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Winding back the railway clock

45Fox

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The Midland Mainline however was a different kettle of fish. It seemed to be the forgotten mainline. The loco hauled stock was old and dirty, the service slow and unreliable. Often I would turn up at Derby and there would be no clue when the next train to London might actually turn up, or when I might get to London. I used to dread my trips to Derby. That line was totally transformed when the HSTs were introduced.

Known as the "Cinderella Line" back then.

With the current mess EMR finds itself in, the Midland Main Line is sadly slipping backwards; admittedly not quite to the pre-HST era but I did use this term yesterday when discussing a proposed trip from Leicester to London with my wife, we now find ourselves looking at alternatives (via Nuneaton or Birmingham) for a half expected meltdown of the service on the day.
 
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midland1

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I think your perceptions of the 60s and 70s probably depended a lot on where you travelled. My recollections of the Southern inner suburban area was of a very reliable service, albeit with somewhat ageing stock (you could sink quite far down in some of the cushions) and floors covered in cigarette butts, discarded newspapers and other rubbish. They weren't swept during the day, so the morning's rubbish was still there in the evening. I think that sweeping of trains after the morning peak was a NSE innovation?

But the important thing was that even if something happened and the timetable collapsed, they would still keep trains running. So if something derailed, for example, it would be hoiked clear so that trains could run again asap, and recovered overnight.

Whereas the Cambrian on a Saturday, you never knew when you might get a train. You would turn up at the advertised time, and could wait two or even three hours. No staff to ask, no platform displays, no help point, no internet, no mobile phone to call anyone. If you left the station to find a phone box, you risked missing the train, so you all just waited. Even if a train came the other way, and you asked the guard, they were usually as much in the dark as you.

The North Wales coast line was much better. Except summer Saturdays, which could be quite chaotic. But at least there were station staff to ask, and who generally knew what to do. And even on the Conwy Valley, I don't recall ever being seriously delayed.

The Midland Mainline however was a different kettle of fish. It seemed to be the forgotten mainline. The loco hauled stock was old and dirty, the service slow and unreliable. Often I would turn up at Derby and there would be no clue when the next train to London might actually turn up, or when I might get to London. I used to dread my trips to Derby. That line was totally transformed when the HSTs were introduced.

One thing that I think we tend to take for granted these days is that most services now run on a regular repeating pattern. Back then, outside the suburban areas, service patterns were totally irregular, and often different from one day to the next. Timetables used to be littered with WO, TThO and the like. You really did need to refer to the timetables for most journeys. Nowadays, even on a line like the Cambrian, the services are two hourly, give or take a couple of minutes. Back then, if you missed a train, you would have to look at the timetable.

The most unhelpful timetable note that I still recall was Crossville's bus services that ran something like Tuesdays only, except Wednesdays on Llanrwst market and fair days. Of course, the timetable didn't tell you which were market and fair days, you were expected to know that. As I recall, markets were held in the first week of the month, except in months when there was a fair. And if the Tuesday was the last of one month, and the Wednesday the first of the next..... I got stranded once because I got it wrong.
I remember on the Cambrian in the 70s the timetable had a note " not on school holidays" for one or two trains.
 

Rescars

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I think your perceptions of the 60s and 70s probably depended a lot on where you travelled. My recollections of the Southern inner suburban area was of a very reliable service, albeit with somewhat ageing stock (you could sink quite far down in some of the cushions) and floors covered in cigarette butts, discarded newspapers and other rubbish. They weren't swept during the day, so the morning's rubbish was still there in the evening. I think that sweeping of trains after the morning peak was a NSE innovation?

But the important thing was that even if something happened and the timetable collapsed, they would still keep trains running. So if something derailed, for example, it would be hoiked clear so that trains could run again asap, and recovered overnight.
Maybe we were just lucky, or memories are rose-tinted. Of course the timetable collapsed periodically, but I don't recall a 4-SUB ever encountering the wrong kind of snow!
 

35B

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There's little doubt that the IET seats were poorly specified but plenty of post-BR seats are better than any of the original second class offerings in mk2/3/4. However many people seem to think train seats should be for lounging in when they are specifically designed for upright seating. When occupied that way, subject to spacing allowing sufficient leg-room, Pendolinos, Voyagers and Desiros are all better than any BR seat. And I speak as someone who is tall for my generation.
I am also tall (6'6"). The seats I remember from BR, up to and including the IC70, were designed for people to relax into. The more modern seats may be "comfortable" if I sit bolt upright in them, but that is not how I sit comfortably on a long journey.

