Future of Thameslink's Wimbledon/Sutton loop?

[Tommy3000]

Hi folks, long time lurker, first time poster.

The Thameslink Programme work on the core route between Blackfriars and St Pancras is almost finished - FCC has announced the regular weekend and late night closures of the route will finally end on 19 May.

Once London Bridge has been rebuilt, there will be new and longer trains and more tph for all Thameslink passengers except for the poor sods on the Wimbledon/Sutton loop, who will see no service improvements and actually lose cross-London trains. Trains from the loop will be terminating in Blackfriars' new bays from 2018 because there won't be enough room for them on the core route once the new timetable kicks in.

As it stands, there are only 4tph on the loop even though there is often a crush on rush hour trains. Whenever there is a shortage of staff or some other disruption, FCC will cancel loop trains to keep the Bedford/Brighton line going. I also understand (but this may not be reliable info) that the last train of the night to serve the entire loop (Elephant & Castle downwards) will still be the 22:16 from Blackfriars even after the late night closures finish. FCC seems to have no interest in the route at all.

Is there more that could/should be done with the loop? The junction north of Herne Hill does constrain the service frequency, but there will be spare capacity (at least 4tph) after London Bridge is rebuilt and no Bedford/Brighton trains have to be routinely routed via Herne Hill. It also seems like a bit of a waste of Blackfriars' bay platforms to have only one train leave every 15 minutes when the station's other platforms will be served every few minutes (and southbound trains will be constantly off-loading more passengers for the loop).

It seems to me that the loop is a good candidate for absorption into the London Overground. The furthest station from central London is only in Zone 5 and 35 minutes is the maximum journey time on the service, with most stations being within 20 minutes of Blackfriars and the majority of passengers already standing during rush hour. Maintaining the timetable also wouldn't be that difficult - there will be a clear run between Herne Hill junction and Blackfriars after 2018 with no conflicting train movements.

This line and the East London Line Extension actually cross each other at Loughborough Junction, although I can't think of any practical way to provide a direct interchange (the ELLX will pass LJ on the southernmost tracks, which are the furthest from the existing station and on a high-level bridge). Despite this, I still think a metro service with connections to Thameslink, Southeastern, the Circle, District, Northern and Bakerloo lines and the Croydon Tramlink would be well worthwhile. The demand for a more regular service is definitely there (during the rush hour, at least) and no major infrastructure changes would be required, except perhaps for the signals (which are 1km apart as I understand it).

FCC's FAQ on the Thameslink programme says the post-2018 Thameslink franchise has yet to be agreed, so this could be a good opportunity to make something out of the loop instead of leaving it as an apparently unwanted appendage.

What does everyone think?

 

[Clip]

London Overground. That should solve the problems.

 

[HSTEd]

The loop looks like its going to be in a similar boat to the Hertford Loop after the Thameslink programme is completed, an isolated service that is simply tacked onto the side of a franchise because its not considered to fit anywhere else. (This is far more the case in the Moorgate scenario however.)

Both are fairly good candidates for transfer to London Overground but I doubt that would occur.

 

[Class377/5]

The Loop is getting the same new trains as the current fleet of trains. That's on going but a lot of what has to be decided is at the DfT door. Whatever happens now the Loop will stay with Thameslink with the next franchise so there is room for change.That's why FCC's Thameslink Programme website says nothing, becaused the decisions will be made in the next franchise, post FCC.

As for your idea that the bays can take more than 8tph, you do realise that turning a train around isn't as easy as running a train through. Without stepping back, 15mins is about the minimum you can turn a train around. Given the time to walk the train then set up the fleet and then allow boarding of passengers does take around that time. Especially if you've got busy bays like Blackfriars will have, especially in peak with Southeastern services.

