What open access service would be expected to return the highest revenue?

[northwichcat]

Open access applications have tended to mostly be for long distance London services because that's where the money is. However, excluding London services if you had money to invest in a new service, where would you expect to see return the greatest return in investment?

Liverpool to Hull via Eccles and Bradford is one of the few proposed non-London open access routes. Could that be a winner?

Or could you even run a Europe-Ashford-Tonbridge-Guildford-Reading and beyond service?

 

[91101]

Sadly, unless the UK enters into Schengan, I doubt that any kind of "Local" North France to Kent service is likely in the immediate future.

If I was going to invest money in open access, I'd look at seasonal niche markets and run them more closely aligned to a charter air operation.

Routes like the North East and Yorkshire to Brighton.

The South Coast to Scotland.

East Midlands to Blackpool.

 

[merlodlliw]

Welsh Govt pay for the running costs of two open access services known as the WAG Expresses, These run Holyhead to Cardiff & Return, WG pay ATW over £3million in Subsidy a year to run Ten Up & Down weekly services.

These trains never attract enough custom to pay for the running costs and ATW competes against itself.

As these are open access services , I thought it needed mention.

So add the subsidy to the fares ATW keep then do some creative accounting to gain the revenue


Bob

 

[Uzair]

I've always been ever so slightly perplexed on what open access means. Does it mean that it will never be taken over by various franchises? If so, why, as in what is the point/advantages of not franchising it?

Is it in direct control of the gov?

 

[Class172]

I would have thought that my Birmingham-Brighton idea would get some business — no changes are required between these two large places; intermediate destinations are better connected and a direct service is provided between the Midlands/M4 corridor and Gatwick Aiport.

See the 'Future services that would be viable' thread for the full stopping pattern.

 

[The Planner]

Cannot see a non-London centric open access service working unless it was a massive ORCATS raid.

 

[Wath Yard]

At a guess, no OA services that didn't serve London would have a hope of success. Chris Green once said London - Hull was probably the only route that should have been fully incorporated into InterCity but wasn't, and HT have shown that route is viable. GC are also doing a decent job with the Sunderland route, but Bradford appears to be still struggling. Unless an operator could do an ORCATS raid on a franchised operator's route no provincial city service would pay for itself.

 

[Class172]

Trouble is, no-one has tried a non-London service so we'll never know for sure.

 

[TSR :D]

Camp Hill line would return quite a lot profit if they were to be re-opened. There is a bus service that follows almost parallel to Camp Hill line and they're very popular so I could see the same for trains.

 

[Wath Yard]

Trouble is, no-one has tried a non-London service so we'll never know for sure.

There is probably a good reason why no-one has tried a non-London service, therefore we probably do know.

 

[merlodlliw]

Trouble is, no-one has tried a non-London service so we'll never know for sure.

Please see thread three, Open Access services do run outside of London, but will never cover their costs.


Bob

 

[Class172]

Oh yes, I had read the post about the WAG express but promptly forgot it.

 

[Jonny]

GoCo! are still planning Brum <> Westbury, but I think that's about it. IIRC there's another thread though...

 

[Ivo]

I quite liked that Liverpool to Bristol via the Marches idea tbtc came up with some time ago. It restores several long-lost links and connects two of the largest cities in England via some of Wales (which might encourage at least a small amount of WAG subsidy). It also means that there is an option for travel between the North-West and South-West regions that doesn't depend on either a change at Birmingham New Street or the hideous prices of Crosscountry...

I think an MML run would be good too, but that would be subject to ORCATS issues I expect. It certainly would be possible (avoiding both Derby and Nottingham would be a good start), but it wouldn't be easy. Having said that though, providing a link to Huddersfield might work.

Whether either gets picked up or not is another story though

 

[route:oxford]

Oxford or Swindon to Kensington Olympia

From memory, it would need a grade separated junction at (North Pole?) though.

 

[merlodlliw]

I quite liked that Liverpool to Bristol via the Marches idea tbtc came up with some time ago. It restores several long-lost links and connects two of the largest cities in England via some of Wales (which might encourage at least a small amount of WAG subsidy). It also means that there is an option for travel between the North-West and South-West regions that doesn't depend on either a change at Birmingham New Street or the hideous prices of Crosscountry...

A good idea, but I dont think WG would give any subsidy for any O/A run that starts & commences outside of Wales. Im sure TBTC had franchise in mind.


Bob

 

[IanXC]

I've always been ever so slightly perplexed on what open access means. Does it mean that it will never be taken over by various franchises? If so, why, as in what is the point/advantages of not franchising it?

Is it in direct control of the gov?

Open Access refers to the network operator (Network Rail) providing access to any applicant who can meet the various standards and requirements. Kind of like how Freight Operating Companies work, paths have to be secured and then trains can be operated.

I dont think there is any specific mechanism the government can use to bring OA services into a franchised operator. As I understand it the ORR and Network Rail have to give impartial review to an OA's bidding for paths, so whilst the OA has the paths its hard to see how a franchise could get them... Hmm

 

[charlee]

Plymouth to Portsmouth Harbour service

 

[34D]

Oxford or Swindon to Kensington Olympia

From memory, it would need a grade separated junction at (North Pole?) though.

And the reason Cross Country withdrew their Oxford to Kenny O service a couple of years ago..... That's right not much demand.

No track alteration needed, except would have to be diesel unless a small stretch from Acton Wells Jun towards Mitre Bridge could be wired (Hayes to reading etc being wired under crossrail/GW).

