The Manchester Metrolink for one doesn’t gate its stops. It relies on roving ticket inspectors. No reason why that couldnt work on the SWM. And if those inspectors are not doing station work every couple of minutes they can be much more effective at checking tickets as soon as people get on.
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TfW class 398 Stadler Citylink tram trains
- Thread starter Bob Price
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Falcon1200
Established Member
Why would the depot even need to accommodate the entire fleet? Surely every single tram-train is not planned to return there each night and then head back out to the multiple originating points next morning.
Of the three valley's termini, only Treherbert has stabling. As for Cardiff, I don't believe it's planned to stable any at Canton(?). So all but a few will need to return to Taffs Well each night.
Cardiff123
Established Member
This ^^^^^^
I find it extremely difficult to believe that having a revenue inspector on every train, whose sole purpose is to check and sell tickets and assist passengers, is more expensive than a guard / conductor with full safety critical competency (and so much increased pay), who has to rush to operate the doors every few minutes.
Envoy
Established Member
- Joined
- 29 Aug 2014
- Messages
- 3,126
Here is a report from ITV Wales about the introduction of the 398’s:>
Tram Inn SB
Member
Not necessarily, revenue staff are significantly cheaper to employ than Guards.
Tram Inn SB
Member
398s will not enter Canton. Taff Wells will be there sole maintenance centre, with outstabling at Treherbert each night for a handful.
Once Cardiff Bay is fully operational there’ll be capacity to stable a few down there as required, although I suspect this might meet with security challenges.
Peter Sarf
Established Member
I agree, I was going to security must be a factor in where to stable the 398s..
Falcon1200
Established Member
Thanks. Hopefully there will not be any infrastructure faults preventing access to and from Taffs Well! There will presumably also have to be a fair amount of empty running at the start and end of each day's service.
No more than at the moment, as the early morning services from Merthy (1) and Aberdare (2) are formed of stock that has worked up ECS from Canton.
And again, the exposure to an infrastructure problem at Taffs Well is no greater than currently exists at Canton.
And again, the exposure to an infrastructure problem at Taffs Well is no greater than currently exists at Canton.
Robin Edwards
Member
- Joined
- 1 Dec 2013
- Messages
- 679
Saw 398022 & 023 out last week on training/testing runs around Pontypridd - otherwise all tucked up in Taff Wells
Tram Inn SB
Member
There’s one way and out of Taff Well I’ve some rather bespoke pointwork - Canton on the other hand has four ways to enter / exit the depot.
Travelling on the Valley Lines network yesterday it is clear the lack of toilets are going to be a significant problem. The Class 150 toilet was literally in constant use between Merthyr and Cardiff, often with queues of 3 or 4 people waiting.
I did see some toilets being built at specific locations - Merthyr Tydfil, Aberdare and Abercynon, but a lot of those travelling on weekends are groups, and they’re not going to want to leave the rest of their group behind to go and use the toilet at a station. Likewise, if the whole group did wait, it is not practical from a time sense to get off and wait at every few stations. Also, just one remote-controlled toilet at these locations isn’t going to be enough at times.
It wouldn’t surprise me if we saw an increase of ‘anti-social incidents’ on board with passengers finding other ways to go to the toilet. Particularly when alcohol is involved.
I did see some toilets being built at specific locations - Merthyr Tydfil, Aberdare and Abercynon, but a lot of those travelling on weekends are groups, and they’re not going to want to leave the rest of their group behind to go and use the toilet at a station. Likewise, if the whole group did wait, it is not practical from a time sense to get off and wait at every few stations. Also, just one remote-controlled toilet at these locations isn’t going to be enough at times.
It wouldn’t surprise me if we saw an increase of ‘anti-social incidents’ on board with passengers finding other ways to go to the toilet. Particularly when alcohol is involved.
Yet people, often drunk can manage to survive on an Elizabeth line service without toilets, even some of the tube lines for long journeys.