Stepping back can be done especially as Blackfriars is a train crew depot, with this your still looking at only 6tph per bay, (10mins to approach a platform, stop, get everyone out and the train get set up for a new journey, passengers get informed and board). As for clear run, it's only clear run north of Herne Hill and between Haydons Road and Sutton. It has to pass through a lot of busy junctions when it does mix, it's not like the current set up with routes pretty much separate from the rest of the railway (apart from Euston). The so far public plan has been to link the Loop with London Bridge, (tho there has been the suggestion of a Loop - Victoria services). Also if you do turn arounds to the minimum possible then one slightest problem and you'd affect services for the entire day. No recovery means no recovery from problems. No matter what is done, problems will always arise and cause delays to the services that are outside the TOC control. Simply plying more trains through will only make this worse. Note as well that an Overground only Loop would then have to build a new train crew depot to ensure drivers at more than one place. As if one incident closes one part of the line then you lose the ability to run a service. For example a passenger ill on a Loop service towards Sutton (where you can only use one platform) and you'd have to suspend the entire line as drivers would be trapped north of the problem.

Just turning it into London Overground won't magically change the service. Keeping the franchise with Thameslink will mean they will be able to use more train crew depots however, especially if the Loop is extended to serve London Bridge. Just having the as LO would actually be simlar to the current set up with all drivers based at Blackfriars.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....What does everyone think?

I think simplifying everything to be an issue north of Herne Hill is avoiding other issues, like conflicting moves across junctions, other TOCs services, two aspect signalling between Sutton and Wimbledon (and v.v.) and single platform use at Wimbledon.

Unless the line is in someway upgraded, 4tph is the best you'll get imo. I personally feel that the X'Trapolis was the right train for that line, but maybe not for the rest of FCC.

 

[Minstral25]

I'd suspect the DafT's perspective is that both the Hertford Loop and the Wimbledon Loop should stay with Thameslink through the changeover to the new services and then split it off later.

It seems logical that the bays be solely used for Wimbledon Loop and perhaps other South London Metro services. All ex-SouthEastern trains going up through the core as they are on that side of the tracks already. If I was DfT I would recast the entire South London Metro routes after Thameslink is bedded in probably giving lots of it to TfL.

Almost all the slow line services out of Victoria and London Bridge, plus the Wimbledon Loop from Blackfriars are self contained within London (Horsham via Dorking, Tattenham and Caterham services are the exception but the latter could be integrated into the fast line services post Thameslink).

Back to Thameslink and the issue of Herne Hill, this is a major bottleneck which needs sorting by a grade separated flyover to the North of the Station, so the SE lines could go over the current Thameslink lines. Perhaps this should be a DfT condition for handing over the South London Metro to TfL. Looking at Google Maps and having been through the station recently it looks like there is probably space. It would also allow platform extension north as there would no longer be any crossovers north of the station.

 

[Class377/5]

I'd suspect the DafT's perspective is that both the Hertford Loop and the Wimbledon Loop should stay with Thameslink through the changeover to the new services and then split it off later.

It seems logical that the bays be solely used for Wimbledon Loop and perhaps other South London Metro services. All ex-SouthEastern trains going up through the core as they are on that side of the tracks already. If I was DfT I would recast the entire South London Metro routes after Thameslink is bedded in probably giving lots of it to TfL.

Almost all the slow line services out of Victoria and London Bridge, plus the Wimbledon Loop from Blackfriars are self contained within London (Horsham via Dorking, Tattenham and Caterham services are the exception but the latter could be integrated into the fast line services post Thameslink).

Back to Thameslink and the issue of Herne Hill, this is a major bottleneck which needs sorting by a grade separated flyover to the North of the Station, so the SE lines could go over the current Thameslink lines. Perhaps this should be a DfT condition for handing over the South London Metro to TfL. Looking at Google Maps and having been through the station recently it looks like there is probably space. It would also allow platform extension north as there would no longer be any crossovers north of the station.

Rebuilding of Herne Hill is going to be needed sooner rather than later. You could do a dual layer station allowing for 12 car station on both lines meaning additional services could call there. (Hell you could have Loop services going underneath with a wide platform and four trackes to/from Victoria allowing fast trains to loop stoppers.) All would be 12 car platforms allowing Herne Hill to become a major interchange. Not cheap but would allow more trains to run through this pinch point and it comes a point where you can't tinker anymore and need proper upgrade works.

Post TLP, I could see major change to the franchise map on the current Southern and Southeastern services majorly changed. TfL has already signalled a want for the Southeastern and Anglia Metro routes. Thameslink Core however should never be given to TfL as it's too far reaching a network.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

How about converting it to LUL District line operation as an extension ex-Wimbledon? It wouldn't be easy but it would certainly improve services, even if it meant longer journey times. I wouldn't mind seeing it passed on to London Overground either. I would have thought LUL or LOROL operation would be better than it being tagged on to a franchise as almost an afterthought.

