Winding back the railway clock

LMS 4F · 9 Jul 2026

I did a lot of rail travel to and from various Army postings in the 1960s and like the curates egg found BR good in parts.
Fond memories of the Andover to Waterloo service on a Friday evening at about 5pm with the cafe open and serving beer as far as Surbiton or there about.
Not so nice to recall the Sunday evenings at Bedford Midland road waiting for a London train and it was often just turn up and see what comes and when.
Also needed to get to Pembroke on a Bank Holiday Monday and after the wrong advice at Bedford spent the night on a table top in the waiting room at Carmarthen. I wasn’t alone that night as several others were also stranded.
As to the stock I don’t recall being bothered, perhaps being young helped, but much as I now love steam the whole environment was much dirtier back then.

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Western Sunset · 9 Jul 2026

Overnight trains where you could get your head down; Bristol to Milford Haven behind a Hymek springs to mind. Also Derby to St Pancras; usually waking up around the Weetabix factory at Burton Latimer with a compartment to oneself.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Rescars · 9 Jul 2026

Fond memories indeed of the comfort of Mk1 compartment stock, especially when not crowded - ideally not even shared. They may have been a bit grubby from time to time, but they were so full of charm. Splendid seats, especially in first class, great views, spacious WCs, cosy lighting and a welcome fug from the heating in winter and the possibility of a serious blow through of freshish air in summer. And the sounds of the loco thrashing away up front was exhilarating too. But oh my goodness, the quality (or not) of the ride! Sometimes even being able to read was challenging, never mind trying to get a bit of work done and draft a document longhand. Always amazed me how guards' and chief stewards' logs were so legible!

Helvellyn · 9 Jul 2026

The refurbished Mk 3s got it right in Standard Class - usually ten bays of four and eighteen airline style pairs. Shame Mark 2Fs never got a mix of airline and bays. As a solo traveller you could often have an airline pair to yourself; not so much a bay.

Brightonboy · 9 Jul 2026

Rescars said:
Fond memories indeed of the comfort of Mk1 compartment stock, especially when not crowded - ideally not even shared. They may have been a bit grubby from time to time, but they were so full of charm. Splendid seats, especially in first class, great views, spacious WCs, cosy lighting and a welcome fug from the heating in winter and the possibility of a serious blow through of freshish air in summer. And the sounds of the loco thrashing away up front was exhilarating too. But oh my goodness, the quality (or not) of the ride! Sometimes even being able to read was challenging, never mind trying to get a bit of work done and draft a document longhand. Always amazed me how guards' and chief stewards' logs were so legible!

That takes me back to my serious rail travelling days in the late 70's/early 80's. Sleeping in a compartment on overnight services (and the early hours call at New Street where all the mails and parcels were swapped around). The London - Brighton non-stops, usually in a CIG/BIG/CIG formation but sometimes much less smooth in a CEP or BEP.
I have made a few rail trips in the last couple of years (mainly GWR, TL, GA & Southern) and, frankly, whilst the stock is internally perhaps cleaner and better lit, they all felt bland and characterless (bar the atrocious state of TL's toilets). Even the stations lack character - the larger ones seem to have forgotten they are stations and are pseudo shopping malls.

yorksrob · 10 Jul 2026

Brightonboy said:
That takes me back to my serious rail travelling days in the late 70's/early 80's. Sleeping in a compartment on overnight services (and the early hours call at New Street where all the mails and parcels were swapped around). The London - Brighton non-stops, usually in a CIG/BIG/CIG formation but sometimes much less smooth in a CEP or BEP.
I have made a few rail trips in the last couple of years (mainly GWR, TL, GA & Southern) and, frankly, whilst the stock is internally perhaps cleaner and better lit, they all felt bland and characterless (bar the atrocious state of TL's toilets). Even the stations lack character - the larger ones seem to have forgotten they are stations and are pseudo shopping malls.

And frankly tungsten lighting was a lot more warm and cosy than the operating theatre style lighting of modern rolling stock.

Taunton · 10 Jul 2026

Helvellyn said:
The refurbished Mk 3s got it right in Standard Class - usually ten bays of four and eighteen airline style pairs. Shame Mark 2Fs never got a mix of airline and bays. As a solo traveller you could often have an airline pair to yourself; not so much a bay.

Were some of the FO Mk2F not later in life converted to outer suburban SO seating, going from spacious bays to bus style seating, with a few bays left in. routes like Northampton to Euston.

Sun Chariot · 10 Jul 2026

Taunton said:
Were some of the FO Mk2F not later in life converted to outer suburban SO seating, going from spacious bays to bus style seating, with a few bays left in. routes like Northampton to Euston.

Yes. 6400 series Mk2F SO (ex FO) had high-density seating with the majority in a front-to-back "airline" style I saw them in use, behind a "blunt nose forward" class 91, a Doncaster - Kings Cross working back in Augist 1988.

6200 series Mk2d SO (ex FO) also had a high-density seating, albeit with fewer airline seats than in 6400 series.

