Trains all at a stand in the Manchester area... (Thursday afternoon 06AUG2026)

[Falcon1200]

Is there not a backup location for the Manchester ROC?

IIRC when the ROC concept was first developed it was stated that a huge advantage would be that should one be out of action, another could take over its duties and the trains would still run. Where the staff, or indeed the workstations, would come from to allow this was never stated! AFAIK it has never actually happened, to no-one's surprise.

 

[vinnym70]

Having previously worked in Facilities Management, incidents like this massively trigger me. I can regale people with numerous tales of poorly designed power failure systems and processes, poorly maintained UPS and generator systems and power system interlocks that haven’t ever been tested in anger. I’m just thinking of some poor maintenance tech, the FM and his mates at the moment trying to get a stable power supply back on whilst the world and his wife are shouting down the telephone at them.

Not to mention places where a 'proper' test was shut-down by senior folks and a half-arsed test was conducted instead to get a tick in a box.

 

[Iskra]

IIRC when the ROC concept was first developed it was stated that a huge advantage would be that should one be out of action, another could take over its duties and the trains would still run. Where the staff, or indeed the workstations, would come from to allow this was never stated! AFAIK it has never actually happened, to no-one's surprise.

I think there are back up panels. They are however in York, which was not accessible by train from Manchester due to this very incident…

 

[Trothy]

I think there are back up panels. They are however in York, which was not accessible by train from Manchester due to this very incident…

I can categorically confirm there are no backup panels for Manchester ROC in York ROC!

 

[The Mercian]

I'd say at this point, having basically shut down the network over much of the North of England in the run up to the evening peak, that ought to be enough scale. And frankly given that it's been shown to have been such an issue, someone, somewhere should have asked the question "what if the backup fails?"

As I said earlier, someone has a very difficult day coming up tomorrow.

But that will entirely depend on how much money you have to provide redundancy? As I’d assume a ROC is defined as CNI (?) you’d hope it would have redundancy to a very high level.

Having been in the position where you need to provide a report the day after to senior Managers I dont envy anyone who’ll be in that position tomorrow.

 

[AndrewE]

Having been in the position where you need to provide a report the day after to senior Managers I dont envy anyone who’ll be in that position tomorrow.

Maybe they will just say "You told us to cut costs, so we have!" and shrug their shoulders...
This sort of thing was predicted in a NR document (which I can't find now) They just say that everything is fail-safe, so no accidents or harm will occur(!)

 

[Bantamzen]

But that will entirely depend on how much money you have to provide redundancy? As I’d assume a ROC is defined as CNI (?) you’d hope it would have redundancy to a very high level.

Tell that to all the stranded passengers tonight.

This is nothing short of an actual PR disaster for the railway industry. I'm guessing today tens, if not hundreds of thousands of people's journeys have been impacted and many will be claiming back the full amount given the length of delays. There's no excuses for this, build in enough redundancy.

 

[nickswift99]

They probably do but it is a classic in the IT world that generators get tested quite often but then one or more things happen to cause the test to be meaningless:

1. They don't do an actual switchover - just see that the generators start and never apply load
2. They have used nearly all the fuel in testing and when needed in anger there is none / little left - stop laughing there at the back as it happens all to often.

Fuel goes off too. Diesel typically needs regular replacement roughly every 12 months.

 

[The Mercian]

Tell that to all the stranded passengers tonight.

This is nothing short of an actual PR disaster for the railway industry. I'm guessing today tens, if not hundreds of thousands of people's journeys have been impacted and many will be claiming back the full amount given the length of delays. There's no excuses for this, build in enough redundancy.

I’m not disagreeing with you, it’s a disaster and if enough redundancy hasn’t been inbuilt or systems and processes aren’t up to the job then they need to be fixed.

 

[Belperpete]

IIRC when the ROC concept was first developed it was stated that a huge advantage would be that should one be out of action, another could take over its duties and the trains would still run. Where the staff, or indeed the workstations, would come from to allow this was never stated! AFAIK it has never actually happened, to no-one's surprise.

Agreed. You would not only need a complete identical set of workstations, but they would need to be continuously kept up to date with current data ready for any possible switchover. And the staff operating them would need to be up to date with any incidents that the staff at the main site were dealing with. And vice versa when switching back.

 

[CB Root]

Cheers mate! This is the route we’ll take. Thank you!!