I would anticipate that the market would adjust eventually - it is engrained in London tube culture and has been forever. Although there are generally a lot more facilities readily available in London if needed prior to travel (and nearby during travel, if needed) compared to the Welsh Valleys.
Snow1964
Established Member
Do seem to belatedly decided not having toilets on tram trains or stations was not practical.
Although the limited number of nine extra locations won't all be ready in time which suggests it was an afterthought.
Transport for Wales enters final stages for tram-trains introduction
Transport for Wales (TfW) is entering the final stages of preparation ahead of the introduction of its first brand‑new tram‑trains on Pontypridd to Cardiff Bay services this summer.
The full list of toilets is on this link :
Cardiff Central platforms 1 to 8 (will 398s use any other platforms ?)
Cardiff Queen Street platform 4
Pontypridd, Trefforest (temporary whilst refurbishing)
Radyr (temporary in car park from 22 June)
Abercynon, Aberdare, Cwmbach, Llwynypia, Merthyr Tydfil, Merthyr Vale, Penrhiwceiber, Tonypandy, Treorchy, (being added)
Also Porth bus Interchange
Toilets | Transport for Wales
Transport for Wales | Buy Cheap Train Tickets and Check Train Times
tfw.wales
Don't know how each has progressed, but hopefully someone local can update status of each of the 14 locations
If it goes horribly wrong then I can see TFW adding more toilets. North of Radyr there's 26 station, with 14 of them having toilets. If most, or all, have toilet facilities then there's no need to get off the train and wait for the next one. People can access the toilet before they board the train, or when they get off at their stop. Those that cannot wait that long can get off and wait for the next train, but still will be a relatively small minority.
Bob Price
Established Member
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- 1,243
I know the toilet situation has been done to death but please remember people have adapted in other places and will on these lines. At least there will be toilets, try finding a toilet at the average tube station!
I can only say about the Aberdare line.Do seem to belatedly decided not having toilets on tram trains or stations was not practical.
Although the limited number of nine extra locations won't all be ready in time which suggests it was an afterthought.
Transport for Wales enters final stages for tram-trains introduction
Transport for Wales (TfW) is entering the final stages of preparation ahead of the introduction of its first brand‑new tram‑trains on Pontypridd to Cardiff Bay services this summer.news.tfw.wales
The full list of toilets is on this link :
Cardiff Central platforms 1 to 8 (will 398s use any other platforms ?)
Cardiff Queen Street platform 4
Pontypridd, Trefforest (temporary whilst refurbishing)
Radyr (temporary in car park from 22 June)
Abercynon, Aberdare, Cwmbach, Llwynypia, Merthyr Tydfil, Merthyr Vale, Penrhiwceiber, Tonypandy, Treorchy, (being added)
Also Porth bus Interchange
Toilets | Transport for Wales
Transport for Wales | Buy Cheap Train Tickets and Check Train Times
Don't know how each has progressed, but hopefully someone local can update status of each of the 14 locations
Aberdare - toilet is open for use.
Abercynon -Externally appears to be finished, but still fenced off and not yet open for use.
Penrhiwceiber - Foundations for toilet have been layed (I think it was at least 2 years ago), but no further progess and have become a pool of stagnant water.
Cwmbach - No sign of any toilets being built.
Tram Inn SB
Member
There’s actually 5 ways on / off Canton.
Normal operations onto depot via CWM2 Signal (Cardiff Central end) - DN E&C Road.
Normal operations off depot via CF2324 signal (Cardiff Central end) UP E&C Road.
Normal operations off depot via 7416 GPL Signal (UP Barry Relief - Cardiff Central end).
When requested onto depot via CWM3 (Cardiff Central end) DN direction UP E&C Road via Shunter release.
When requested onto depot via CF7416 (UP Barry Relief) via Shunter release.
During possessions of UP/DN E&C Roads via In/OUT via Leckwith Ground Frame via Line E at Leckwith with Shunter manually operating GF.
IN/OUT “Swansea End” (Ninian Park) CF7817 & 7819 a few booked moves out during the early morning.
