What open access service would be expected to return the highest revenue?

[starrymarkb]

I've always been ever so slightly perplexed on what open access means. Does it mean that it will never be taken over by various franchises? If so, why, as in what is the point/advantages of not franchising it?

Is it in direct control of the gov?

Open Access means an independent company applies for paths to run their own services. They are not part of the franchise system and do not receive an operating subsidy from the Government, the DfT cannot specify minimum service levels or otherwise meddle with the service) However they do have to apply to the Office of Rail Regulation (ie the DfT) for a licence to operate, licences will generally not be given if you replicate existing franchised services. They also need to apply for slots on the route they intend to operate.

Freight is the best example, if you can get a train and licence to operate then you can operate any service you like subject to there being paths available. You don't have a franchise to operate in a specific area, and your company can't be put out to tender every 5 years like the Franchised Passenger TOCs

 

[Zoe]

However they do have to apply to the Office of Rail Regulation (ie the DfT) for a licence to operate

The ORR is not part of the DfT.

 

[martinsh]

I quite liked that Liverpool to Bristol via the Marches idea tbtc came up with some time ago. It restores several long-lost links and connects two of the largest cities in England via some of Wales (which might encourage at least a small amount of WAG subsidy). It also means that there is an option for travel between the North-West and South-West regions that doesn't depend on either a change at Birmingham New Street or the hideous prices of Crosscountry...

I posted something along those lines too
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think a fast service between either the Lake District or Blackpool and Newquay or St Austell might work in summer..

My idea is close to castering for that as well. See below

AMENDED IDEA OF POST FROM ABOUT A YEAR AGO

Trans-Western Trains
Route :
(Plymouth)
Exeter
Taunton
(Weston-super-Mare)
Bristol
Severn Tunnel Junction
Cwmbran
Hereford
Ludlow
Shrewsbury
Crewe
--####-----divides--------#####
Warrington Runcorn
| Liverpool South Parkway
| Liverpool Lime Street
| ------terminates------------
|
| ------starts------------------
| Liverpool Lime Street
| St Helens
--------#------combines-----#--------
Wigan
Preston
Lancaster
(Oxenholme)
Carlisle
Motherwell
Glasgow

Frequency : every 2 hours

Stock :Three coach class 185s with better interior design (and no first class), and through corridor connections. 2 units coupled = 6 cars for all but the Crewe – Wigan section.

Markets Tapped

1. Liverpool to Welsh borders and South West
2. South West to Welsh borders, North West (beyond Manchester) and Scotland
3. Liverpool to Scotland
4. Welsh Borders to North West and Scotland

Sorry, haven't done any investigation into pathing

 

[merlodlliw]

Open Access means an independent company applies for paths to run their own services. They are not part of the franchise system and do not receive an operating subsidy from the Government, the DfT cannot specify minimum service levels or otherwise meddle with the service) However they do have to apply to the Office of Rail Regulation (ie the DfT) for a licence to operate, licences will generally not be given if you replicate existing franchised services. They also need to apply for slots on the route they intend to operate.

Freight is the best example, if you can get a train and licence to operate then you can operate any service you like subject to there being paths available. You don't have a franchise to operate in a specific area, and your company can't be put out to tender every 5 years like the Franchised Passenger TOCs

Sorry that is not my understanding.

ATW is a franchise, it applied for open access to the ORR and was granted
paths. ATW does get Welsh Govt subsidy to run its two open access services last year it received almost £3millions.
ATW to run its O/A services even took a two car 175 off its franchise to run what is known as Wag2, WG gave ATW £625K to run WAG2 from May to Dec last year, and this year it is using the franchise 175 & gets subsidy of £100k a month to run it O/A
The application to the ORR was for open access services by ATW, and these trains do replicate excising franchise services.

Bob

 

[IanXC]

Sorry that is not my understanding.

ATW is a franchise, it applied for open access to the ORR and was granted
paths. ATW does get Welsh Govt subsidy to run its two open access services last year it received almost £3millions.
ATW to run its O/A services even took a two car 175 off its franchise to run what is known as Wag2, WG gave ATW £625K to run WAG2 from May to Dec last year, and this year it is using the franchise 175 & gets subsidy of £100k a month to run it O/A
The application to the ORR was for open access services by ATW, and these trains do replicate excising franchise services.