The BR era seats also had another, seemingly lost, virtue. By being arranged around tables and with the backs leaning against each other, they created space for luggage. Space that airline seats do not support, and where there is no extra luggage capacity provided - even as travellers are more willing to carry heavy luggage as wheeled cases and rucksacks become far more normal.
 

Broucek

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It would be nice to go back to a time when one wouldn't need a new mortgage to get an open return.
Yeah, one thing that puts me off rail travel is the need to target a particular train. Which means I have to arrive 30 mins early in case something goes wrong on my way to the station....
 
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Fond memories indeed of the comfort of Mk1 compartment stock, especially when not crowded - ideally not even shared. They may have been a bit grubby from time to time, but they were so full of charm. Splendid seats, especially in first class, great views, spacious WCs, cosy lighting and a welcome fug from the heating in winter and the possibility of a serious blow through of freshish air in summer. And the sounds of the loco thrashing away up front was exhilarating too. But oh my goodness, the quality (or not) of the ride! Sometimes even being able to read was challenging, never mind trying to get a bit of work done and draft a document longhand. Always amazed me how guards' and chief stewards' logs were so legible!
And empty trains making no money, or perhaps losing even more than a full one.
 

Ashley Hill

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Going back to my spotting days of the late 70s and through the 80s I enjoyed the huge variety of trains and locos that were about. Turning up at a station and not knowing what may turn up was part of the enjoyment.
Nowadays the uncertainty and variety has gone. Fewer loco classes and nearly all variants of multiple units on passenger work.
Also thanks to the internet anything unusual due has all the timings available on the net. You can track its progress, walk to your chosen location and fot it without having to fester over some bridge parapet.
 

Sun Chariot

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Going back to my spotting days of the late 70s and through the 80s I enjoyed the huge variety of trains and locos that were about. Turning up at a station and not knowing what may turn up was part of the enjoyment.
Nowadays the uncertainty and variety has gone. Fewer loco classes and nearly all variants of multiple units on passenger work.
Also thanks to the internet anything unusual due has all the timings available on the net. You can track its progress, walk to your chosen location and fot it without having to fester over some bridge parapet.
Not forgetting never runming out of camera film / fogging the picture...
 

yorksrob

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Yeah, one thing that puts me off rail travel is the need to target a particular train. Which means I have to arrive 30 mins early in case something goes wrong on my way to the station....

Indeed, yet for rail's main competitor there's no requirement at all to book a slot months in advance.

I think the railway establishment are living on another planet sometimes.
 

mike57

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Yeah, one thing that puts me off rail travel is the need to target a particular train.
Thinking back to my regular Yorkshire - London commutes weekly from around 1979 to 1985/6 I would buy an open return ticket, I think it may have been 'off peak' that couldn't be used for leaving London after 4pm, but exact details are lost in the mists of my memories, but fares were not prohibive for a reasonably open ticket.

I assume the current situation where advance tickets are the only economic option for a lot of journeys came about with privatisation.

On inter city routes such as London - Manchester or London - York I would be interested to know how much of the fare box revenue comes from the sale of 'Anytime returns' at eye watering prices.

I think the railway establishment are living on another planet sometimes
More like each ToC lives in its own silo, and with little sign that GBR is doing much beyond some branding.
 

The exile

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Indeed, yet for rail's main competitor there's no requirement at all to book a slot months in advance.

I think the railway establishment are living on another planet sometimes.
If you were intending to drive to an airport for an early evening flight and that drive involved 2 hours of Motorway travel (not to mention getting to it in the first place) how much buffer time would you put in ?
Incidentally, I’m totally in agreement about the lack of affordable flexible tickets (travel to and from airports being the biggest bugbear for me) but the need to add buffer time is hardly unique to the railway.
 

WesternLancer

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If you were intending to drive to an airport for an early evening flight and that drive involved 2 hours of Motorway travel (not to mention getting to it in the first place) how much buffer time would you put in ?
Incidentally, I’m totally in agreement about the lack of affordable flexible tickets (travel to and from airports being the biggest bugbear for me) but the need to add buffer time is hardly unique to the railway.
Yes. But not many people take a flight once or twice a week I’d think. Compared with rail users.
 

