The Leigh Guided Busway construction project

[WatcherZero]

Theyve actually been struggling with the moral repercussions of that. Its one thing to subsidise rail travel to take cars off the road, but their worrying they may be attracting people travelling long distances from outside GM just to park in GM and take advantage of the free parking and subsidised fares that we as local tax payers subsidise, instead of using a station nearer to their homes and their own councils subsidising fares and parking costs.

 

[HSTEd]

A Heavy rail extension to leigh is almost certain to never happen, especially as it would be stuck on the outskirts where the right of way dissapears under warehouses.
If it was built however it is almost certain that it would not be electrified and what you woudl get would be Pacers, which are hardly likely to attract teh sort of passengers who dont like Trams or busses.

 

[Nym]

If we're having heavy rail to Leigh, and this should be the only use for this route, it should be allong this http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF&msa=0&msid=208537899835423960920.0004a52fabee9f1011216 route...

 

[HSTEd]

Oops, satellite photography can be confusing, but I still think its a bit far from the current centre of public transport in Leigh (the bus station), whereas a Tram could terminate right there in the bays with the busses.

Ofcourse, isnt there talk of Tram Training the Line to Walkden as it is?

 

[Nym]

Yes, there is, and please god no!

Unlike the Mid Cheshire line it would bring sod all benefit to the line!

And I did look into moving the line further into Leigh before and it could go in the southern half of the Spinning Gate Shopping Centre car park without too much hassle, old bit of viaduct, some new viaduct, loose some parking spaces and that new warehouse on S Queen St and you'd be in, just be a bit of a tight curve to get there is all. Then you could go mad and move the bus station to the other side, and put the car park on the site of the old bus station...

EDIT: Above map updated.

 

[yorksrob]

Theyve actually been struggling with the moral repercussions of that. Its one thing to subsidise rail travel to take cars off the road, but their worrying they may be attracting people travelling long distances from outside GM just to park in GM and take advantage of the free parking and subsidised fares that we as local tax payers subsidise, instead of using a station nearer to their homes and their own councils subsidising fares and parking costs.

I think that’s a problem that any PTE will have with any of its services. Is it really worth disadvantaging a town like Leigh by keeping it off the network just because of this ? Also, if that is the case, are GMPTE deliberately choosing a sub-standard form of transport in the expectation that it will put off motorists from outside of Leigh, in which case, since its likely to put off motorists within Leigh as well, is it really worth paying for it in the first place ?

A Heavy rail extension to leigh is almost certain to never happen, especially as it would be stuck on the outskirts where the right of way dissapears under warehouses.
If it was built however it is almost certain that it would not be electrified and what you woudl get would be Pacers, which are hardly likely to attract teh sort of passengers who dont like Trams or busses.

I’m afraid I disagree entirely. Even if they can’t find a way of relocating the warehouse units and their tenants (which must surely be cheaper and easier than moving domestic housing for example), if you look at the line of the trackbed, it would only be the parking area which would need to be occupied, and many end of branch stations have been relocated to tighter areas than that.

If we're having heavy rail to Leigh, and this should be the only use for this route, it should be allong this http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF&msa=0&msid=208537899835423960920.0004a52fabee9f1011216 route...

Agree entirely. It would be extremely easy to get the station near to Bradshaw Street (the main shopping drag).

Yes, there is, and please god no!

Unlike the Mid Cheshire line it would bring sod all benefit to the line!

And I did look into moving the line further into Leigh before and it could go in the southern half of the Spinning Gate Shopping Centre car park without too much hassle, old bit of viaduct, some new viaduct, loose some parking spaces and that new warehouse on S Queen St and you'd be in, just be a bit of a tight curve to get there is all. Then you could go mad and move the bus station to the other side, and put the car park on the site of the old bus station...

EDIT: Above map updated.

Also agree. The Walkden line is fully integrated with the National network with trains connecting at Salford Crescent and Victoria and continuing beyond Wigan at the other end. There would be little benefit in turning this long, fairly rural/inter-urban route into a slower, separated tram service, other than to aid GMPTE’s empire building and self-aggrandisement.

