Free OAP bus travel to be scrapped?

[MidnightFlyer]

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/call-axe-free-oap-bus-travel-104309566.html

Pensioners should be stripped of free bus travel as part of £15 billion of immediate extra savings to boost the economy, a think-tank has said.
The Social Market Foundation said extra austerity measures projected for 2016/17 should be brought forward and the money ploughed into infrastructure.
It said carefully targeting where the axe fell would boost growth without increasing borrowing or damaging investor confidence - despite the "polarised and simplified" political debate.
The £1 billion estimated annual cost of OAP travel passes was one low-priority item of spending that did nothing to improve the economy and should be scrapped, it said in a report.
Another £1 billion could be found by barring savers from keeping any more than £15,000 in tax-free ISA savings accounts and £2.4 billion from means-testing child benefit payments.
Almost half of the £15 billion could be raised by halving higher rate pension tax relief and the rest from taking away winter fuel payments and free television licences from better-off pensioners.
SMF director Ian Mulheirn, who wrote the report, said: "The OBR's game-changing assessment last November that there will have to be a further £15 billion of cuts by 2016/17 creates the opportunity for a potent growth strategy within the existing borrowing plans.
"By changing the composition of Government taxation and spending, rather than altering the size and speed of cuts, the Chancellor can make his existing plan much more growth-friendly."
"Our plan would unambiguously strengthen the Government's deficit cutting credibility and increase economic output without borrowing a penny more. That would go a long way towards reassuring the holders of UK Government debt as well as potentially taking tens if not hundreds of thousands of people out of unemployment.
"By refreshing our infrastructure, this plan would also lay the sorely needed foundations of the new economy that must emerge from the crash."

As this might get heated, I'll say 'no comment' on my behalf. I'm only posting to draw people's attention to it.

 

[ainsworth74]

Hmm not sure I'd be in favour of totally scrapping free bus passes for OAPs. I'd rather see it means tested (so perhaps you have at one end free bus travel in the middle a range of discount cards and at the other end nothing) and also limited geographically so it is no longer valid on all local buses all over the country but perhaps only those buses serving the local authority where the OAP lives.

I'm also not opposed to means testing winter fuel allowance and free tv licences.

 

[Ivo]

I'm not saying this because I have such a pass, I'm saying it because it is the truth. Any Government that withdraws the Free Travel Scheme can expect to lose 90% of its vote from those who have them.

I highly doubt it will happen any time soon.

Oh, and technically it might not bring anything to the economy - but the indirect benefits are massive. Consider for instance the reduced costs of running NHS Care Homes when half the people that live in them are off on a bus journey somewhere. Similarly, these people will spend money in ways that they wouldn't usually, courtesy of being able to access said facility through their bus pass.

 

[MetroDriver]

I'd rather see it means tested (so perhaps you have at one end free bus travel in the middle a range of discount cards and at the other end nothing) and also limited geographically so it is no longer valid on all local buses all over the country but perhaps only those buses serving the local authority where the OAP lives.

Couldn't have put it better myself.... that's how it should have been administered from the start.

Am I biased in my agreement with the above quote? Well as I work in public transport I could be, but I like to see things done fairly for all too. The benefits of local free travel are obvious even to me, and we see a lot of that on our Metro trams every day. BUT - and this is the thing that frustrates me, using the free bus pass to travel the length and breadth of the UK just because you can? That is taking the proverbial.... and doesn't benefit the local retailers in the area where the person lives, and where the pass is funded from!

To add to the confusion, we quite often get people from outside our "Centro" area trying to use their free BUS pass on our Trams (not permitted). Some refuse to believe what we tell them, some kick up a right fuss, and rarely do we get those willing to pay the correct fare instead.... Yes these passes do allow travel on SOME tram systems (Croydon as an example), but it's a national BUS pass :roll:

On the other side of the coin, we do actually get some who travel up and down our line just to get into somewhere warm.... honestly! We have asked and that's what we're being told by them when we wonder why they're on the tram for hours....

 

[madannie77]

Couldn't have put it better myself.... that's how it should have been administered from the start.

Am I biased in my agreement with the above quote? Well as I work in public transport I could be, but I like to see things done fairly for all too. The benefits of local free travel are obvious even to me, and we see a lot of that on our Metro trams every day. BUT - and this is the thing that frustrates me, using the free bus pass to travel the length and breadth of the UK just because you can? That is taking the proverbial.... and doesn't benefit the local retailers in the area where the person lives, and where the pass is funded from!

To add to the confusion, we quite often get people from outside our "Centro" area trying to use their free BUS pass on our Trams (not permitted). Some refuse to believe what we tell them, some kick up a right fuss, and rarely do we get those willing to pay the correct fare instead.... Yes these passes do allow travel on SOME tram systems (Croydon as an example), but it's a national BUS pass :roll:

On the other side of the coin, we do actually get some who travel up and down our line just to get into somewhere warm.... honestly! We have asked and that's what we're being told by them when we wonder why they're on the tram for hours....

