently in various directions. Eg it looks as if up and down to longsight were differently affected. The comms gear used by RTT probably only glitched for 90s and so the resulting data may be vaild.
 

ic31420

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It's not the passengers concern why something happens, complaints are justified. Redundancy should have been there already, still not the passengers concern. They are not involved in any way. They expect something to do what it is supposed to do, that is the extent of their involvement, as customers. Easy to lose sight of that.

As a passenger, or a customer, or a MOP or Taxpayer I also recognise that you have to accept that things will go wrong despite even the best endeavours. Be it a component failure, be it human error, weather, third party influence or just where compromises have to be made.

It's how you recover that counts. No amount of making good, apologising or compensation ever makes the "bad thing" not have happened.

The same principle applies to travel, a faulty new phone or something incorrectly shipped.

Yes we need to understand the failure here but remember someone somewhere is balancing risk against cost or at least available funds or rather were those funds are best spent.

In terms of recovery or dealing with the issues we have to again be realistic. We can't expect all trains just to start rolling again instantly. We simply can't expect all staff to have the answer to every passengers question instantly. Simply disseminating the information from control to control will take time, then further making sense of sharing the relevent bits to the relevent people on the ground takes time, they then have to read comprehend and turn that into something that will make sense to the people in front of them.


It may well be that in cases like this, even the very best customer service that can be sensibly provided will not satisfy people. The public are very rarely satisfied with a honest "we don't know yet" these days... Possibly a symptom of today's "instant world".

I suppose an engineer could spend 10mins getting on with fixing the problem or 15mins explaining to the press office or internal comms what the issue is and that at this time there is no ETA to fix it because they can't investigate as they're chatting to them.
 

hwl

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but nobody has explained or even hinted at how a power outage and restoration has fried things to the extent that "certain parts" needed replacing... It will be interesting to read what actually happened!
It should just be circuit breaker or switch gear that good cooked (effectively doing their job instead of more expensive stuff getting cooked).
There are 2x 132kV and at least 1x 33kV DNO substations closer to the cable fault location hence it is extremely likely that the 2x 6.6kV feeds for the ROC will have been fed via at least some of those and the fault was on much higher voltage cable supplying one of those (probably a 132kV cable from the NG bulk supply point circa a mile beyond the cable fault).
In this case there could have been a flood of signals as the supply returned as a large number of track side supplies may have been lost.
Highly likely that this was the case for stuff east of Man Vic.
I don't think it can be something like overvoltage leading to equipment failure as no-one else seems to have reported damage. It's a bit odd though that I can't find any trace of a press release on the SPENW web site since it has been quoted by the BBC.
Given SPEWN's comment on a cable fault an under voltage (close to threshold) on single phase is more likely. There were also comments on Thursday about the power supply in general not being stable after restoration. Hence switching back to an unstable mains supply and damaging switchgear or protection devices would be a likely outcome.
or wasn't properly configured to switch back to the mains electricity when it came back (especially if as suggested a generator wasn't operating). I wonder if there was bad configuration and it kept trying the generator rather than switching back automatically to the restored mains
Switching from a good balanced 3 phase from the generator to an unbalanced mains (e.g. 2 good + 1 struggling phase e.g. lower volts and unusual waveform) is good recipe for stuff going wrong. [I've seen this one before when an EA contractor repairing a flood defence damaged a DNO cable causing issues on just a single phase, it took a lot of effort to work out what was going on. The net result was 3 phase equipment playing up at times of day then the local loads were high]
My experience in a rural area (not that it is at 6.6kV) is that once the supply is restored it remains OK. Even a 5kVA domestic system will automatically re-synchronise and switch back without a glitch so it can be done.
Experience - presumably with single phase supply? Single phase is much simple to deal with when thing have gone wrong!
 

LNW-GW Joint

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All the Ansaldo stuff goes next year.
It's ironic the Ansaldo stuff is being replaced after only 25 years, while the more-than-a-century-old stuff adjacent soldiers on!
The "Stockport 5" AB boxes have been modernised more than once though, and I think the lineside kit is fully modern.
I also think Manchester South was at one time expected to control the Macclesfield line and the WCML between Crewe and Weaver Jn.
 

marko2

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I one visited a data center, they sure believe and test that their yacht-engined generators be up and full load in 30s-1min with the immediate load running on batteries. And some of the newer models can deliver (tho dirty) power in 10s tops

And note that that kind of MW+ power producing generators are kept warm with block heaters, and everything is load tested on a schedule.

