Free OAP bus travel to be scrapped?

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Anyway, this is just an idea from a thinktank that isn't government-aligned. So it is basically meaningless.

Well said. There is nothing like a good piece of "scaremongering" from such agencies to obtain as much publicity as possible for their own views.

Was there not a promise made by certain political parties before the last election about the retention of the NTCP system?

 

[HSTEd]

Why exactly do lenders need reassuring of the UK Governments commitments to balancing the budget.....

Inflation adjusted bond yields went negative a few weeks ago. This is simply smash the state for the sake of smashing the state.

 

[transmanche]

Thanks to Ken and Boris ???

No. As I said, it's funded by the London Boroughs, not the GLA.

 

[neilmc]

No chance of scrapping the free bus pass.

Pensioners are keen to vote, and any government which took their passes away would be hammered. And people who aren't quite pensioners yet but were looking forward to a few freebies in (not so very) later life would hammer them as well.

I'm not sure what real saving there'd be, an empty bus doesn't cost much less to run that a full one and daytime off-peak services would be savagely cut to evening frequencies In some areas, that would mean none at all) if there were no pensioners travelling around.

It's worth mentioning that if you're a pensioner and travel to Hungary you get free travel on bus, train, tram and goodness knows what else if you're an EU citizen.

 

[Ferret]

From the front line, I can tell you these passes are subject to some misuse. I'd like to see a nominal fare charged for each rail journey - say a pound. That would stop those who think a GMPTE pass is valid on a train all the way to Bournemouth.........!

 

[transmanche]

Over 60's, under 16's, certain students up to 18, disabled, 19'000 TfL staff, 50'000+ police (I think Essex, Herts, Bucks and Surrey forces as well as the Met) - what percentage of London's travelling public actually PAY to travel on the system ?

I don't know about the home counties forces, but the Met Police pay a contribution to TfL for the free travel (approx £8m a year). Bob Crowe (yes, him!) says "Every Met officer who uses free travel on buses, Tubes and trains intervenes on average three times a year to stop or prevent trouble". (And that's the real reason for the police free travel perk, it's a lot cheaper than paying for more BTP.)

The reason for free bus travel for under 16s is to persuade more parents to send their kids to school on the bus, rather than driving them. This reducing congestion and pollution.

According to this FOI request, there are around 1.1 million Freedom Cards in use. And the mean average card use is 300 individual bus journeys and 50 individual tube journeys per year.

 

[Greenback]

Lets be clear what this is. This is a report by a thinktank whose job it is to generate political debate. The main purpose of the report is the suggestion that to create growth the Government should bring forward the additional £15bn of cuts it says is needed after the election to meet its deficit reduction plan and use it now for infrastructure spending in order to create growth. The specific policy proposals which the media have jumped on were merely suggestions as to where that £15bn could come from without affecting growth and are not the core purpose of the report.

Quite right. I was about to say the same thing!

I have said before on here that I support free bus travel for elderly people, but I do not think that the qualifying criteria should be set in stone.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Forcing all authorities to administer a national scheme costs them money which they then cut from the rest of the transport budget resulting in a loss of the very services the pass holders would wish to use. Warrington cut all Sunday evening buses effectively putting a curfew on people who rely on bus travel. A free pass is no use if there are no services to use it on.

 

[button_boxer]

While the idea of limiting free travel to the "local" area sounds simple enough, as soon as you set boundaries (no matter where they are) there will be people who need to travel across them.

My parents-in-law live in the Hope Valley (Derbyshire County Council). Their nearest major urban centre is Sheffield. Before the national scheme there were local arrangements in place for Derbyshire and Sheffield pass holders to get their respective concessions on cross-border services, but only to and from their home area. Someone on a Derbyshire pass could get the bus into Sheffield city centre but could not then get any concession on the bus from the city centre to the hospital they actually wanted to get to.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

From the front line, I can tell you these passes are subject to some misuse. I'd like to see a nominal fare charged for each rail journey - say a pound. That would stop those who think a GMPTE pass is valid on a train all the way to Bournemouth.........!

I think that you are confusing matters somewhat here. The TfGM (successor to GMPTE) version of the NTCP pass is only valid for rail travel within the administered boundary of that organisation after 0930 Monday to Friday and at all times on Saturday, Sunday and on Bank Holidays. That particular pass has no validity for rail travel anywhere outside the boundary of the TfGM administered area. Anyone attempting to use such a pass for rail travel all the way to Bournemouth as you describe would be leaving themselves open to the force of the railway by-laws that many people on the "Ticketing" part of this forum know so well.

I live not so very many miles south of the administered TfGM rail area, on the Macclesfield line, but my NTCP is issued by my local Cheshire area authority and as such, is not valid for rail travel at any time in the TfGM administered area.

Are you confusing matters with rail travel to Bournemouth by the use of the Senior Citizen Railcard, which does give a 34% discount on the cost of rail travel, but the holder has to pay £28.00 per annum ( or £65.00 for the three-year version that is only available on-line).

 

[pablo]

Take my bus pass away and it won't make the slightest difference, to me, because I find the thing is useless. But it will take the subsidy away from the bus companies.