A word of caution - the walk from LDS to the bus station is a few minutes and takes you through a very lively part of the city. At that time of night, you need to have your antennae up, don't catch anyone's eye and stride with purpose !

Source: A few years living in Leeds

 

[louis97]

Manchester ROC has taken over control of the Independent lines at Crewe, with the closure of the manual boxes in the area.
This may well have affected freight trains in the area, with knock-on to the main lines, particularly the slows.

Manchester ROC also controls Basford Hall Junction, fringing to Crewe SCC to the north and Rugby ROC Stafford Workstation to the South. This is the junction just south of Crewe where the Independent Lines diverge, so if that workstation is closed/unavailable you basically cannot run trains between Stafford and Crewe via Madeley.

 

[SargeNpton]

The mayor of Manchester heads South and two weeks later the north goes to pot.

 

[Kilopylae]

Great timing for Avanti to do a full revenue check with several train loads of people piling on to Platform 1.

Whoever's idea this was needs a serious talking-to. The railway in this country cannot help shooting itself in the foot during what is already a PR disaster.

 

[Belperpete]

Having been in the position where you need to provide a report the day after to senior Managers I dont envy anyone who’ll be in that position tomorrow.

It depends on what the problem was. If it was because of a failure to maintain the equipment properly, then yes. If it was because of a basic flaw in the system, then the maintenance people will likely just shrug their shoulders and say, sorry, but that is a problem with the system you have given us to maintain.

The maintenance side don't get much say on the system that they have to maintain. They can't go around changing the type or configuration of safety critical equipment.

 

[cin88]

Traksy and the like aren't exactly reliable today as the train describers and GSMR all went down briefly as part of the failure. Its showing trains in locations where they either aren't or passed through during the incident when leaving ROC areas to the fringes. Train Movement Viewer being down was causing no end of issues for the controllers as they had absolutely no idea where anything actually was whilst signallers were busy trying to establish who was where.

 

[Trainman40083]

Also been disruption for Cross Country between Derby and Birmingham, due to them finding a 900lb WW2 unexploded bomb at Wichnor Junction.

 

[Kilopylae]

Also been disruption for Cross Country between Derby and Birmingham, due to them finding a 900lb WW2 unexploded bomb at Wichnor Junction.

It never rains but pours.

 

[Ballyheigue]

A word of caution - the walk from LDS to the bus station is a few minutes and takes you through a very lively part of the city. At that time of night, you need to have your antennae up, don't catch anyone's eye and stride with purpose !

Source: A few years living in Leeds

Safest way, although longer, would be to go up Park Row to the Headrow, turn right and follow the Headrow all the way down into Eastgate to it's end by the traffic lights, then turn right until you reach the bus/coach station. Any other way is dodgy.

 

[Trothy]

Agreed. You would not only need a complete identical set of workstations, but they would need to be continuously kept up to date with current data ready for any possible switchover. And the staff operating them would need to be up to date with any incidents that the staff at the main site were dealing with. And vice versa when switching back.

Not to mention the staff in York would need a competency to work the panel in question, and regular refreshing on said panels. When it was proposed as an advantage of the ROC scheme, it was quickly highlighted as completely unworkable.

 

[Acathater]

Everyone seems to be "blaming the railway".
Has anyone considered that this surprising combination of issues could actually be due to external factors e.g. hackers / foreign interference?
I seem to remember one incident last year was quietly tentatively blamed on Russian interference - could this be a scaled up attack with the aim of causing disruption?

 

[Merle Haggard]

Indeed, similarly those stranded at Macclesfield for over 90mins would see it as fairly doom and gloom.

I boarded the 13.54 Avanti to Euston (via Crewe) at Piccadilly but, after some delay, it magically transformed into the 14.14 (via Stoke)
It was then announced that it would no longer call at Macclesfield or Stoke.
Would this become a 'passenger service over very unusual lines', going neither via Crewe nor via Stoke? Disappointingly but inevitably, no.
All that happened was that we went booked route and at both stations we waited outside - presumably while the train in front called - and when the signal cleared to single yellow we then accelerated slowly through the platform past intending passengers who, presumably, had been told it was 'cancelled'.
Not calling didn't improve the timekeeping, so I missed the 1616 Northampton 'connection' at Rugby; and, in the law of Murphy, the next - 1646 - was cancelled and the one after that, delayed somewhat.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Sixty years ago, under the WCML electrification project, Birmingham New Street power signal box had two levels of back-up. Normal supply from ‘the mains’, back-up from the 25kV system under BR’s control and only then emergency generators.