Broucek

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the need to add buffer time is hardly unique to the railway.
I raised the point based on car vs. rail within the UK. I like travelling by rail but it's expensive and inflexible

I agree that you need more buffer time when flying but most of my flying is to Europe for work and there is often no realistic alternative
 

The exile

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I raised the point based on car vs. rail within the UK. I like travelling by rail but it's expensive and inflexible

I agree that you need more buffer time when flying but most of my flying is to Europe for work and there is often no realistic alternative
I think there’s been a bit of a double misunderstanding. I was thinking of the need to build in buffer time when travelling to a “fixed time event” (like a flight departure) - where car and train are basically one and the same (though we don’t always see it that way).
I wasn’t thinking of the train departure time as itself being one of those “fixed time events” which you need to build in extra buffer time for thanks to advance tickets. Shows how rarely I make long distance train journeys not on rover tickets, I suppose.
 

Broucek

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I think there’s been a bit of a double misunderstanding. I was thinking of the need to build in buffer time when travelling to a “fixed time event” (like a flight departure) - where car and train are basically one and the same (though we don’t always see it that way).
I wasn’t thinking of the train departure time as itself being one of those “fixed time events” which you need to build in extra buffer time for thanks to advance tickets. Shows how rarely I make long distance train journeys not on rover tickets, I suppose.
Aha! Yes, that makes sense!
 

Rescars

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Aha! Yes, that makes sense!
G K Chesterton famously claimed "The only way to be sure of catching a train is to miss the one before it." Nowadays it seems the only way to be sure of catching your train is to arrive in time to catch the one before it! ;)
 

Broucek

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LOL on Chesterton.

Of course, it's not just getting to the station early. It's also picking a conservatively timed train for the way home as missing the timed train can be VERY expensive. All this can easily add 2 hours to the total "day out" relative to car travel
 

yorksrob

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If you were intending to drive to an airport for an early evening flight and that drive involved 2 hours of Motorway travel (not to mention getting to it in the first place) how much buffer time would you put in ?
Incidentally, I’m totally in agreement about the lack of affordable flexible tickets (travel to and from airports being the biggest bugbear for me) but the need to add buffer time is hardly unique to the railway.

If I were catching a plane, I'd build in a lot more buffer time anyway, however that's an extremely rare occurrence for me.
 

GRALISTAIR

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I loved the railway scene in the 1970s and even early 1980s. I really did. However, time moves on and we cant go back. I loved being in a Mark 1 or 2 and traveling overnight on All Line Railrovers (aka dossing). A favourite was me to get the 00.08 ex Preston to Inverness on day 1 of my rover. The following night-or later, I would get the night train from Waverly to Kings Cross. Loved it - just loved it.
 

Falcon1200

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I loved being in a Mark 1 or 2 and traveling overnight on All Line Railrovers (aka dossing).

In Summer 1979 I did my first Scottish Region First Class Railrover. I travelled Second Class on an overnight from Euston to Inverness, as far as Carlisle in a Mark ! Second Open with lights so bright the Gestapo would have hesitated to use them for an interrogation. At Carlisle, where my Railrover became valid, I moved to a First Class compartment which I had to myself for the rest of the journey. Wonderful times indeed, but how could such lightly-loaded trains be sustainable?
 

Rover

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I believe the bankers should have been two Welsh 37s off Landore so a single Gateshead loco was unusual, not surprisingly it was having to work extra hard!
 

norbitonflyer

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* Example - as at January 1980, all these loco classes had at least one fleet-member in revenue service:
01, 03, 05, 06, 08, 09, 13, 20, 24, 25, 26, 27, 31, 33, 37, 40, 44, 45, 46, 47, 50, 55, 56, 73, 76, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87.
My first (1971) combined volume also included classes 02, 04, 07, 10, 11, 12, 14, 22, 23, 29, 35, 42, 43, 48, 52 and 53 (but not 56 or 87 of course)
Sadly, of these, I only saw classes 02, 07, 35 and 52 in revenue service, and only a single class 52 for haulage.
 

Rover

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Apparently a class 13 aka master and slave unit did a railtour. Annoyed with myself for missing it.
It did indeed, in fact two did.
7th October 1978 The Pennine Rambler, (the 76s are my photo) it was my 19th birthday, I was on it, 13003 worked it from Rotherwood to Tinsley Yard.
The second one was 13001 but I don't know the date of that one.

The photograph is taken from onboard and shows 13003 near Rotherwood with numerous window-hangers
1978_10_07_PennineRambler_13003.jpg
 
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