 

[WatcherZero]

No not an issue for Leigh which is close to the inner ring and a large Motorway park and ride site is planned for the busway, the problem is being seen at the stations in Wigan just inside the PTE borders and its also the main reason they wont expand the car park at Horwich. For example people driving from Southport and Ormskirk to the first station in Wigan instead of catching a train to Manchester from their local stations. I believe Bolton sees an issue with people driving from Preston before catching the train.

 

[Nym]

Really, is TfGM that blind to the 'bigger picture' here, the're choking capacity into Manchester and that is putting businesses off doing business in Manchester because of reduced accessibility, Christ, a four year old can see that's happening! Businesses are moving out of Manchester and into places easier to access by car, such as Middlebrook (Horiwch).

Personally I see it as something of importance to most of the North West that we do something about the M61/M60/M62 since it chokes all capacity in the area.

One major thing would be easy, bigger car park and longer services to Horwich Parkway.

A lot of traffic heads to Trafford Park from Bolton, so provide something on that route too, it's not rocket science when you take the politics out of it..

 

[WatcherZero]

Ok youve got me, how will bigger car parks at the motorway parkways reduce the number of cars using motorways to access said parkways?

 

[Nym]

Because the problems on the M61 don't usually start until AFTER Junction 6...? Usually half way between Junction 5 and 4, although a non-stupid layout and not skimping on the M62ORR would have helped too. As would the M58 being finished...

And J6 serves as the main junction for most of the South Pennine Moors and Southern Lancashire with it being the main access to the A6 south of Chorley... and with a bit of investment, the main routes from Wigan and N Liverpool would meet at HWI too...

HWI wouldn't be used by vehicles from Manchester for P&R, that would be reserved for the likes of better parking at Bolton, Walkden, Prestwich, etc etc etc

 

[yorksrob]

I'd have thought that for a City like Manchester, the bigger priority would be getting people in, spending, rather than preventing outsiders from using their car parks.

If people are determined to drive into the GMPTE area to park, they're probably going to continue regardless, until either the congestion on the motorway gets so bad that they catch the train from Preston (for example), or the pricing differential's reduced between Manchester and the rest of Lancashire.

 

[Nym]

Somwhere like Horwich that will soon be able to see 4tph into Manchester would be an ideal place for pepole to stop, since after there is where the Motorway starts to slow down significantly for the M60, if not on their first travels into Manchester but potentially on subsiquent journies.

Somthing similar could and should be provided at Middleton with the easy access to the M62 and Manchester Airport for the M56 (Since Airport - Manchester is massively over provided for anyway) why not use the Area 7 car park (Opersite the bus station) for Park & Ride passengers?

BIIIG Mulistorey, parking offset against NR tickets into Manchester / Salford.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Can I remind our forum members that Leigh is the focus of this particular thread and the current divergences from this "forgotten" area by the TfGM transport planners looks like being reflected by our forum members.

Leigh is a former Lancashire County Council administered area and is centrally placed between Wigan, St Helens and Warrington. Look to those three towns (two of which are not in TfGM administered territory) to see if any cross-border discussions could take place which would benefit that area as a whole.

It might sound naive, but Leigh finds itself in need of far better non-road transport links to other areas than it currently enjoys.

 

[tbtc]

The Walkden line is fully integrated with the National network with trains connecting at Salford Crescent and Victoria and continuing beyond Wigan at the other end. There would be little benefit in turning this long, fairly rural/inter-urban route into a slower, separated tram service, other than to aid GMPTE’s empire building and self-aggrandisement.

Well, converting it to tram (or guided bus or whatever) would free up a couple of paths at Salford, maybe you could divert the Wigan - Manchester trains via Bolton (which is a busier market than Atherton)?

Running all five of the current Manchester - Wigan services via Bolton would strengthen the case for electrification (as it'd only have to be wired from Bolton)

Just a thought,

 

[yorksrob]

Well, converting it to tram (or guided bus or whatever) would free up a couple of paths at Salford, maybe you could divert the Wigan - Manchester trains via Bolton (which is a busier market than Atherton)?