 

[cjohnson]

I also understand (but this may not be reliable info) that the last train of the night to serve the entire loop (Elephant & Castle downwards) will still be the 22:16 from Blackfriars even after the late night closures finish.

Looking ahead at the timetables, from 26 May the last 'loop' train will be the 2246 from Luton (leaves Blackfriars at 2346).

 

[DavidBusDriver]

Also guys/girls, don't forget that from 2013 onwards the franchises start altering in preparation for the Thameslink/Southern mega-franchise, and from that point onwards there may well be scope for changes in services.

The two-aspect signalling is a real constraint on the section between Wimbledon and Sutton, there are only two signal sections in each direction with the obvious effect on capacity. The other important factor to remember is the decision to go with 24-tph in the peak once the TLP is complete, and since this will be actualized with ATO, this might be a reason why they want to limit conflicting moves. (Got no idea how they plan to REALLY reduce station dwell times to reach that tph though - will be a serious effort to get simple things like passengers using all doors, passengers allowing people off before barging on, and various other things that speed up the process - but that is a matter for another discussion entirely!)

 

[Class377/5]

Also guys/girls, don't forget that from 2013 onwards the franchises start altering in preparation for the Thameslink/Southern mega-franchise, and from that point onwards there may well be scope for changes in services.

The two-aspect signalling is a real constraint on the section between Wimbledon and Sutton, there are only two signal sections in each direction with the obvious effect on capacity. The other important factor to remember is the decision to go with 24-tph in the peak once the TLP is complete, and since this will be actualized with ATO, this might be a reason why they want to limit conflicting moves. (Got no idea how they plan to REALLY reduce station dwell times to reach that tph though - will be a serious effort to get simple things like passengers using all doors, passengers allowing people off before barging on, and various other things that speed up the process - but that is a matter for another discussion entirely!)

You don't need to reduce dwell times compared to today's times. The planned dwell times aren't that much less than today's. (I say that as I used to time boarding times in the peak while I was platform staff). The fact that trains can be closer together is the main driver for increased through put in the Core.

Also the point that so many decisions have yet to be made (or made public) that anything we put won't be proven for a year or two yet.

 

[OxtedL]

It seems logical that the bays be solely used for Wimbledon Loop and perhaps other South London Metro services. All ex-SouthEastern trains going up through the core as they are on that side of the tracks already. If I was DfT I would recast the entire South London Metro routes after Thameslink is bedded in probably giving lots of it to TfL.

I think SouthEastern services coming up from Herne Hill are on the wrong side at Blackfriars as well, using the same route as FCC services? This surely complicates things.

I agree that a Herne Hill flyover must be inevitable unless you completely re-route Loop services away from Herne Hill altogether. It will be a real pain in construction however, as it will severely disrupt at least two incredibly busy commuter routes. As if the Thameslink Programme wasn't bad enough.

 

[jon0844]

I am not convinced that things will go so smoothly at stations like St Pancras with a really high frequency because trains go to different places (mostly southbound for now but when the link to the GN starts...).

Unlike a tube service where you can just take the next train (in most cases), St Pancras will have people waiting for different trains. Now if enough trains are 12 car and they turn up every few minutes, maybe there will never be a chance for crowds to build up. But after any disruption, I am sure it will go pear shaped quite quickly.

 

[cjohnson]

I think SouthEastern services coming up from Herne Hill are on the wrong side at Blackfriars as well, using the same route as FCC services? This surely complicates things.

The SE services come via Denmark Hill, not Herne Hill and into different platforms at Elephant.

 

[OxtedL]

There are at least 3 [edit: 4] morning peak services that currently go Northbound from Herne Hill and through the core.

I think these only went as far as Blackfriars/City T before the Thameslink Programme? There may have been more more of them back then as well, but now I'm at the limit of my memory as I was only ever up that way a couple of times.