Taunton · 10 Jul 2026

It was always an issue of the 'Cascade' approach, that the initial mainstream routes for new stock had a higher first class provision than routes the carriages later dropped down to.

hexagon789 · 10 Jul 2026

Sun Chariot said:
Yes. 6400 series Mk2F SO (ex FO) had high-density seating with the majprity in a front-to-back "airline" style I saw them in use, behind a "blunt nose forward" class 91, a Doncaster - Kings Cross working back in Augist 1998.

6200 series Mk2d SO (ex FO) also had a high-density seating, albeit with fewer airline seats than in 6400 series.

The 2F ones seated 74 in their new configuration, many ended their lives on Anglia in their Mk2 push-pull sets which usually had two of these vehicles.

The 2D ones seated 58 and were originally intended for XC services, but I don't think ever ended up on such duties.

JohnofWessex · 10 Jul 2026

Ist Generation DMU Bogs anyone

Many seemed not to have been flushed since they were built

yorksrob · 10 Jul 2026

JohnofWessex said:
Ist Generation DMU Bogs anyone

Many seemed not to have been flushed since they were built

Loos which you could pee in in perpetuity without them locking themselves out of use at the drop of a hat .....

LMS 4F · 10 Jul 2026

Surely the big difference for the enthusiast was the variety and number of locos to see. On my first trip to Bletchley in the late 1950s I saw over 100 locos of many different classes working all sorts of trains from Top rank expresses to humble two coach local trains.
Today at the risk of upsetting some people nearly 100 percent of passenger trains are powered coaches of one sort of another and what locos there are belong predominantly to one sort, the only variety being the paint jobs.
No doubt the modern railway is more efficient and has its good points but I would swap it all for the chance to see an LMS Garratt on its way to London with its load of coal or a double headed Summer Saturday holiday train through Bletchley with perhaps a Jubilee and a Scot with 17 coaches behind.

Helvellyn · 10 Jul 2026

Taunton said:
Were some of the FO Mk2F not later in life converted to outer suburban SO seating, going from spacious bays to bus style seating, with a few bays left in. routes like Northampton to Euston.

Yes, I was meaning the as-built ones (5908-6184), that were all table seating in bays of four.

Bahnopa · 11 Jul 2026

Shaw S Hunter said:
The only reason for going back to the 70's and 80's would be to relive the loco-bashing. Almost everything else is way better on today's railway. Stations are in much better condition, staff are much more customer friendly, information provision is incomparable (it barely existed back then) and on-train environments are more comfortable. And even if loco-haulage made a comeback it's unlikely the rolling stock would be basher-friendly. I say leave the past in the past, if you really want to relive it in some way visit a heritage railway.

I agree thoroughly with you, Shaw! Apart from the points you make, I would add that service frequency has improved no end. In the 1970s an evening out in York, for example, and a late train home on the Harrogate, Leeds, Darlington and Selby lines was out of the question.

pitdiver · 11 Jul 2026

The thing I remember about the 60/70s was the ability to send your luggage in advance. Drop it off at your local station a few days before you go on holiday and amazingly it would appear at your holiday lodgings. On the way back 2 weeks later have it collected and again a few days after getting home you could collect it from the same local station that you sent it from. Those were the days.

yorksrob · 11 Jul 2026

Bahnopa said:
I agree thoroughly with you, Shaw! Apart from the points you make, I would add that service frequency has improved no end. In the 1970s an evening out in York, for example, and a late train home on the Harrogate, Leeds, Darlington and Selby lines was out of the question.

Except on the Whitby line where the service is now dismal.

Being able to go for a day out there easily without a rigmarole trying to get back, would be bliss indeed.

Bahnopa · 11 Jul 2026

yorksrob said:
Except on the Whitby line where the service is now dismal.

Being able to go for a day out there easily without a rigmarole trying to get back, would be bliss indeed.

Agreed!

Rover · 12 Jul 2026

King's Cross to Aberdeen through the night in an SK - Ah, "to sleep perchance to dream" (Hamlet), not in this life anymore sadly but perhaps in the next!

thedbdiboy · 13 Jul 2026

The problem with looking into the past is that we want all the good bits without the bad bits. Personally, I loved the pre-aircon Mk2s - big picture windows with all bays round tables and a mix of 1st class saloons and compartments. But - for example - the Sleeper network predated the ability to actually spend the night in your own bed and still get somewhere by 9am on today's faster network. Smoking carriages - ugh! Modern catering on train is a mere shadow of itself - but station catering is much better.
The other thing that gets forgotten is just how much more crowded the network is. The plus is a much more frequent train service - the minus is that they are busy. Airline seats were unheard of before the Mk2 2nd open introduced 8 per carriage (and spoiled the window spacing...); I don't like them but they are very popular.

Sun Chariot · 13 Jul 2026

My dim memories of DMU travel, from latter-1970s to early 1990s: every carriage I rode in, was utterly grubby to varying degrees. Anyone whose fingers and clothing discovered the texture of that interior grime - the memory lingers long!
Loco-hauled coaching stock, even on wooden beaded Mk1 compartment stock, seemed cleaner than that.