I would ride up and down for hours, but that's because I love trams and buses, not because I need to keep warm

I don't think means testing would work: where would the cut off point be and how much would it cost to administer. Would every OAP be assessed just once or every year, for example. Like all means-tested "benefits" it would leave those just above the cut-off point considerably worse off than those just below it. Not that I think all the "benefits" mentioned in the report should be universal, but means testing is such a can of worms that I can't see any government contemplating it.

 

[Ivo]

Before I start this post, know that I have deliberately jumbled up MetroDriver's post to make my responses easier to follow. I haven't edited it in any way though. Also, please don't take this response as being overly argumentative.

I'd rather see it means tested

Couldn't have put it better myself.... that's how it should have been administered from the start.

Agreed again - but only in the case of OAPs. I'm only 22 and I have a Pass; should I be means tested? (Wouldn't matter if I was to be fair; I would still qualify for the Pass, and not because I'm a poor student either.)

To add to the confusion, we quite often get people trying to use their free BUS pass on our Trams (not permitted). Some refuse to believe what we tell them, some kick up a right fuss, and rarely do we get those willing to pay the correct fare instead.... Yes these passes do allow travel on SOME tram systems (Croydon as an example), but it's a national BUS pass :roll:

All or none is the way to go. I know I can use my Pass in Sheffield - but not in Manchester. Not much use is it?

On the other side of the coin, we do actually get some who travel up and down our line just to get into somewhere warm.... honestly! We have asked and that's what we're being told by them when we wonder why they're on the tram for hours....

There are two things that give the Pass a bad reputation and this kind of behaviour is one of them. If you want to go somewhere warm, go home! The other is of course travelling literally one stop - which is a nuisance for all, including other passengers.

Am I biased in my agreement with the above quote? Well as I work in public transport I could be, but I like to see things done fairly for all too. The benefits of local free travel are obvious even to me, and we see a lot of that on our Metro trams every day. BUT - and this is the thing that frustrates me, using the free bus pass to travel the length and breadth of the UK just because you can? That is taking the proverbial.... and doesn't benefit the local retailers in the area where the person lives, and where the pass is funded from!

This is the bit I disagree with. Yes, OK, travelling like that just because you can isn't reasonable. The furthest I have gone on my Pass from Bath is Oxford, and from Southend is Ipswich - and in both cases I contributed to the economy at the other end of the journey instead of doing sod all on arrival. But in that sense it is no different to driving or paying for travel; it still doesn't benefit the local economy. (OK, so in August I will be going north on it - but that is for charity.)

On the other hand, back in May I was due to travel to Portsmouth one Sunday, when the Thursday night before I learned that my mother had gone into hospital with a hernia. I had to get home - but couldn't afford two separate train fares. I had to go all the way to Southend on my Pass (and poay from there to Portsmouth). In this instance, what do you expect us to do? Completely ignore a family emergency?

-------------------

One last point. If this country is trying to make itself appear disability-friendly, what sort of signal would it be sending out if the Disability Passes were withdrawn too? Are these even affected by the "think-tank" idea?

(P.S.: Such organisations are often nothing more than ideologists that dislike any and all Governments. I don't pay that much attention to them.)

 

[Aictos]

Hmm not sure I'd be in favour of totally scrapping free bus passes for OAPs. I'd rather see it means tested (so perhaps you have at one end free bus travel in the middle a range of discount cards and at the other end nothing) and also limited geographically so it is no longer valid on all local buses all over the country but perhaps only those buses serving the local authority where the OAP lives.

I'm also not opposed to means testing winter fuel allowance and free tv licences.

Fully agree,

 

[90019]

I think I'd prefer a system of OAPs paying a much reduced fare, rather than just getting to travel for free.

 

[jopsuk]

There is an issue that take up by those who would eligible and need things such as Winter Fuel Allowance would be lower than it should be with means testing- vulnerable, poor old people can be put off by paperwork to their detriment.

Anyway, this is just an idea from a thinktank that isn't government-aligned. So it is basically meaningless.

 

[Deerfold]

Hmm not sure I'd be in favour of totally scrapping free bus passes for OAPs. I'd rather see it means tested (so perhaps you have at one end free bus travel in the middle a range of discount cards and at the other end nothing).

Of course then you have the delays whilst the driver works out what % discount to apply to a ticket instead of just a quick validity check (except where there's ITSO readers - but our local ones are slower than when the driver checked the ticket).