 

[tbtc]

In short, I don't know what will happen in a few years time/ what the new franchise boundaries will be (if most of the current First Capital Connect franchise merges with most of the current Southern franchise then obviously the Wimbledon Loop would be part of that).

However, I would ask whether the loop needs to be retained? There are other services from central London to both Sutton and Wimbledon. The Sutton - Wimbledon section of line could be run by East London Line trains extended from West Croydon (providing a Croydon - Wimbledon service to take pressure off the trams) or by conversion to Tramlink)? Since people tend to want direct journeys, rather than going round in a loop, is the "loop" really there more for operational convenience than to suit actual demand?

 

[Class377/5]

I think SouthEastern services coming up from Herne Hill are on the wrong side at Blackfriars as well, using the same route as FCC services? This surely complicates things.

I agree that a Herne Hill flyover must be inevitable unless you completely re-route Loop services away from Herne Hill altogether. It will be a real pain in construction however, as it will severely disrupt at least two incredibly busy commuter routes. As if the Thameslink Programme wasn't bad enough.

Currently most of the Herne Hill routed trains tend to use the western pair of tracks and the Denmark Hill use the eastern. But as you have the ability to change north of Loughborough Junction you can find services on any of the pairs of tracks. However the plan is for 6tph (from Denmark Hill) to mix at Blackfriars on a flat crossing rather than 4tph from the Loop crossing the 6tph from Denmark Hill then the 18tph from London Bridge. So the Loop could go through the Core but only if they mix with another 28tph which means any problems could blow the entire peak. Simpler the better.

I am not convinced that things will go so smoothly at stations like St Pancras with a really high frequency because trains go to different places (mostly southbound for now but when the link to the GN starts...).

Unlike a tube service where you can just take the next train (in most cases), St Pancras will have people waiting for different trains. Now if enough trains are 12 car and they turn up every few minutes, maybe there will never be a chance for crowds to build up. But after any disruption, I am sure it will go pear shaped quite quickly.

Very true. However with multiple routes having atleast some shared common track, ie Brighton and Caterham's can take each others passengers atleast as far as East Croydon. However with a lot of services being only every 30mins from the proposed service plan, those people will travel part of the way. Going north, the fact that there is more frequent services to stations should help.

However looking at 24tph terminating south on the Core or even City addd in with the 8tph into the bays and the system can't cope.

The SE services come via Denmark Hill, not Herne Hill and into different platforms at Elephant.

Not always. They currently use all 4 platforms for services if needed. Last minute platform changes are not uncommon at the Elephant.

There are at least 3 [edit: 4] morning peak services that currently go Northbound from Herne Hill and through the core.

I think these only went as far as Blackfriars/City T before the Thameslink Programme? There may have been more more of them back then as well, but now I'm at the limit of my memory as I was only ever up that way a couple of times.

The Sevenoaks terminated at Blackfriars. Sutton went through. Thre has been more additional trains added tho.

 

[OxtedL]

However, I would ask whether the loop needs to be retained? There are other services from central London to both Sutton and Wimbledon. The Sutton - Wimbledon section of line could be run by East London Line trains extended from West Croydon (providing a Croydon - Wimbledon service to take pressure off the trams) or by conversion to Tramlink)? Since people tend to want direct journeys, rather than going round in a loop, is the "loop" really there more for operational convenience than to suit actual demand?

I believe the original ELL plan decided against extending to Sutton or anywhere past due to the overcrowding this might have caused. (Don't quote me on that.) The 378s are in any case likely to be too short to handle loop traffic without serious frequency increases.

Having a loop effectively increases the frequency of the service provided. Trains heading up from Streatham to Wimbledon don't have anywhere sensible to go other than Sutton anyway at the present time.

 

[Tommy3000]

London Overground. That should solve the problems.

Heh, I know changing the colour of the trains won't solve problems. My point was that FCC's priority (in terms of allocating staff and trains, especially during disruptions) will always be the core route. Commuters on the loop could do without a second-rate service.

Class377/5 - thanks, very informative. It seems there would be real logistical problems with increasing the frequency of the service or taking it out of FCC's control. Do you know how solid the plan is to include London Bridge in the loop?

Back to Thameslink and the issue of Herne Hill, this is a major bottleneck which needs sorting by a grade separated flyover to the North of the Station, so the SE lines could go over the current Thameslink lines.