Bob

I think there is maybe some creative use of the legislation by WAG/ATW, but the description provided is correct for Open Access Operators.

I wonder whether ATW operate a separate account for their OAO operation, funded by WAG, with WAG then effectively removing certain requirements from the franchise so that they can be undertaken 'on the OA account'.

 

[Zoe]

The Railways Act 1993 says that the designating body should from time to time determine the services should provided under a franchise agreement. Other services can run under Open Access.

 

[deltic]

I always thought Nottingham/Sheffield/Leeds/Carlisle/Glasgow if you could get some decent timings would be worth considering as an OA operation

 

[David Goddard]

I always thought Nottingham/Sheffield/Leeds/Carlisle/Glasgow if you could get some decent timings would be worth considering as an OA operation

Extend through to Peterborough, Ipswich and Harwich and we will have brought back "The European"!

 

[Squaddie]

ATW is a franchise, it applied for open access to the ORR and was granted paths. ATW does get Welsh Govt subsidy to run its two open access services last year it received almost £3millions. ATW to run its O/A services even took a two car 175 off its franchise to run what is known as Wag2, WG gave ATW £625K to run WAG2 from May to Dec last year, and this year it is using the franchise 175 & gets subsidy of £100k a month to run it O/A The application to the ORR was for open access services by ATW, and these trains do replicate excising franchise services.

You forgot to mention the six-hour layover at Cardiff.

 

[Ivo]

AMENDED IDEA OF POST FROM ABOUT A YEAR AGO

Trans-Western Trains

[route]

Frequency : every 2 hours

Stock :Three coach class 185s with better interior design (and no first class), and through corridor connections. 2 units coupled = 6 cars for all but the Crewe – Wigan section.

Markets Tapped

1. Liverpool to Welsh borders and South West
2. South West to Welsh borders, North West (beyond Manchester) and Scotland
3. Liverpool to Scotland
4. Welsh Borders to North West and Scotland

Sorry, haven't done any investigation into pathing

I like this idea, but no First Class? All the way from Plymouth to Glasgow?!

 

[merlodlliw]

I think there is maybe some creative use of the legislation by WAG/ATW, but the description provided is correct for Open Access Operators.

I wonder whether ATW operate a separate account for their OAO operation, funded by WAG, with WAG then effectively removing certain requirements from the franchise so that they can be undertaken 'on the OA account'.

Its all creative accounting,we will never know if ATW operate a separate account, but there is no question without taxpayers public money to bankroll them,ATW would never operate these two services as true O/A,

Bob

 

[ChiefPlanner]

All open access would be operators have to prove a "non abstractive market test" to the ORR in that they are genuinlly serving new markets / flows.

This is quite hard to say the least , as is covering the high costs of service provision. Many recent examples of ideas ,not getting anywhere - there was a Canterbury - Cannon St idea some years ago , as well as a Dover - Glasgow car sleeper service idea (routed via Settle !)

This is not knocking, just a view on how difficult things are - even on the Continent - Cologne to Hamburg "The Metropolitan" didnt last long for the reason of markets, pathing and costs.

 

[sprinterguy]

I always thought Nottingham/Sheffield/Leeds/Carlisle/Glasgow if you could get some decent timings would be worth considering as an OA operation

I think that would be an excellent service to have and would be near the top of any of my aspirations for open access operations. I would certainly make use of such a service wherever possible. A few extra trains up the S&C, perhaps calling at some focal stations along the route such as Skipton, Settle and Appleby, would definitely be welcome.

 

[Eagle]

And the reason Cross Country withdrew their Oxford to Kenny O service a couple of years ago...

...was because it wasn't specified in the new XC franchise. Also it freed up a couple of 220s for strengthening the most overcrowded services.

 

[swt_passenger]

I always thought Nottingham/Sheffield/Leeds/Carlisle/Glasgow if you could get some decent timings would be worth considering as an OA operation

It was considered. There is still a website page all about it:

http://www.renaissancetrains.com/glasgow-trains.html

...but it seemed to go the way of many others - the website page has never been updated. Note the positive story on their home page about WSMR...

Presumably Glasgow - Nottingham is yet another project abandoned when the figures didn't add up.

 

[Terrafire]

It was considered. There is still a website page all about it:

http://www.renaissancetrains.com/glasgow-trains.html

...but it seemed to go the way of many others - the website page has never been updated. Note the positive story on their home page about WSMR...