Now failure can happen obviously
Discussions above mention DNO supplies and Generators in the singular. Tier IV data centres will have 2N or 2N+1 for both DNO supplies and generators, and dual independent power feeding for all equipment. The workload is also typically active-active in at least two independent data centres, so even if you did suffer a catastrophic loss, you can recover.
There's no technically good reason for not implementing this in a ROC - but it may be matter of cost-benefit: As others will no doubt point out, it's rather more difficult to do this with the operations function of a signalling centre (e.g. specifically qualified people).
 
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sharpener

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Experience - presumably with single phase supply? Single phase is much simple to deal with when thing have gone wrong!
Still get repercussions of three phase faults though. On one occasion we had serious overvoltage that was said by DNO to be an imbalance caused by a neutral fault at a higher voltage level. We were away and came back to a failed solar inverter, it was replaced under warranty or I would have pursued with DNO.
 

hwl

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Still get repercussions of three phase faults though. On one occasion we had serious overvoltage that was said by DNO to be an imbalance caused by a neutral fault at a higher voltage level. We were away and came back to a failed solar inverter, it was replaced under warranty or I would have pursued with DNO.
Neutral faults are another harder to spot issue that DNOs will have to face up to resolving on ageing local infrastructure, it won't be the fault in this case though!
 
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If it helps the DNO fault information says that power was restored to the ROC feed at 1341. If someone can tell when the signalling states will have been lost based on train movements on RTT it should be possible to see if the UPS carried on after the 1340 (according to NR) loss of power. If movements still occurred after say 1255 the UPS stood up and the subsequent problem was that the backup generator failed. RTT suggests to me that some equipment failures occurred to delay trains differently in various directions. Eg it looks as if up and down to longsight were differently affected. The comms gear used by RTT probably only glitched for 90s and so the resulting data may be vaild.

From RTT it appears that the wheels came off at 13.40, the same time as the power outage. What that tells us I'm not sure. As a layman that looks to me like the ROC lost supply and didn't recover, maybe due to UPS or whatever not taking over. It seems to discount the theory that the UPS took over as it should but was unable to sustain supply.

 

Nicholas Lewis

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Discussions above mention DNO supplies and Generators in the singular. Tier IV data centres will have 2N or 2N+1 for both DNO supplies and generators, and dual independent power feeding for all equipment. The workload is also typically active-active in at least two independent data centres, so even if you did suffer a catastrophic loss, you can recover.
There's no technically good reason for not implementing this in a ROC - but it may be matter of cost-benefit: As others will no doubt point out, it's rather more difficult to do this with the operations function of a signalling centre (e.g. specifically qualified people).
A ROC probably doesn't justify Tier 4 but definitely Tier 3 on cost grounds but even at that level if the UPS doesn't provide the coverage from loss of supply to restoration whether its Tier 3 or 4 is irrelevant.

So like Heathrow the loss of supply is credible failure scenario that no electricity supplier can fully guard against hence the redundancy arrangements they have as well as the ROC has. Its how the end user chooses then chooses to manage the consequences should that scenario arise is at the root of this incident. We know the ROC actually had a Tier 4 supply on paper ie N-2 capability although in reality the DNO supply was common mode failure so not true Tier 4. What we dont know is the ROCs internal workings of power distribution and UPS supplies inside the ROC so its speculation as to what the root cause is. That said I would imagine that there would be multiple UPS systems within the box as I very much doubt that SSI cases and the workstations would have all been fed of an individual UPS yet the outcome suggests that. The fact that NRs route director referred to implementing additional resilience on a Twitter update suggests things weren't as they should have been perhaps.
 

