LM and Northern may benefit from 317s released.

[Nym]

Not really, 6m to spare Depends on how accurately the drivers can stop, and where they put the stop boards...

 

[Eagle]

Not really, 6m to spare Depends on how accurately the drivers can stop, and where they put the stop boards...

Looking at Google Maps, there seems to be enough room to extend platforms 1 and 5 about 15-20 metres to the east without having to reconfigure the track.

 

[Nym]

Indeed... But you would struggle to get up to 160m that would be the next step up... Could add an extra platform in the car park and maybe edge it up to 138m, but if you're going that far, you'd need track mods, so why not go for 160m...

 

[northwichcat]

4tph Fast come in from Diggle to Victoria
2tph of these continue to Manchester Airport via Ordsall Cord, Manchester Oxford Road and Piccadilly
1 or 2tph of these continue to Liverpool Lime Street via Chat Moss
1tph MAY continue to Chester via Warrington Bank Quay in Lieu of a Liverpool Lime Street via Chat Moss

The Chester line is now expected to get Llandundo-Victoria-Bradford-Leeds hourly (running semi-fast between Chester and Manchester) and Chester-Manchester Piccadilly-Manchester Airport hourly doing all stops the Llandudno service currently does.

The Chester-Huddersfield-Leeds proposals have been dropped as a result of the electrification announcement.

2tph Semi Fast via Diggle in lieu of 1tph stopper, running into either Piccadilly via Guide Bridge or Victoria via Ashton U Lyne.

Almost certainly Piccadilly now. It's likely there will be 2 stoppers per hour between Stalybridge and Lime Street via Chat Moss (not from Huddersfield/Leeds) which will serve Ashton. That will mean the semi-fasts will have to go to Piccadilly as there won't be enough Victoria paths from the East.

LM have been looking at additional stock post the 350/3, with a view to getting Desiro City units. No reason they can't have 4 car units with gangways in the front like the 350's.

All operators would like more stock. Being required to run more services does not always result in more stock being allocated - just look at the TPE franchise.

Any discussion on proposed timetable changes from Dec 2013 must be purely academic at this point anyway. The ICWC ITT states the franchise winner will be required to keep the current timetable until Dec 2013 when they can implement changes. As the winner of the franchise won't even be announced until the Summer, what LM want to do is fairly irrelevant at the moment as any timetable changes will need to be compatible with those.

It's not just a case of what LM want to do but also what Network Rail think they should do. It's Network Rail's idea to make changes to the Stone/Stoke services not LM's.

 

[Batman]

So let me get this straight.

The plan is for LM to gain three 321's and five 322's from Northern on a tempoary basis from December 2013, untill the eight new 350's arrive in 2014? The extension of the Euston - Crewe service to Liverpool and the diversion of 1 Birmingham - Liverpool train per hour to Preston can be accommodated with existing rolling stock? The extra untis will opperate the new Birmingham - Manchester semi-fast service from December 2013, for which a draft timetable has already been worked out, and thses services will go over to 350 opperation when the new rolling stock arrives in 2014?

Northern will use the 323's displaced from the Stoke service to remove Pacers from the Manchester Crewe services at peak times and possible to extend this service to Alsager, Kidsgrove and Stoke every hour?

So this means that no Euston local services will be lengthened and it does not address the issue of how extra 323's will be found for the Birmingham cross city line?

Have I got this one right or have I missed the point somewhere along the line?

 

[northwichcat]

The extension of the Euston - Crewe service to Liverpool and the diversion of 1 Birmingham - Liverpool train per hour to Preston can be accommodated with existing rolling stock?

Yes. LM submitted plans to the ORR stating how it can be achieved with their existing 321, 350/1 and 350/2 fleets, the plans were upheld until the next WCML timetable is known.

Incidentally are the new LM 350s going to be 350/3s? I thought they were going to have the same spec as the 350/2s and the 350/3s would be a revised spec for the TPE services.

The extra untis will opperate the new Birmingham - Manchester semi-fast service from December 2013, for which a draft timetable has already been worked out

AFAIK there is no draft timetable for that change. It would involve the LM timetable being revised so that the Euston service is routed away from Stone, with Stone being served by the slow Manchester-Birmingham service - it wouldn't be a semi-fast service it would be an extension of the Northern Manchester-Stoke service which is a stopper.