Re the thread, I'd like to see a service along the MML but going further north, to at least York - even if this had to terminate at luton airport parkway there would be enough orcats money from various flows.

 

[91101]

York - London Luton Airport Parkway.......sounds like a train operated by easytrain.com

 

[exile]

London Inter-airport services?

 

[WatcherZero]

Open Access refers to the network operator (Network Rail) providing access to any applicant who can meet the various standards and requirements. Kind of like how Freight Operating Companies work, paths have to be secured and then trains can be operated.

I dont think there is any specific mechanism the government can use to bring OA services into a franchised operator. As I understand it the ORR and Network Rail have to give impartial review to an OA's bidding for paths, so whilst the OA has the paths its hard to see how a franchise could get them... Hmm

Essentially ORR can rule that a franchise has a more pressing need for them than an OAO, thats the way they could be recouped. The franchises themselves of course are open to compete by putting on their own fully or partially identical route by reorganising services using existing paths (changing origin or destination) or simply requesting more paths from ORR to do their own non-franchise specified service.

 

[IanXC]

Essentially ORR can rule that a franchise has a more pressing need for them than an OAO, thats the way they could be recouped. The franchises themselves of course are open to compete by putting on their own fully or partially identical route by reorganising services using existing paths (changing origin or destination) or simply requesting more paths from ORR to do their own non-franchise specified service.

From memory Hull Trains paths are secured until 2014, so presumably in the run up to that the ICEC franchise holder (or DfT on behalf of) could bid for those paths and ORR would have to choose between the franchise and the OAO?

 

[merlodlliw]

I dont think there is any specific mechanism the government can use to bring OA services into a franchised operator. As I understand it the ORR and Network Rail have to give impartial review to an OA's bidding for paths, so whilst the OA has the paths its hard to see how a franchise could get them... Hmm[/QUOTE]

It happened in Wales, between The Welsh Govt and the ATW franchise,which it also controls.

 

[David Goddard]

I would have thought that my Birmingham-Brighton idea would get some business — no changes are required between these two large places; intermediate destinations are better connected and a direct service is provided between the Midlands/M4 corridor and Gatwick Aiport.

See the 'Future services that would be viable' thread for the full stopping pattern.

Further to this, some services could reverse at Redhill and operate to Ashford International. With additional, ah-hem, reinstatement of stops made by Eurostar at Ashford this would be in some cases a more attractive changing point than going into London. Yes HS2 will come eventually, but will not pull into St Pancras International alongside the Eurostars.

Potential origins could include The West Country, South Wales, Birmingham and Manchester.

 

[route:oxford]

And the reason Cross Country withdrew their Oxford to Kenny O service a couple of years ago..... That's right not much demand.

Well, one train a day in each direction (off peak) is hardly going to create a demand.

There was also the confusion over boarding/disembarking at a "Not London" station in London with a London Terminals Ticket. At various times (when it was still operating) I was told my ticket wasn't valid on the service or that I shouldn't really use the ticket on the service, but that it was ok this time, or it was ignored completely.

No track alteration needed, except would have to be diesel unless a small stretch from Acton Wells Jun towards Mitre Bridge could be wired (Hayes to reading etc being wired under crossrail/GW).

So, just to check, a service can travel between the GWML (fast or slows) and the Kensington Olympia Route without causing any issues with pathing on the GWML?

 

[Yew]

Maybe something to Lincolnand cleethorpes ? Then again it would probably run london - Doncaster - cleethorpes to get more ORCATS

 

[charlee]

London Inter-airport services?

Oh you could be on to a winner here.

 

[northwichcat]

Sadly, unless the UK enters into Schengan, I doubt that any kind of "Local" North France to Kent service is likely in the immediate future.

When I said Europe-Ashford-Tonbridge-Guildford-Reading I was really referring to a route between the FGW and XC networks and Europe avoiding the need for a cross-London transfer, opposed to necessarily calling at the stations listed. Also Europe could read as Switzerland or Italy opposed to terminating in France.

If I was going to invest money in open access, I'd look at seasonal niche markets and run them more closely aligned to a charter air operation.

Routes like the North East and Yorkshire to Brighton.

The South Coast to Scotland.

East Midlands to Blackpool.

On a similar point I think a fast service between either the Lake District or Blackpool and Newquay or St Austell might work in summer. Currently the XC service is slow, overcrowded, doesn't directly serve Lancashire/Cumbria while Newquay is one return working on a Saturday meaning unless you go on a Saturday and come back the following Saturday it's not that useful.

 

[34D]

Well, one train a day in each direction (off peak) is hardly going to create a demand.

There was also the confusion over boarding/disembarking at a "Not London" station in London with a London Terminals Ticket. At various times (when it was still operating) I was told my ticket wasn't valid on the service or that I shouldn't really use the ticket on the service, but that it was ok this time, or it was ignored completely.



So, just to check, a service can travel between the GWML (fast or slows) and the Kensington Olympia Route without causing any issues with pathing on the GWML?

I won't try to comment on the (historic) ticketing issues as its in the past now.

Assume a service from Swindon to wherever, which would be on the up main. It would need to cross to the up relief by (latest) the crossovers just east of Ealing Broadway. Just after Acton main line station (poplar junction) it would head the exact same way the XC voyagers used to: acton wells jun, grand jun, willesden west london jun, mitre bridge jun, then Shepherds Bush to Kensington Olympia.

Such a service shouldn't cause any more issues than any other GWML passenger or freight service.