Mcr Warrior

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From RTT it appears that the wheels came off at 13.40, the same time as the power outage. What that tells us I'm not sure.
Was on a train originating from Buxton that ground to a halt in the vicinity of Ardwick Junction at about 1350 (along with others, including a train from Manchester Airport for Barrow-in-Furness that didn't get beyond platform 14 at Manchester Piccadilly), before my train was then allowed to proceed into platform 9 only about 5 minutes down. Could have been a lot worse! Then came the station announcement that there was a problem in the area.
 

RJ

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but if the number requested don't physically exist (within reasonable reach of the area)?

Have to at least try, if there aren't enough then there aren't enough! Where I am the local rail replacement operators have been kitting up. The number of buses that can be somewhat considered as dedicated resource is slowly increasing.
 
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Elecman

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From what I can gather this was a run of the mill power outage from the local DNO. This is the most credible failure scenario and it should have been seamless to the operators within the ROC but it wasn't. The site should have three sources of supply one we know was from the local DNO, one was from a back up generator was a third from the 25kV system?

Anyhow its been know from the dawn of computers they dont take kindly to power glitches so the raw electronics is fed through power converters that keep the supply clean. Then we also know that even a momentary power dip let alone a full loss will upset the equipment so its all designed to withstand that even your home laptop can cover for a few 10's milliseconds. But this is mission critical equipment so it will all be fed off duplicated UPS (uninterruptible power supplies) that will be sized in capacity and duration that should more than sufficient for the incoming supplies to be reconfigured to one of the alternatives.

NR have finally broken cover and apologised for the fiasco but revealed anything else other than telling us how hard everyone is working to sort the issue. Thing is it shouldn't have happened in the first place and Secretary of State should be requesting NR to report the facts and why it took so long to restore the systems. There are maybe a dozen of these ROCs around the country now and there still being expanded so their resilience is paramount.
There is no 25kV backup at Manchester ROC for a couple of reasons
 

Signal Head

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What I heard was that when the "manchester south" scheme was put in, it was hoped that it would be extended to cover stockport,. When what is now platform 0 was first built it was numbered 1, presumablly in anticipation of resignalling works but the ansaldo kit proved problematic so the stockport area never got added to the system.
The Stockport area was due to be the first section controlled by the Ansaldo system. Despite beginning some of the PWay remodeling on the ground, and installing the interlocking equipment, various technical and operational issues combined to convince NR that it wasn't viable. The area that is currently Ansaldo-controlled was to have been the second stage, with the acronym 'SWiM' (Sandbach, Wilmslow including Macclesfield) although in the event Macclesfield itself was not resignalled. That may have been a budgetry issue.
 

TheSmiths82

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Who will pay for the delay repay for this? I am guessing it will come into many millions especially if people submit expense for taxis etc. I am guessing it is ultimately Network Rail, if the power was only down for 90 seconds it isn't the DNO's fault that the backups didn't work or the system itself doesn't have enough redundancy. A relative got caught up in it and ended up having to get a £20 taxi to complete her journey after being stuck on the train for more than an hour.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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Who will pay for the delay repay for this? I am guessing it will come into many millions especially if people submit expense for taxis etc. I am guessing it is ultimately Network Rail, if the power was only down for 90 seconds it isn't the DNO's fault that the backups didn't work or the system itself doesn't have enough redundancy. A relative got caught up in it and ended up having to get a £20 taxi to complete her journey after being stuck on the train for more than an hour.
This is NRs fault so they would have take the Sch 8 hit but as most of delay was on DfTOs Northern and TPE its all wooden dollars anyhow. The one thing about we are all "in it together" world is there may not be the tension that used to exist when big money was involved to get to the root of the issue and use it as a business case to invest in improvements should they be deemed be necessary.
 

Merle Haggard

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This is NRs fault so they would have take the Sch 8 hit but as most of delay was on DfTOs Northern and TPE its all wooden dollars anyhow. The one thing about we are all "in it together" world is there may not be the tension that used to exist when big money was involved to get to the root of the issue and use it as a business case to invest in improvements should they be deemed be necessary.
Not just a business case, but also inspire a sense of urgency.
I've noticed how quickly problems caused by points and signals failures are resolved by NR, to reduce train delay as much as possible. The delay minutes counter (and the costs associated with it against NR) whizzing round certainly seems to motivate speedy responses and trains quickly on the move again.
When that internal financial motivation has gone perhaps we'll just have to wait on trains while the convenient, but slower, approach is adopted.
 