 

[Wolfie]

Hmm not sure I'd be in favour of totally scrapping free bus passes for OAPs. I'd rather see it means tested (so perhaps you have at one end free bus travel in the middle a range of discount cards and at the other end nothing) and also limited geographically so it is no longer valid on all local buses all over the country but perhaps only those buses serving the local authority where the OAP lives.

I'm also not opposed to means testing winter fuel allowance and free tv licences.

Three problems (without evening thinking too hard):
a Means testing costs an absolute fortune and is horribly bureaucratic to implement (could actually cost more than is saved by restricting access);
b Once again the ****less get help as well as the genuinely deserving while those who look after themselves get nothing - not a great incentive to save....;
c In many cases the restriction by local authority area is not only illogical (eg a London borough boundaries) but would heavily impact on people (does every council area have a hospital within it for example).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If this country is trying to make itself appear disability-friendly, what sort of signal would it be sending out if the Disability Passes were withdrawn too? Are these even affected by the "think-tank" idea?

You confuse two different concepts here, namely the ability of disabled people to access public transport and who actually pays the fare when they actually do access such transport.

With respect to the former I fully support making transport accessible. With respect to the latter why should someone who is disabled and working have free access to public transport when a non-disabled worker has to pay his/her own fares?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Unclear why "foxtrot echo charlie kilo" got censored!!!!

Oh, just thought "Father Ted"!!!!!

 

[Mutant Lemming]

What about having a national flat rate of a £1 ? This would deter some unnecessary journies and provide some revenue to help maintain the continually dwindling 'socially necessary' services. I have travelled on numerous, practically full, bus services and been the only fare paying passenger. If all pass holders payed a £1 then there may at least be some chance of the service being retained.

 

[MetroDriver]

Before I start this post, know that I have deliberately jumbled up MetroDriver's post to make my responses easier to follow. I haven't edited it in any way though. Also, please don't take this response as being overly argumentative.

I haven't got an issue with anything you've responded to - this is an open debate after all.....

 

[brompton rail]

What about having a national flat rate of a £1 ? This would deter some unnecessary journies and provide some revenue to help maintain the continually dwindling 'socially necessary' services. I have travelled on numerous, practically full, bus services and been the only fare paying passenger. If all pass holders payed a £1 then there may at least be some chance of the service being retained.

Not really, because the Government would just adjust the payment to bus operators downwards to take account of the £1 collected.

 

[SS4]

Not really, because the Government would just adjust the payment to bus operators downwards to take account of the £1 collected.

It's not just the money to operators though, it's that seats are taken up meaning paying passengers must either stand or couldn't get on and that embarking/disembarking is slowed causing delays.
It's not the dawn of the nearly dead for nothing

Perhaps some sort of off-peak bus pass would be better with a supplement if one needs to travel during peak times. Mainly though I still feel it's enforcement which is needed

 

[northwichcat]

The Chester city shuttle costs Cheshire West & Chester council more to subside now it's £1 with Aintree Coachlines unless you're an OAP, than when it was free for all with First Chester*.

* The subsidy for the free shuttle was split between the council, Merseyrail, Northern Rail, Arriva Trains Wales and Virgin Trains. The free shuttle was withdrawn because Aintree Coachlines applied for a non-subsided route but that costs the council more because of most of the passengers being OAPs.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Perhaps some sort of off-peak bus pass would be better with a supplement if one needs to travel during peak times. Mainly though I still feel it's enforcement which is needed

I thought the whole idea was before 09:30 on weekdays the OAP pass allows them to travel at child fare and after 09:30 it's free.

 

[Badger]

I have never liked the system and believe it should go.

Age is not a good means to test by. Age shouldn't even come into it if it is means tested. Ability to walk, drive, cycle, or other means, ability to pay one's own fare, usage, family, etc, should all come into play.

Why?

Because there are a lot of people who are not elderley who are more isolated than some of the elderley.

Ageism should take no part in law. It is a blurry line at best. One 80 year old person could have entirely different circumstances to another 80 year old.

Note that I am not saying they don't deserve it. Indeed, under proper means testing, a good majority would probably still have their passes. I question, however, whether there are some people below the 60 line who need it more than some over the 60 line.

 

[SS4]

The Chester city shuttle costs Cheshire West & Chester council more to subside now it's £1 with Aintree Coachlines unless you're an OAP, than when it was free for all with First Chester*.

* The subsidy for the free shuttle was split between the council, Merseyrail, Northern Rail, Arriva Trains Wales and Virgin Trains. The free shuttle was withdrawn because Aintree Coachlines applied for a non-subsided route but that costs the council more because of most of the passengers being OAPs.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I thought the whole idea was before 09:30 on weekdays the OAP pass allows them to travel at child fare and after 09:30 it's free.

Not in the West Midlands. They're not allowed before 09:30 on weekdays but it's free travel until the end of service (including trains and tram for local holders)

I have never liked the system and believe it should go.