Wouldn't a simpler solution be a single track flyover to carry the northbound Thameslink route (the westernmost track) over the middle SE tracks? I do like Class377/5's suggestion though - a total separation of the lines would allow for longer platforms and remove both junctions.

I think these only went as far as Blackfriars/City T before the Thameslink Programme? There may have been more more of them back then as well, but now I'm at the limit of my memory as I was only ever up that way a couple of times.

Those were definitely SE services via Denmark Hill. I used to commute out of Blackfriars and the bay platforms were always used by SE.

 

[Eagle]

The loop looks like its going to be in a similar boat to the Hertford Loop after the Thameslink programme is completed, an isolated service that is simply tacked onto the side of a franchise because its not considered to fit anywhere else.

Not really true; it'll be part of the combined Southern/TLGN franchise, which it will integrate very well with (it's entirely within the Southern zone).

 

[swt_passenger]

Is there more that could/should be done with the loop? The junction north of Herne Hill does constrain the service frequency, but there will be spare capacity (at least 4tph) after London Bridge is rebuilt and no Bedford/Brighton trains have to be routinely routed via Herne Hill. It also seems like a bit of a waste of Blackfriars' bay platforms to have only one train leave every 15 minutes when the station's other platforms will be served every few minutes (and southbound trains will be constantly off-loading more passengers for the loop).

I'd suggest reading NR's South London RUS. Although coming up to 4 years old, the later chapters have a few proposals for how to use the Blackfriars bays more effectively, including running the loop service at 4tph round to London Bridge as another poster has mentioned. (They have 2015 as Thameslink final completion, of course that needs to be read as 2018 now.)

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...nts\Route Utilisation Strategies\South London

As things stood then, the general idea would be that 4 tph would be the Thameslink loop service, and the other 4 tph would come from the Southeastern division:

4 tph Wimbledon Loop
2tph from Kent House
2tph semi-fast service from the Medway area and/or Maidstone line.

 

[DownSouth]

However, I would ask whether the loop needs to be retained? There are other services from central London to both Sutton and Wimbledon. The Sutton - Wimbledon section of line could be run by East London Line trains extended from West Croydon (providing a Croydon - Wimbledon service to take pressure off the trams) or by conversion to Tramlink)? Since people tend to want direct journeys, rather than going round in a loop, is the "loop" really there more for operational convenience than to suit actual demand?

Do trains run in both directions on the loop route (clockwise and anti-clockwise) or only in one direction? If it is both, then I can see it being good for those trains being useful for passengers making a cross-suburban journey from one part of the loop to another and return.

Surely changing at Blackfriars can't be that big a hassle with the high frequency of services that do go through the core. It would be far better than having the frequency reduced and maybe some stations losing London trains by splitting the loop into two radial lines.

Maybe the real problem is in trying to educate the British that good connections are better than poor "direct" services?

 

[cjohnson]

Do trains run in both directions on the loop route (clockwise and anti-clockwise) or only in one direction? If it is both, then I can see it being good for those trains being useful for passengers making a cross-suburban journey from one part of the loop to another and return.

Currently 2tph clockwise, 2tph anti-clockwise, joining at Streatham to give 4tph between there and the core.

Surely changing at Blackfriars can't be that big a hassle with the high frequency of services that do go through the core. It would be far better than having the frequency reduced and maybe some stations losing London trains by splitting the loop into two radial lines.

Maybe the real problem is in trying to educate the British that good connections are better than poor "direct" services?

Absolutely - a lot of the local 'campaigns' to save the through service appear to forget this.

 

[swt_passenger]

Absolutely - a lot of the local 'campaigns' to save the through service appear to forget this.

It would be interesting to know the usual final destinations of peak period commuters. Can we automatically assume all those who get off at City T/L realise how close it is to the north end of Blackfriars?

Clearly a different case for travellers to Farringdon - but further? We're regularly told that only trivial numbers actually go all the way through the Thameslink core, so they should exercise caution about the claims of objectors...

 

[ben2011]

What would the feasibility of splitting the loop be? For example, 2tph could leave Blackfriars and then run Blackfriars - Sutton - Wimbledon, termitnating there, while 2tph could run Blackfriars - Streatham - Haydons Road - Wimbledon, and then replace a slow SWT service south of Wimbledon, such as Hampton Court or Chessington.