TheSmiths82

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That is a good point, there isn't much point on spending millions in legal fees to work out who was to blame when the compensation will all come from the tax payer anyway. Does anybody know why some Avanti trains where able to leave both Piccadilly and Liverpool Lime Street when nearly all TPE and Northern trains couldn't move? Did they get prioritised in order to reduce the delay pay costs? I am guessing that a cancelled or delayed London train will much more bigger claims than say Manchester to Warrington.
I am guessing if they knew for a fact where all the trains where, they could manually allow a few Avanti trains to leave. Interestingly some of them didn't even have much of a delay arriving into London.
 

Harpo

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Does anybody know why some Avanti trains where able to leave both Piccadilly and Liverpool Lime Street when nearly all TPE and Northern trains couldn't move? Did they get prioritised in order to reduce the delay pay costs?
I’ve never known operational decisions to work like that. When it hits the fan (and this was a big un) you move whatever traffic you can however you can. But you need them to be crewed up at the time to do it ;)
 

Annetts key

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Not necessarily. A firm I worked for tested them once a month. On one occasion the Facilities Manager thought it would be smart to put the batteries on boost charge afterwards. Then he forgot and they boiled dry.

A few days later there was a real power cut and the genny failed to start leaving entire complex without any power.
The battery chargers for the railway standby generators that I have seen are fully automatic types. Two chargers and batteries for the control system and two chargers and batteries for the starter motor. All four chargers are fed from the load side so that the batteries recharge from both the mains and from the generator supply.

Surely the ROC must have a UPS with the batteries capable of keeping it going for a few hours should the generator fail to start. I suppose the problems come when track circuits, axle counters etc lose their local supply. Are signal heads locally powered with standby batteries?
The UPS battery capacity is only normally rated to supply the load between the time of the loss of the mains (DNO) supply and the time the standby generator takes to start and get up to speed, plus a "safety" margin.

Track circuits and signals and the control equipment (remote from the signalling centre) do not have any kind of local/individual battery back-up. Some points may have a battery to reduce the load on the power network when they operate, others may not use any battery.

Axle counters do normally have a battery backed supply so that they don't loose the axle count during a short duration loss of power.

At Three Bridges ROC, in the event of power failure there is a Battery UPS that catches the loss of supply and then gives the huge Diesel Generator time to spool up and settle down before the UPS hands supply duties over to the generator (a matter of a few minutes). When I was a Radio Tech I was tasked with babysitting the GSMR system, whilst we did a power outage test. There were other Telecoms techs present and a couple of members of the D&P to ensure if it didn't work as designed then we could get it back on the DNO supply and reboot any systems that fell over. It worked fine when we tested it.
Yes, at one time there was actually a written instruction that S&T should be on site when a "crash test" was to be conducted by the D&P. I think it was in the general instructions to S&T staff.

The flip side is that it can take a certain scale before redundancy is worth it. Does every individual signalbox have generator backup? Whereas with something of the scale of the ROC you absolutely will put in UPS, generator backup, redundant grid feeds etc.
No. PSB and signalling centres (including ROCs) are required to have a standby generator, but it's optional for traditional signal boxes. Where a signal box has not been modernised or is not considered important enough, it will not have a standby generator.

Some signal boxes that have been modernised, may have both a standby generator and a UPS, with the UPS only powering for example computer based interlocking such as SSI equipment.

Having previously worked in Facilities Management, incidents like this massively trigger me. I can regale people with numerous tales of poorly designed power failure systems and processes, poorly maintained UPS and generator systems and power system interlocks that haven’t ever been tested in anger. I’m just thinking of some poor maintenance tech, the FM and his mates at the moment trying to get a stable power supply back on whilst the world and his wife are shouting down the telephone at them.
Been there. Total loss of signalling on part of the South Wales main line due to part of the 650V AC network having failed. Every time I picked up my multimeter to try to see what if any voltage there was, my company mobile ' rang... Someone else wanting to know what was going on... After this happened the third time, I put the 'phone on the floor and whacked it so that it slid to my workmate (it was a floor in a building).