 

[Wath Yard]

It's not just a case of what LM want to do but also what Network Rail think they should do. It's Network Rail's idea to make changes to the Stone/Stoke services not LM's.

The final decision will rest with the ORR. If the ICWC franchise winner bases their premium payments on increased services on a certain line that would conflict with these plans, whether proposed by LM or NR, there is only going to be one winner.

 

[150222]

Northern's 321/322's don't have first class!

 

[LE Greys]

Why dont the 317/7s just go to FCC (who already operate 317s) and then they send their 321s to LM to do the BHM - Manchester trains.

Because they spent enough time trying to get rid of the things in favour of the more powerful 321s. Corridor connections aren't much use in a DOO zone. How about, why don't we get the 321s an someone else get's lumbered with our 317s?

 

[dvboy]

Platform 5 at Wolves can hold four cars, according to Quail, but it looks tight to me in real life.

I only ask because I think I've seen 350s on Platform 5 before, but not sure if they were 3 or 4 cars.

 

[tbtc]

I only ask because I think I've seen 350s on Platform 5 before, but not sure if they were 3 or 4 cars.

All 350s are four coaches long

 

[dvboy]

All 350s are four coaches long

That's answered that question then!

 

[The Planner]

Indeed... But you would struggle to get up to 160m that would be the next step up... Could add an extra platform in the car park and maybe edge it up to 138m, but if you're going that far, you'd need track mods, so why not go for 160m...

Unlikely, Wolves gets re-signalled in 2014, that won't be factored in and would require changes at a very late stage.

 

[Aictos]

Because they spent enough time trying to get rid of the things in favour of the more powerful 321s. Corridor connections aren't much use in a DOO zone. How about, why don't we get the 321s an someone else get's lumbered with our 317s?

Which is precisely what I've always said, let the class 317 fleet currently operated by First Capital Connect to relocate to Greater Anglia this would be made possible by relocating London Midland's 30 class 321s to First Capital Connect with Greater Anglia or Northern getting the other 7 class 321s.

London Midland in return would order enough class 350s to both cover the class 321s relocating but also enough to strengthen their Euston services/extend or introduce existing services.

Or let Greater Anglia have the 5 class 322s and the 7 class 321/4s plus the 3 class 321/9s and let Northern have the class 317s from First Capital Connect.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Now being totally selfish as I do believe in Self preservation (it pays the bills) if Northern lose the Stokes what will happen to the 20 or so duagrams not needed?

when people look at things like Timetable changes etc, no one actually considers the effect it can have on a depot, a simple thing like taking Stokes away can leave a Depot over manned by say 10 guards, which after time will decrease a depot's size and create job losses in areas where unemployment is high (North west is a perfect example)

The Stoke service at present works well, it is reliable well used and Northern have done an excellent job with it, so why should they lose it and London Midland get it?, our drivers and guards used to sign all the way down to Birmingham so why shouldn't a Depot like Picc get the work

Just my thoughts...

 

[tbtc]

Which is precisely what I've always said, let the class 317 fleet currently operated by First Capital Connect to relocate to Greater Anglia this would be made possible by relocating London Midland's 30 class 321s to First Capital Connect

They only have seven 321s IIRC
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Now being totally selfish as I do believe in Self preservation (it pays the bills) if Northern lose the Stokes what will happen to the 20 or so duagrams not needed?

when people look at things like Timetable changes etc, no one actually considers the effect it can have on a depot, a simple thing like taking Stokes away can leave a Depot over manned by say 10 guards, which after time will decrease a depot's size and create job losses in areas where unemployment is high (North west is a perfect example)

The Stoke service at present works well, it is reliable well used and Northern have done an excellent job with it, so why should they lose it and London Midland get it?, our drivers and guards used to sign all the way down to Birmingham so why shouldn't a Depot like Picc get the work

Just my thoughts...