Age is not a good means to test by. Age shouldn't even come into it if it is means tested. Ability to walk, drive, cycle, or other means, ability to pay one's own fare, usage, family, etc, should all come into play.

Why?

Because there are a lot of people who are not elderley who are more isolated than some of the elderley.

Ageism should take no part in law. It is a blurry line at best. One 80 year old person could have entirely different circumstances to another 80 year old.

Note that I am not saying they don't deserve it. Indeed, under proper means testing, a good majority would probably still have their passes. I question, however, whether there are some people below the 60 line who need it more than some over the 60 line.

I agree with the principle but how would you enforce it?

 

[Wyvern]

I thought the whole idea was before 09:30 on weekdays the OAP pass allows them to travel at child fare and after 09:30 it's free.

There's no facility to use the Over-60 card during peak times unless there's a local arrangement.

It does seem odd to me for people to get these benefits at 60 when they are still working. Indeed some folk in Leicestershire have donated their Winter Fuel Allowance to Age-UK

 

[northwichcat]

These obviously aren't concrete plans. Just noticed in the original link:

Another £1 billion could be found by barring savers from keeping any more than £15,000 in tax-free ISA savings accounts

How exactly would that work when many people already have over £15,000 invested and preventing interest payments taking the balance over £15,000?

 

[SS4]

If the government really wanted to save money they'd tax religious institutions and tax avoidance/evasion, Going after the less fortunate in society sounds rather familiar...

but I digress, the OAP bus pass isn't all that expensive but would be interesting to see what happens

 

[Deerfold]

There's no facility to use the Over-60 card during peak times unless there's a local arrangement.

It does seem odd to me for people to get these benefits at 60 when they are still working. Indeed some folk in Leicestershire have donated their Winter Fuel Allowance to Age-UK

Of course it's no longer an over-60s card. The age at which you can claim the card is going up in line with state pension age changes.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If the government really wanted to save money they'd tax religious institutions and tax avoidance/evasion, Going after the less fortunate in society sounds rather familiar...

but I digress, the OAP bus pass isn't all that expensive but would be interesting to see what happens

Ah that #6 billion Vodaphone have avoided/delayed? That wouldn't go far surely...

 

[northwichcat]

The Daily Whail has jumped on the story: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ays-leading-think-tank.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

 

[Deerfold]

The Daily Whail has jumped on the story: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ays-leading-think-tank.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

There's a surprise.

 

[transmanche]

There's no facility to use the Over-60 card during peak times unless there's a local arrangement.

London Boroughs fund free transport at any time on all TfL services (buses/tram/Tube/DLR/Overground and some NR services[*]). Free travel on other NR routes is available except 04:30-09:29 Mon-Fri.

It must be one of the most generous schemes in the UK.


[*]IIRC, those NR routes where TfL fares apply.

 

[Wyvern]

Thanks to Ken and Boris ???

 

[Mutant Lemming]

London Boroughs fund free transport at any time on all TfL services (buses/tram/Tube/DLR/Overground and some NR services[*]). Free travel on other NR routes is available except 04:30-09:29 Mon-Fri.

It must be one of the most generous schemes in the UK.


[*]IIRC, those NR routes where TfL fares apply.

Over 60's, under 16's, certain students up to 18, disabled, 19'000 TfL staff, 50'000+ police (I think Essex, Herts, Bucks and Surrey forces as well as the Met) - what percentage of London's travelling public actually PAY to travel on the system ?

 

[Badger]

I'm sorry but I consider that way too much. They give bus, tram, tube, dlr, and overground travel for free to a (relatively large) percentage of the population, while everyone else has to pay. Why not give everybody free bus travel and charge for the rest. Seems a lot fairer.

 

[Stats]

These obviously aren't concrete plans.

Lets be clear what this is. This is a report by a thinktank whose job it is to generate political debate. The main purpose of the report is the suggestion that to create growth the Government should bring forward the additional £15bn of cuts it says is needed after the election to meet its deficit reduction plan and use it now for infrastructure spending in order to create growth. The specific policy proposals which the media have jumped on were merely suggestions as to where that £15bn could come from without affecting growth and are not the core purpose of the report.

 

[Ivo]

The Daily Whail has jumped on the story: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ays-leading-think-tank.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

They would :roll: They are being very critical of the idea, of course. not that I need to say this.

Seriously (or perhaps not!) though, is that a Bath bus in the picture? It looks like it says "13 Bathford" (which does match the 13 here) - and the architecture certainly looks like it belongs here. The people are also coming from a Morrison's, and there is a Morrison's on our 13 route. It's also the correct kind of vehicle - a First-operated Pointer Dart.

Just another reason to not like the Daily Fail