There is a preponderance of anti-pensioner measures in these 'thinks' which would amount to a stealth tax on one sector of the population. Not a healthy proposition. Do they stop to 'think', f'instance, that pensioners are subsidising borrowers presently by getting abysmal interest rates on savings? There's no end to facets like this.

Better that the govenmint reduce their take of the GNP. It's grossly inflated. That way subsidies all around would disappear. After all; we're all in it together, aren't we?

 

[Bill EWS]

I take it that these bus, and other services have agreed to whatever Government/Council have offered as the fixed sum for accepting so-called 'free' travel. That surely means these companies are getting enough annual cash to run these services. They would not have accepted the deal in the first place if they were not.

As this cash comes out of the tax payers why should ayone on free travel have to pay anything from say, a £1 upwards for travel their taxes have already paid for? The bus/train company has already been payed for that service, so what is that extra cash for?

It's certainly not 'free' These systems work on the same principle as the NHS in that it is only 'free' at the point of use, but we all pay for it through our taxes and National Insurance.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I can picture the members of The Social Market Foundation as being extremely well-heeled individuals with a very strong personal financial basis and a pension to match, with a well-stocked wine cellar, to whom the understanding of these proposals affecting the less well-off will be something akin the a certain French queen and her statement of "Let them eat cake".

I can well imagine the likes of John Redwood being a member of this organisation.

 

[Ivo]

I take it that these bus, and other services have agreed to whatever Government/Council have offered as the fixed sum for accepting so-called 'free' travel. That surely means these companies are getting enough annual cash to run these services. They would not have accepted the deal in the first place if they were not.

The idea was that the companies should not gain or lose anything from the scheme (except greater patronage figures I suppose). If a route typically carried 30 eligible passengers for £2 a journey before the scheme started, but was projected to see an increase to 40 passengers as a result of the scheme, the Council would pay out £1.50 per journey - the equivalent of what the company was earning before the scheme was introduced. (This of course is based on 30 x 2 being equal to 40 x 1.5, i.e. 60.)


The exact method and figures differ from place to place. The former Avon area works on the fairly simple basis of finding the median Single fare on any given route, and then paying out 60% of said fare. So if a route had a minimum fare of £1 and a maximum fare of £5, the operator would receive £1.80 per Pass (halfway between 1 and 5 being 3; 1.8 being 60% of 3).

 

[SS4]

I can picture the members of The Social Market Foundation as being extremely well-heeled individuals with a very strong personal financial basis and a pension to match, with a well-stocked wine cellar, to whom the understanding of these proposals affecting the less well-off will be something akin the a certain French queen and her statement of "Let them eat cake".

I can well imagine the likes of John Redwood being a member of this organisation.

Sounds about right. Even the name implies it. The trouble I foresee is that a government of similar circumstances may use this as "independent" proof

 

[Bill EWS]

Thanks for that explanation IVO.

To Paul and SS4: Do you believe that we would ever see John Redwood or his ilk ever being seen, even dead, taking a bus! I don't think so. Denying these wealthy types is an easy target but whatever you think of them and believe me, I am with you all the way in this case, the fact remains that they all pay tax, therefore is it right that they are denied the same concessions as any other tax payer and, as already has been mentioned, just where do you place the cut-off mark?

Likewise with the 60 age! I would imagine that this is due to femails being able retire at 60 and you would habe a five year period where, when travelling together ne would be able to travel free while the nother woudl have to pay.

 

[dggar]

Take my bus pass away and it won't make the slightest difference, to me, because I find the thing is useless. But it will take the subsidy away from the bus companies.

In the GM area you have to actively apply for the pass. The age of the applicant is now linked with the State retirement age.

 

[starrymarkb]

I take it that these bus, and other services have agreed to whatever Government/Council have offered as the fixed sum for accepting so-called 'free' travel. That surely means these companies are getting enough annual cash to run these services. They would not have accepted the deal in the first place if they were not.

As this cash comes out of the tax payers why should ayone on free travel have to pay anything from say, a £1 upwards for travel their taxes have already paid for? The bus/train company has already been payed for that service, so what is that extra cash for?

It's certainly not 'free' These systems work on the same principle as the NHS in that it is only 'free' at the point of use, but we all pay for it through our taxes and National Insurance.

Also the bus companies don't have a say in what % of a fare they get reimbursed. Cornwall is seeing massive cuts to services in April because they are reducing the percentage they pay the bus companies.

 

[Deerfold]

The exact method and figures differ from place to place. The former Avon area works on the fairly simple basis of finding the median Single fare on any given route, and then paying out 60% of said fare. So if a route had a minimum fare of £1 and a maximum fare of £5, the operator would receive £1.80 per Pass (halfway between 1 and 5 being 3; 1.8 being 60% of 3).

Well that's not quite how you calculate the median - but it will work out at about that assuming fares are steadily spaced and equally popular.

If that were applied to my local routes with (mostly) a minimum fare of £1 and a maximum fare of £3 and ignoring return fares, I'd expect the median fare to be about £2.50.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I have been informed that holders of the NTCP scheme pass in the TfGM area, who wish to travel BEFORE 0930 on Monday to Friday now have to pay the FULL fare, rather than the 80p flat fare (for buses) that used to be charged in that time period on those days.

I am pleased to see that some forum members are aware of the qualifying ages for the NTCP will be eventually tied to the ruling retirement age for both men and women.