Presumably Glasgow - Nottingham is yet another project abandoned when the figures didn't add up.

That website makes an interesting point though - when we finally have a national Oyster-type card, Open Access operators (and indeed franchised ones) will truly be able to compete, as we'll have accurate figures as to which service passengers choose, rather than this ORCATS advanced guesswork. Well actually this would depend on something a little more advanced than the current Oyster system which doesn't detect individual trains but rather point-to-point flows for the most part, but it could be interesting.

 

[34D]

It was considered. There is still a website page all about it:

http://www.renaissancetrains.com/glasgow-trains.html

...but it seemed to go the way of many others - the website page has never been updated. Note the positive story on their home page about WSMR...

Presumably Glasgow - Nottingham is yet another project abandoned when the figures didn't add up.

Northern Spirit also tried Leeds-carlisle-glasgow in the 90s - wouldn't like to say whether it was a success or failure.

Wasn't another proposal from someone to do MML then peterborough cambridge bishops stortford to Stratford (London)?

 

[Eagle]

Northern Spirit also tried Leeds-carlisle-glasgow in the 90s - wouldn't like to say whether it was a success or failure.

It actually survived right up until the end of ATN in 2004 (it was technically a Scotrail service past Carlisle, just like the Newcastle–Carlisle–Glasgow services, some of which partially replaced it).

 

[GNERman]

I thought it was axed due to there being no paths available??? (It was through this service that the first ever Class 153 visited Glasgow Central BTW...)

 

[Muzer]

Slightly offtopic, but is there a list anywhere of these open access services? The one I found on Wikipedia seemed to be very incomplete to me.

 

[GNERman]

Current (ignoring T&WM):

First Hull Trains
Grand Central
Heathrow Express / Connect
Eurostar

Summer services, such as WCRC's Jacobite and Scarborough Spa are Open Access.

WSMR is a former operator.

Others, such as Alliance Rail, GoCo, are vying for paths on the network, and are not yet operating...

 

[Pumbaa]

Cannot see a non-London centric open access service working unless it was a massive ORCATS raid.

We have one of those already - and it still doesn't work Didn't work in 2004, didn't work in 2005 and still doesn't work now despite the desperate spin.

 

[marks87]

York - London Luton Airport Parkway.......sounds like a train operated by easytrain.com

Surely "easytrain" would consider York to be close enough to Luton Airport to not need such a service?

 

[Muzer]

Thanks for that

(GoCo is now known as GO-OP, btw, thanks to Go Compare's lawyers...)

 

[Terrafire]

Thanks for that

(GoCo is now known as GO-OP, btw, thanks to Go Compare's lawyers...)

How long til the Co-op come knocking, I wonder?

 

[Eagle]

How long til the Co-op come knocking, I wonder?

The Co-operative Group don't exactly have a trademark on the word "cooperative" now, do they?

First Hull Trains
Grand Central
Heathrow Express / Connect
Eurostar

And the WAG Express (2tpd each way), operated by ATW.

 

[Holly]

Current (ignoring T&WM): ...

How about the Royal Train?
Isn't that open operator also?

 

[IanXC]

How about the Royal Train?
Isn't that open operator also?

I don't think so, its not as if theres ticketing required! I would have thought it goes through the same process as getting a freight path, after all it runs "as required" and is operated by DB Schenker.

 

[34D]

I don't think so, its not as if theres ticketing required! I would have thought it goes through the same process as getting a freight path, after all it runs "as required" and is operated by DB Schenker.

Indeed. Her Madge is the best open access operator of them all, as she can get a path in and out of any London terminal in the peak! Eat your heart out Renaissance.

Not sure Eurostar should be on that list anymore, as it exclusively uses HS1 now. Maybe next year to be joined by DB (the german bit, not Arriva). Doubtless someone will remind me of the ownership details of the CTRL/HS1.

 

[route:oxford]

...was because it wasn't specified in the new XC franchise. Also it freed up a couple of 220s for strengthening the most overcrowded services.

So...

With the "tidying up" of Reading in course, would there be the capacity for an OA operator to run an hourly Oxford-Reading-Kensington Olympia(for London) -Somewhere in the South service?

And would it generally considered to be a form of ORCATS raid?