The benefits could be a more reliable service and less pressure on the platform at Wimbledon. However, it would mean some stations losing a direct Sutton service and there could be problems getting the trains from platform 5 at Wimbledon to the line to Blackfriars.

 

[Class377/5]

It would be interesting to know the usual final destinations of peak period commuters. Can we automatically assume all those who get off at City T/L realise how close it is to the north end of Blackfriars?

Clearly a different case for travellers to Farringdon - but further? We're regularly told that only trivial numbers actually go all the way through the Thameslink core, so they should exercise caution about the claims of objectors...

No, they used to stand at Blackfriars when a train terminated for whatever reason to get a train to City. Despite it being quicker to walk. The I love City TLP campaign did help in this respect.

The main pull of people going through is the City. By Farringdon trains are pretty empty in the peak compared to before. That said there still is a lot of people going to Farringdon and northwards.

What would the feasibility of splitting the loop be? For example, 2tph could leave Blackfriars and then run Blackfriars - Sutton - Wimbledon, termitnating there, while 2tph could run Blackfriars - Streatham - Haydons Road - Wimbledon, and then replace a slow SWT service south of Wimbledon, such as Hampton Court or Chessington.

The benefits could be a more reliable service and less pressure on the platform at Wimbledon. However, it would mean some stations losing a direct Sutton service and there could be problems getting the trains from platform 5 at Wimbledon to the line to Blackfriars.

The problems Herne Hill to Streatham. Your idea would only make things worse.

Heh, I know changing the colour of the trains won't solve problems. My point was that FCC's priority (in terms of allocating staff and trains, especially during disruptions) will always be the core route. Commuters on the loop could do without a second-rate service.

Class377/5 - thanks, very informative. It seems there would be real logistical problems with increasing the frequency of the service or taking it out of FCC's control. Do you know how solid the plan is to include London Bridge in the loop?

Wouldn't a simpler solution be a single track flyover to carry the northbound Thameslink route (the westernmost track) over the middle SE tracks? I do like Class377/5's suggestion though - a total separation of the lines would allow for longer platforms and remove both junctions.

Those were definitely SE services via Denmark Hill. I used to commute out of Blackfriars and the bay platforms were always used by SE.

To be honest, the plans for post 2016 when Thameslink goes back through London Bridge are very fluid. I know there are plans in place but it depends on many factors.

The Loops biggest problem is its well served by other transport compared to some parts of the Brighton Line (Balcombe if I remember correct is a Southern service but FCC supply the almost all the service). Also because of th nature of the line, resouces south of London are extremely limited. The Loop does suffer as a result. As does the all stations service north of London.

Personally I see a need to more more towards a 12 car railway, especially in the Southern Metro area. 10 car railway around the loop using fix formation should help. But both Tulse Hill and Herene Hill need to be sorted first. Tulse Hill would likely be simplified at the north end and platforms extended. Herne Hill is the expensive one.

 

[OxtedL]

Tulse Hill has bridges at both ends, looking at Google Maps. That should be fun if and when they decide to do something about it.

 

[swt_passenger]

... and there could be problems getting the trains from platform 5 at Wimbledon to the line to Blackfriars.

It is practically impossible to run through from the SWML given the current infrastructure limitations, a flat crossing of the SWML fast lines would be impossible. I'd forget about that idea completely...

 

[Class377/5]

Tulse Hill has bridges at both ends, looking at Google Maps. That should be fun if and when they decide to do something about it.

You can tell how often I've been there. Not cheap as I thought then. But no where as expensive as Herne Hill.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

...The benefits could be a more reliable service and less pressure on the platform at Wimbledon....

Quite the opposite infact.

FCC only use platform 9 at Wimbledon, platform 10 is half Croydon Tram, half terminus for 'via Haydons Road' services (and is only 4 car). For trains from Sutton to terminate there, you'd be stopping trains from Haydons Road calling there (or even going through!) unless they can find a path across the mainline for every train to use another platform, and that's without considering that I don't think there is a link for the ex-Haydons Road trains to get on to the mainline.