Although there's a lot of speculation/ supposition/ guesswork in this thread, my understanding was that the total number of Northern services would be going up (e.g. talk of additional Wigan services). But it's hard to sort the truth from the guesses etc

 

[150222]

Now being totally selfish as I do believe in Self preservation (it pays the bills) if Northern lose the Stokes what will happen to the 20 or so duagrams not needed?

when people look at things like Timetable changes etc, no one actually considers the effect it can have on a depot, a simple thing like taking Stokes away can leave a Depot over manned by say 10 guards, which after time will decrease a depot's size and create job losses in areas where unemployment is high (North west is a perfect example)

The Stoke service at present works well, it is reliable well used and Northern have done an excellent job with it, so why should they lose it and London Midland get it?, our drivers and guards used to sign all the way down to Birmingham so why shouldn't a Depot like Picc get the work

Just my thoughts...

I agree that the Stoke works well enough already but How do you know that London Midland won't open a base at piccadilly and take on surplus northern guards?

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I agree that the Stoke works well enough already but How do you know that London Midland won't open a base at piccadilly and take on surplus northern guards?

Yeah right lol and I will get a 50% pay rise in April lol

 

[Stonesourscotty]

Wouldnt that make some form of sense a combined tpe/lm base in Manchester for Electric Units? or have i missed somthing from this topic?

 

[150222]

Wouldnt that make some form of sense a combined tpe/lm base in Manchester for Electric Units? or have i missed somthing from this topic?

In theory it could work however it would never happen on a privatised railway. For a start the uniforms would not match. Plus TPE electric guards will probably sign 185's & other north west routes as well.

 

[IanXC]

What I fail to see in all this is how it makes sense to add a new temporary type of stock to both Northern's east and west sides. East will have to have training for 317s then less than a year on be re-accredited to sign 321/322. West side end up adding 317s to their roster and then 319s later too.

Surely the whole thing makes much more sense if the 317s take over the duties the LM 321s currently do, plus some of the Walsall work, then the 321s take on some of the strengthening work, and maybe a couple of 323s go from LM to Northern in Manchester.

Seems like another LM ploy to make sure they have the nicest shiniest stock at every point.

 

[fgwrich]

What I fail to see in all this is how it makes sense to add a new temporary type of stock to both Northern's east and west sides. East will have to have training for 317s then less than a year on be re-accredited to sign 321/322. West side end up adding 317s to their roster and then 319s later too.

Surely the whole thing makes much more sense if the 317s take over the duties the LM 321s currently do, plus some of the Walsall work, then the 321s take on some of the strengthening work, and maybe a couple of 323s go from LM to Northern in Manchester.

Seems like another LM ploy to make sure they have the nicest shiniest stock at every point.

Which would also make slightly better use of the First Class area in the 317/7s - as apposed to putting them onto non FC services in a company that has 0 first class services altogther...

 

[tbtc]

What I fail to see in all this is how it makes sense to add a new temporary type of stock to both Northern's east and west sides. East will have to have training for 317s then less than a year on be re-accredited to sign 321/322. West side end up adding 317s to their roster and then 319s later too.

Surely the whole thing makes much more sense if the 317s take over the duties the LM 321s currently do, plus some of the Walsall work, then the 321s take on some of the strengthening work, and maybe a couple of 323s go from LM to Northern in Manchester.

Seems like another LM ploy to make sure they have the nicest shiniest stock at every point.

To be fair, we don't even know where the suggestion comes from; the OP didn't contain a link - I've not seen anything official to suggest Leeds getting 317s to send 321/322s to LM so that the 321/322s can move to Manchester in a couple of years time - it seems unnecessarily complicated (which might be evidence of its authenticity, of course!)

 

[34D]

Northern's 321/322's don't have first class!

The 322s do (declassified), but yes the 321/9s are standard only.

Can someone tell me precisely why Leeds-Man Air are going to be routed via victoria, oxford road and piccadilly (and when from)?

Also is it a definite conclusion that 110mph class 350 desiros are going to be ordered for Transpennine?

Leeds-Llandudno sounds interesting - this of course used to exist (via Hudd) as a trans pennine route - which TOC would operate this out of ATW TPE or Northern?

 

[DjU]

Which is precisely what I've always said, let the class 317 fleet currently operated by First Capital Connect to relocate to Greater Anglia this would be made possible by relocating London Midland's 30 class 321s to First Capital Connect with Greater Anglia or Northern getting the other 7 class 321s.