So, plenty of back up in relation to access to Canton, unlike Taff Well which has one IN/OUT option, although both roads are vi directional to both the UP and DN Lines at Taff Wells station.
Daniel Boone
Member
This is the case now but I'm sure you know there was a planned second junction facing down toward Cardiff. Do you have any idea whether engineering work retained or enabled provision for this second cord?
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Having looked into it, the second set of roads were dropped due to the presence of "significant utilities".
https://rctcbc.moderngov.co.uk/documents/s32993/20 0806.pdf?LLL=0
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Peter Sarf
Established Member
I think it is a very different depot layout in reality compared to that plan. It is a bit hard to compare.
Yes, that site plan is from March 2018 and was associated with planning application 18/0314/HYB. The plan was revised in application 19/0380/RVOC in April 2019, as the second access point, the 'Y' junction under Fford Bleddyn required the road to be raised on a 6m embankment. The primary access point was changed to be dual tracks at the south end of the site that curved north under Cardiff Road to join the line, and a spur off one of these tracks that ran south under a second bridge on Cardiff Road alongside the sliproad that links Cardiff Road to the A470 (see the plan here).
The south-facing link was dropped in application 20/0806/16 in 2022 due to the 'significant utilities' issue. Looking at the utilities surveys for the earlier applications, there is a 9-inch water main that runs between the A470 slip road and the railway to a junction where Cardiff Road meets Fford Bleddyn, and then continues along the sliproad to the A470 with a 4-inch branch that heads north under Cardiff Road (see the Welsh Water survey plan here). This is exactly where the bridge was going to be constructed to carry Cardiff Road over the south-facing link. I believe there is also a gas main in that area too, that runs through the old Garth Works site onto Fford Bleddyn and onto Cardiff Road (see the Wales & West Utilities survey plan here - it looks like it was routed under the old railway sidings in the site).
norbitonflyer
Established Member
Is there a reason why the junction that has been kept couldn't have also had a south facing chord, running alongside the A470 slip road? There seems to be room there.
VR494
Member
There was a combination of factors which had an effect on the final design, this the one we see today laid out before us. These included:
- Land ownership disputes with a local hauler
- Underground utilities that could not be relocated
- Amey supposedly did the survey and drawings using google images from their head office, this included the drawings of the tight curves - without visiting the site
If they had known Barry would have been available so quickly I don't think it would have been built. And the 398's could have been kept in Cardiff down the bay as part of cross rail.
The curves in their design are very tight and put a lot of stress on the units and the infrastructure itself - the underground footings of the well has cracked twice already it's been mentioned, and that's before services start running to capacity. The curves will also need replacing a lot more often than thought. And good luck if the points fail!
It's looking likely now Taffs Well will be taking all off 36 units and an additional order for 10-13 units for Treherbert is currently being discussed. Then if funds are approved for the Coryton capacity increase, along with the wires to Cogan, then the 756/0 fleet will be moving over to mainline as mentioned. They also need the additonal feeder station at Ninian Park to come online to boost OLE capciaty.
Speaking to those in the know, I don't think we will be seeing one this month, 398029 currently has no working horns and failed out on the network.
I thought the 756 were for the Caerphilly line.
Tram Inn SB
Member
They are, and will remain.
There is no money left to wire to Cogan, you’d either have to construct an extension lead from the network rail wires at Canton, and then fees up HV cable through Canton depot (good luck) or wire off Cardiff West Junction onto the Barry lines, there is no provision to do so. So you’d need to probably have new wire runs back through the station as well.
All the cost and disruption for what ?
Before fantasy wiring programs with no benefit are pushed, maybe install real benefit items like a new facing junction into Barry depot from the Barry Docks direction to remove the Z shunt the 8/9 units a night have to do to get in and out !
Simply isn’t going to happen.
As for additional 398s….maybe get the ones they have working first ?
56xx
Member
756/1s for Rhymney Barry & VOG. 756/0s on Coryton Caerphilly Penarth.
Ah my bad sorry