Switching from a good balanced 3 phase from the generator to an unbalanced mains (e.g. 2 good + 1 struggling phase e.g. lower volts and unusual waveform) is good recipe for stuff going wrong. [I've seen this one before when an EA contractor repairing a flood defence damaged a DNO cable causing issues on just a single phase, it took a lot of effort to work out what was going on. The net result was 3 phase equipment playing up at times of day then the local loads were high]

Experience - presumably with single phase supply? Single phase is much simple to deal with when thing have gone wrong!
The control circuitry that is part of the standby generator system includes under voltage detection for each incoming phase. If one phase is lost, it treats it as a complete loss of the DNO supply.

This is another reason why the transfer back to the mains DNO supply is done manually. No point in switching back to a DNO supply that can't support the load. That just causes even more problems. An unstable or intermittent supply will upset both computer based interlocking and signalling systems and relay based interlocking and signalling systems. Drivers and signallers are not keen on signals flashing red, black, red, black etc... And that can cause fuses to blow and MCBs to trip out. Or cause actual signalling equipment to fail.

Not just a business case, but also inspire a sense of urgency.
I've noticed how quickly problems caused by points and signals failures are resolved by NR, to reduce train delay as much as possible. The delay minutes counter (and the costs associated with it against NR) whizzing round certainly seems to motivate speedy responses and trains quickly on the move again.
When that internal financial motivation has gone perhaps we'll just have to wait on trains while the convenient, but slower, approach is adopted.
No, it's never that simple. When I joined the BR S&T department in the late 1980s, the mantra was to do everything possible to keep trains moving as long as it was safe to do so and to minimise delays.

Privatisation upset that. We were instructed not to use our own initiative but to just report any problems that we found rather than trying to fix them on the same shift. In other words, we were only to do the work that we had been tasked with. The manager would put the reported defects in the job bank.

Unfortunately many times, by the time the job got planned, I would arrive on site to see some shiny new equipment or that the problem had already been fixed. At some point between being reported and the work being planned, the problem had escalated into a failure (often causing train delays) and hence the problem had been fixed before I turned up to do the planned work...

Network Rail has since introduced risk based maintenance, as in we do less maintenance and less often to save money if the powers that be think the risk of a train delaying failure is low (which they do unless the equipment has a history of train delaying failures). But of course, this is a risk, as sometimes the equipment does fail...

Because less maintenance is being carried out, there is now less maintenance staff. So when it does go wrong, there are less staff available to fix the problems...

And compared to Railtrack, there are less MOMs (Mobile Operation Managers) to manually operate points, work as pilots (single line working), act as handsignallers or work signal boxes.

Oh, nearly forgot, Network Rail managers have a delays budget. If the number of delays is within the budget, there is less pressure on. Conversely, if the delays are far exceeding the budget, they may hold a special meeting to try to find the underlying cause.
 
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Starmill

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Bolton
That is a good point, there isn't much point on spending millions in legal fees to work out who was to blame when the compensation will all come from the tax payer anyway. Does anybody know why some Avanti trains where able to leave both Piccadilly and Liverpool Lime Street when nearly all TPE and Northern trains couldn't move? Did they get prioritised in order to reduce the delay pay costs? I am guessing that a cancelled or delayed London train will much more bigger claims than say Manchester to Warrington.
I am guessing if they knew for a fact where all the trains where, they could manually allow a few Avanti trains to leave. Interestingly some of them didn't even have much of a delay arriving into London.
No. Train s that were physically able to get on the move were moving. The ones that weren't, weren't.
but if the number requested don't physically exist (within reasonable reach of the area)?
But they do. It has been the case for years that operators instruct compliant vehicles for pre-planned works. This is just part of that.

In any case emergency work doesn't get much oversight compared to anything pre-planned.
 

Harpo

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And compared to Railtrack, there are less MOMs (Mobile Operation Managers) to manually operate points, work as pilots (single line working), back as handsignallers or work signal boxes.
The historical result of forcing budget savings from operations. When 90% of their staff are signallers with rigidly fixed numbers in boxes for rigidly fixed hours (when not continuous), MOMs were the only ‘fat’ on the bone.
 

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