London Midland in return would order enough class 350s to both cover the class 321s relocating but also enough to strengthen their Euston services/extend or introduce existing services.

Or let Greater Anglia have the 5 class 322s and the 7 class 321/4s plus the 3 class 321/9s and let Northern have the class 317s from First Capital Connect.

If we are talking pie in the sky, surely a refinement of the idea above would be;

LM - Enough 350s to replace the 321s and other commitments etc

FCC - 7x 321/4s from LM and 5x 322s from Northern -> Replace the 12x 317/1 = homogenised fleet of 25x 321 / 322 units over a split of 13x 321 and 12x 317.

Northern - 9x 317/7 replace the Leeds allocation of 3x 321 / 5x 322 = boost of 1 unit
12x 317/1 to Manchester / Liverpool when the wires are up.

The 3x 321/9s could go to boost the Greater Anglia 321 fleet a little after the loss of the 317/7s


The major flaw in the plan is the already mentioned problem of is having to train all the relevant Northern drivers on to the 317s instead of the 321s
(plus some units like the 321/9s would have to have things like 1st class fitted - but thats relativly minor).

All pie in the sky though

 

[150222]

Where is declassified first on a 322? I never noticed.

 

[Aictos]

They only have seven 321s IIRC

I was in fact referring to the 37 Class 321/4s that London Midland did have prior to the May 2010/2011 timetable change when they got shot of all the 321/4s except for 7 which they use on the Euston to St Albans Abbey service.

By all rights, the 317s that FCC have ought to gone elsewhere with FCC getting the lion's share of the 321/4 fleet.

Then again, First could have placed a order for Class 350s either in 4 or 5 car formations which could have been cascaded to TPE once the wires are up with the Desiros being replaced by NXEMUs.

 

[Minstral25]

The Current "FCC" 317's and 321's will be available by 2018 anyway when the Thameslink stock is all delivered and the non-Thameslink services outer suburban services on the ECML are solely run by 365's (leaving 313's on the Moorgate services).

Why would anyone swap stuff around for a couple of years

 

[northwichcat]

To be fair, we don't even know where the suggestion comes from; the OP didn't contain a link

Like I said it's off a blog someone's written. I suggested it's a rumour more than anything else and other posters may know more. I tried to post a link to the blog but for some reason it redirects to the blogger.com homepage. It seems no-one does know more so it's probably just someone's idea or educated guess.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Northern - 9x 317/7 replace the Leeds allocation of 3x 321 / 5x 322 = boost of 1 unit
12x 317/1 to Manchester / Liverpool when the wires are up.

The 3x 321/9s could go to boost the Greater Anglia 321 fleet a little after the loss of the 317/7s

Abellio have proposed losing 9 of the 317s, despite 12 of them being outside the franchise allocation following the introduction of the 379s.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

the non-Thameslink services outer suburban services on the ECML are solely run by 365's

The Guardian stated that EMUs off London services which are due for replacement under IEP would go North after TPE electrification. This suggests 365s but again that's not official just what one party stated would happen.

 

[34D]

Where is declassified first on a 322? I never noticed.

Behind one of the driving cabs. A couple of the sets certainly have it. The whole train has been remoquetted in the same moquette now though.

The major flaw in the plan is the already mentioned problem of is having to train all the relevant Northern drivers on to the 317s instead of the 321s
(plus some units like the 321/9s would have to have things like 1st class fitted - but thats relativly minor).

All pie in the sky though

2 day conversion course I believe. A trainer could even be sent from Abellio Greater Anglia to Abellio Northern..... Okay I'll stop being silly.

The 377/1 at FCC have been modified for DOO with the door control on the master switch, and guards door positions would require re-activation. Far better surely to keep the gangwayed units in the south east where they are used in 8 and 12 car formations.

Then again, First could have placed a order for Class 350s either in 4 or 5 car formations which could have been cascaded to TPE once the wires are up with the Desiros being replaced by NXEMUs.

As you know, that isn't how rolling stock procurement works...

Like I said it's off a blog someone's written. I suggested it's a rumour more than anything else and other posters may know more. I tried to post a link to the blog but for some reason it redirects to the blogger.com homepage. It seems no-one does know more so it's probably just someone's idea or educated guess.

A screen-shot perhaps? That shows the URL field so others can try?