Does Manchester ROC have a similar set-up?

 

[startingaparty]

What exactly are passengers meant to do in this situation? I'm just scrolling through the social media feeds and Northern are just replying to people saying something along the lines of "we are advising customers not to travel" without offering a solution, e.g. book a taxi and we'll reimburse you, check into a hotel and we'll cover the cost. It just seems all incredibly vague and unhelpful? There's hundreds, if not more, who will have travelled by train to work this morning and are now miles away stranded (myself included).

I was able to get a 36/37 bus from Piccadilly Gardens to Bolton and then a 125 bus from Bolton to Preston but not everyone can do that/knows they can do that.

 

[EYFanatic]

Have evacuations taken place on the track? Somebody mentioned it up thread and it made me wonder how they take care of those unable to evacuate via ladders - I presume they are made comfortable on the train by crews

 

[Iskra]

T

What exactly are passengers meant to do in this situation? I'm just scrolling through the social media feeds and Northern are just replying to people saying something along the lines of "we are advising customers not to travel" without offering a solution, e.g. book a taxi and we'll reimburse you, check into a hotel and we'll cover the cost. It just seems all incredibly vague and unhelpful? There's hundreds, if not more, who will have travelled by train to work this morning and are now miles away stranded (myself included).

I was able to get a 36/37 bus from Piccadilly Gardens to Bolton and then a 125 bus from Bolton to Preston but not everyone can do that/knows they can do that.

The answer is probably station-specific, but at Oxford Road, sound and practical advice was being announced over the tannoy, such as: Manchester Airport- use bus (the number was specified but I can’t recall it) or the tram. For Scotland, they were advising taxi to Warrington Bank Quay and then train from there. Not perfect, admittedly but it was useful.

 

[43096]

Everyone seems to be "blaming the railway".
Has anyone considered that this surprising combination of issues could actually be due to external factors e.g. hackers / foreign interference?
I seem to remember one incident last year was quietly tentatively blamed on Russian interference - could this be a scaled up attack with the aim of causing disruption?

I'm not sure why hackers/foreign interference would bother attacking the rail network here. The railway is more than capable of screwing itself up on a regular basis.

 

[Bantamzen]

Everyone seems to be "blaming the railway".
Has anyone considered that this surprising combination of issues could actually be due to external factors e.g. hackers / foreign interference?
I seem to remember one incident last year was quietly tentatively blamed on Russian interference - could this be a scaled up attack with the aim of causing disruption?

Nope. This is one is fairly, and squarely on the railways, primarily Network Rail although the TOC's comms have not covered them in glory.

What exactly are passengers meant to do in this situation? I'm just scrolling through the social media feeds and Northern are just replying to people saying something along the lines of "we are advising customers not to travel" without offering a solution, e.g. book a taxi and we'll reimburse you, check into a hotel and we'll cover the cost. It just seems all incredibly vague and unhelpful? There's hundreds, if not more, who will have travelled by train to work this morning and are now miles away stranded (myself included).

I was able to get a 36/37 bus from Piccadilly Gardens to Bolton and then a 125 bus from Bolton to Preston but not everyone can do that/knows they can do that.

This is the point I was making earlier. If the network falls over so completely the way it did today, and if putting on RRBs isn't feasible, at least point passengers in the direction of alternatives.

And before anyone says this wouldn't be possible, back in 2007 when the devastating floods were hitting the north of England, rail staff at Leeds were actively pointing passengers towards possible bus alternatives, including giving directions to stops where they would be leaving from and even phoning the bus companies to try and get updates as to what services were running. As a result I was able to get a good distance home (I was living in South Elmsall & working in Bradford at the time), before having to get a taxi the remainder of the way home. They proved almost 20 years ago that this kind of comms can be done.

 

[Elecman]

Manchester ROC has 2 independent 6.6kV DNO intake feeders fed from a primary substation either of which can feed the entire building by closing the relevant bus bar couplers on the HV panels ( there are some reports of a large part of Ardwick also bring without power) do sounds like it’s a SPENWL issue.

 

[Russel]

Manchester ROC power failure - backup generators failed to start when they were supposed to activate.

We have bridges and viaducts up and down the country that are more buddleia than brick, so somehow, this doesn't surprise me.