Running all five of the current Manchester - Wigan services via Bolton would strengthen the case for electrification (as it'd only have to be wired from Bolton)

Just a thought,

All well and good but these don't appear to benefit intermediate passengers on the Atherton line much.

 

[142094]

If it was built however it is almost certain that it would not be electrified and what you woudl get would be Pacers, which are hardly likely to attract teh sort of passengers who dont like Trams or busses.

Have a look at Ebbw Vale Parkway - that line is run using Pacers and they had more than double the amount of people forcast use it in its first month.

I'm sure a lot of people who have cars and live outside the Manchester area will choose to use a train to get into Manchester if they had the choice.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I'm sure a lot of people who have cars and live outside the Manchester area will choose to use a train to get into Manchester if they had the choice.

The Metroshuttle bus routes 1, 2, 3 which are free, then give onward excellent coverage of Manchester city centre from the railway stations, which would also be attractive to those existing car drivers switching to train travel, as those that you describe above. However, you have to remember that not all railway stations have enough car parking spaces to allow this to happen.

With this thread being about Leigh, I thought that I would see what the current bus service provision to larger areas is (it does have quite a good local area service) and have found the following:-
Atherton
682
Bolton
551,553,581,582,592
Horwich
516,517
Manchester & Salford
12,26,X34(express)
St Helens
34
Warrington
19,28
Wigan
600,601,658

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Matters have moved on with this project and January 2012 has seen the commencement of the tree clearance programme along the route of the old railway line from Leigh to Ellenbrook as part of the works that are required to be made for the Leigh Guided Busway project.

TfGM had written a letter on 12th December 2011 to all those residents affected by this work and enclosed full details of the project with each letter sent.

 

[Firesprite]

Bit of snow on Saturday Night and Sunday resulted in the Cambridgeshire Misguided
busway being closed. Council unable to keep busway clear of snow between buses.

 

[WatcherZero]

Indeed look at Heathrow too, half its flights cancelled and a third cancelled 8 hours before the first snowflake fell, flights redirected to Barecelona. Seems to be a Southener thing, perhaps they just dont get it as often as we do. Kent rail network shut down but the roads managed to stay open.

 

[Firesprite]

It shows just how useless a misguided busway is. In Essen I seen teams of turks shoving snow out of the last remaining busways in the city. Snow ploughs don't work

 

[WatcherZero]

No they wouldnt, luckily we can afford deicer chemicals and salt in this country.

 

[tbtc]

I thought Cambridgeshire were buying a specially adapted vehicle that *could* remove the snow from the busway?

 

[185]

Well, should be some reliable local operators chosen to run on the busway.....

 

[Nym]

Isn't exactly news 185, who expects any First bus to turn up on time? I have stood waiting for 25mins for one before, the SLT bus turns up, I get on it, and theres FOUR First buses behind me!

Whats worse is that I live about 7mins bus ride from a timing point...!

 

[185]

Oh, I reckon it should be news. There was a winning comment that the MEN picked up on at the transport tribunal, made by Ken Poole, who used to run First Crosville.....

Why haven't the improvements been made on that route?
"We haven't got round to it yet...." (?!!?)

As much as I don't like Beverley Bell, for previously picking only on the little operators and easy targets, she has redeemed herself and really gone to town on FirstGroup here.

 

[WatcherZero]

I thought Cambridgeshire were buying a specially adapted vehicle that *could* remove the snow from the busway?

Theres a plough for the cycle lane/access road and a guided deicer which sprays salt water I believe.

 

[Firesprite]

I thought Cambridgeshire were buying a specially adapted vehicle that *could* remove the snow from the busway?

It was unable to cope with the snow, The council gave up and buses went along the A14. My office overlooks misguided busway. I was in Saturday and Sunday, And did not see a single bus when the snow started. The so called specially adapted vehicle has never been tested with snow until now.
The snow just compacted under the wheels, lifting the guide wheels above the level of the busway.

 

[WatcherZero]

Did work in November though when it was patrolling to remove ice from the road and prevented any closures. But anyway if the snow was bad enough to close rail lines what hope a road?

 

[tbtc]

if the snow was bad enough to close rail lines what hope a road?

Fair point