When HST rakes were introduced, my first memories were very end of 1970s. I wasn't a fan of the (in second class) "cheap-feel" blue fabric on seats, nor the fixed armrests; and I detested the two rows of airline seats in the middle of the Mk3 TS; also the rows at the guard end of the TGS.
I remember the acrid smell of brake-dust, into Mk3 air-con, when the HST sets decelerated.

Then - mid-1980s - I endured ghastly Pacers and Sprinters. Clean, yes. Comfy, quiet - not in the slightest!

So my own (youthful) view of the future, was not as rose-tinted as some!

Brightonboy · 13 Jul 2026

Sun Chariot said:
My dim memories of DMU travel, from late-1970s to early 1990s: every carriage I rode in, was grubby to varying degrees. Anyone whose fingers and clothing discovered the texture of that interior grime - the memory lingers long!
Loco-hauled coaching stock, even on wooden beaded Mk1 compartment stock, seemed cleaner than that.
Then - mid-1980s - I endured ghastly Pacers and Sprinters. Clean, yes. Comfy, quiet - not in the slightest!

When HST rakes were introduced, my first memories were very end of 1970s. I wasn't a fan of the (in second class) "cheap-feel" blue fabric on seats, nor the fixed armrests; and I detested the two rows of airline seats in the middle of the Mk3 TS; also the rows at the guard end of the TGS. I remember the acrid smell of brake-dust, into Mk3 air-con, when the HST sets decelerated.

So my own (youthful) view of the future, was not as rose-tinted as some!

All very true, especially the brake smell which, iirc, was even discussed in the national press!

The exile · 13 Jul 2026

Brightonboy said:
All very true, especially the brake smell which, iirc, was even discussed in the national press!

As a 10-ish year old it took me a long time to associate that smell with the brakes - I thought it was coming from cooking burgers in the buffet car.

Mr. SW · 13 Jul 2026

JohnofWessex said:
Many seemed not to have been flushed since they were built

Ah. the standard Mk 1 toilet: light yellow formica walls, black hard rubber floor; generally blocked, smelling of stale P, no flush and no water in the sink. Happy Days!

Brightonboy · 13 Jul 2026

Mr. SW said:
Ah. the standard Mk 1 toilet: light yellow formica walls, black hard rubber floor; generally blocked, smelling of stale P, no flush and no water in the sink. Happy Days!

I seem to recall there was a large(ish) plug in the floor which if lifted revealed the sleepers passing below - never lifted one myself but saw a couple that had been.

181 · 13 Jul 2026

Mr. SW said:
Ah. the standard Mk 1 toilet: light yellow formica walls, black hard rubber floor; generally blocked, smelling of stale P, no flush and no water in the sink. Happy Days!

But still useable if your need was great enough, unlike modern train toilets which are prone to locking themselves out of use. (And I don't remember them being that bad in Mk 1s)

geoffk · 14 Jul 2026

In 1964 or 65 I had to get from Bristol to York and back in a day for a University interview. At that time, the furthest I could get with a Day Return was Birmingham so, departing on the 7.40 from Temple Meads, I rebooked at New Street, at Derby and again at Sheffield. I suppose it didn't occur to me to attempt to buy all four tickets at Temple Meads, but almost certainly it wasn't possible then. How much money was saved by doing this and what it would be worth today I've no idea. I think I managed to buy the Derby ticket at New Street and get back on the same train in the seven minutes wait there but I certainly had to wait for another train at Derby and again at Sheffield, so a journey of around seven hours to York. I would have had an afternoon interview and came back on the Newcastle - Bristol mail, getting into Temple Meads in the small hours, so a long day out which few would have attempted by train at that time.

The exile · 14 Jul 2026

181 said:
(And I don't remember them being that bad in Mk 1s)

Once they were cascaded down to regional duties they could be a bit unpleasant by Saturday evening. It was the floor stud flush on later stock that seemed more failure prone (or not understood) to me.

Merle Haggard · 14 Jul 2026

In earlier days I travelled in side-corridor coaches that seated three a side. There was plenty of space for each passenger - even an arm-rest between them.
By contrast in the modern railway world until very recently I had to endure an hour's journey to London or Birmingham on a 350/2 with seats theoretically for 3 but - although I'm still slim with a low, just into 'healthy' BMI - either squashed agains the wall, only half on the seat and overhanging the gangway or, worst of all, in the middle with fellow passengers' elbows under my chin. It was, of course, how the TOC could claim 'more seats to London and Birmingham...

Falcon1200 · 14 Jul 2026

Being able to do a week's Scottish Region railrover without spending a single night in, or pound on, hotel accommodation, thanks to the plethora of overnight trains (albeit changing from southbound to northbound in the early hours at Carlisle was fun....)

Merle Haggard said:
In earlier days I travelled in side-corridor coaches that seated three a side. There was plenty of space for each passenger - even an arm-rest between them.

Mark 1 compartment stock on some regions (Western, Southern?) was configured to seat 4 a side! But any compartment was great unless busy, or a fellow passenger was eating a smelly sandwich....

Winding back the railway clock

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