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LM and Northern may benefit from 317s released.

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northwichcat

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I don't know if anyone can comment on the following I've found on a blog. It appears to be a rumour and depend on service changes being approved.

Northern Rail may take on the Class 317/7s in time for the December 2013 timetable change. They would then sublease their Class 321s and Class 322s to LM until their additional 350s arrive in 2014. This would allow London Midland to take on Northern's Manchester to Stoke service from December 2013 (the date of the next WCML timetable recast) and to extend it to Birmingham, as well as running the new Birmingham to Preston and Liverpool to Euston services at the expense of one of the Liverpool to Birminghams. The Class 323s released off the Manchester to Stoke service would then be freed up to replace the Class 142s on peak time Crewe services. The Class 321s and 322s would arrive back at Northern in time for when electrification of Manchester to Liverpool is complete.
 
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David Goddard

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Why dont the 317/7s just go to FCC (who already operate 317s) and then they send their 321s to LM to do the BHM - Manchester trains.
 

Eagle

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Is there a plan to run LM services into Manchester?

Part of a complicated shakeup of services round Stoke and Crewe that LM are proposing for the WCML recast next December.

EDIT: ...as detailed in post #1. Overall effect: one of the Birmingham–Liverpools goes to Preston instead; the Euston–Crewe is extended to Liverpool and diverted way from Stoke; the Manchester–Stoke stopper is extended to Birmingham, and one of the two XC services to Manchester is diverted via Crewe.
 

Nym

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Will be nice if they do, some real price competition on the London route from Manchester, price war if you please :D

Especially if they run to Preston, Manchester and Liverpool from Stafford, maybe more TV 'slow' services around the other ends of the day for some real comtetition on the route?
 

Eagle

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Will be nice if they do, some real price competition on the London route from Manchester, price war if you please :D

Plus, Birmingham gets loads more connections to the north and Liverpool gets its second train to London it seems so insistent on.
 

Ivo

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Allowing for this plan and the upcoming TPE changes, will it become possible to go all the way from London to Glasgow on a 350? It certainly looks that way!
 

tbtc

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Liverpool gets its second train to London it seems so insistent on

The current LM service takes around 1h15 longer between London and Crewe than the two Virgin services.

Even taking away the "via Stoke" part would mean Liverpool's second train to London would be significantly slower.

Maybe some cheap tickets will attract Scousers to ditch their 2h10 trip on an eleven coach Pendolino (as the Liverpool service will be, by the time these proposals happen) for a trip lasting almost three and a half hours on a 350, but it'd be of minimal impact on most of the Liverpool - London market.

And if you ditch the Stoke part of the LM service (as well as losing the service from the Potteries to other Trent Valley stations) you reduce the Stoke - Crewe capacity down by about 80% (a four coach 350 and a single 153 an hour replaced by just a single 153).

Are cheap London trips (and giving LM a share of the Preston ORCATS money) more important than local links?
 

IanXC

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Maybe some cheap tickets will attract Scousers to ditch their 2h10 trip on an eleven coach Pendolino (as the Liverpool service will be, by the time these proposals happen) for a trip lasting almost three and a half hours on a 350, but it'd be of minimal impact on most of the Liverpool - London market.

Has a solution been found for 11 car Pendolino operation at Lime Street?
 

ukrob

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Has a solution been found for 11 car Pendolino operation at Lime Street?

Nobody had ever given any evidence that there is a problem to start with. All gossip and rumours I think.
 

Batman

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Two points to make about this.

1) What will happen when the 321's and 322's go back to Manchester? As I understand it, LM are only getting 8 new 350's. 3 will be used to lengthen peak time Euston service and 5 will be used to replace 323's on the Walsall - Birmingham - Wolverhampton stopping service so that these 323's can go to the Cross City to lengthen trains ready for the 3tph Redditch service (which I think is planned to start in December 2014).

2) I thought the RUS ruled out a Birmingham to Manchester semi fast service because a path could not be found between Wolverhampton and Birmingham.

It did suggest running the service through to Walsall with it effectivly being an hourly extension to the Walsall - Birmingham - Wolverhampton stopper, but this was ruled out.

I've thought of a couple of alternative myself, but they both have drawbacks. They are;

1) Replace the Smethwick Gaulton Bridge stop on the xx01 New Street to Liverpool service with a stop at Sandwell and Dudley and replace the S&D stop with a SGB stop on the xx05 New Street to Shrewsbury service. This would allow the the Liverpool service to opperate as an 8 car train from Birmingham to Stafford where the train would split (one half to Liverpool, and one half to Stoke and Manchester). This would add time to the Birmingham - Liverpool service and would mean that this train won't be able to use platform 4C at New Street (as it does at present). There would also be problems at Penkridge because some xx01 departures from New Street stop there in the peaks. Either the platforms at Penkridge would have to be extended to 8 car length or extra rolling stock would be needed so that some peak time Birmingham - Wolverhampton stoppers can be extended to Stafford with a stop at Penkridge.

2) The Birmingham - Manchester semi-fast runs fast between Birmingham and Wolverhampton, but the hourly xx05 Birmingham - Shresbury LM service is re-routed to run via the Grand Junction line with a stop at Tame Bridge Parkway. This would give a 5tph service from Tame Bridge to New Street and would meet Centro's long term aspiration for a direct hourly service from Tame Bridge to Wolverhampton. But this would add 10 minutes to the Birmingham to Shrewsbury journey time and trains would clash with Chase Line trains between Bescot and Perry Barr.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Two points to make about this.

1) What will happen when the 321's and 322's go back to Manchester? As I understand it, LM are only getting 8 new 350's. 3 will be used to lengthen peak time Euston service and 5 will be used to replace 323's on the Walsall - Birmingham - Wolverhampton stopping service so that these 323's can go to the Cross City to lengthen trains ready for the 3tph Redditch service (which I think is planned to start in December 2014).

2) I thought the RUS ruled out a Birmingham to Manchester semi fast service because a path could not be found between Wolverhampton and Birmingham.

It did suggest running the service through to Walsall with it effectivly being an hourly extension to the Walsall - Birmingham - Wolverhampton stopper, but this was ruled out.

I've thought of a couple of alternative myself, but they both have drawbacks. They are;

1) Replace the Smethwick Gaulton Bridge stop on the xx01 New Street to Liverpool service with a stop at Sandwell and Dudley and replace the S&D stop with a SGB stop on the xx05 New Street to Shrewsbury service. This would allow the the Liverpool service to opperate as an 8 car train from Birmingham to Stafford where the train would split (one half to Liverpool, and one half to Stoke and Manchester). This would add time to the Birmingham - Liverpool service and would mean that this train won't be able to use platform 4C at New Street (as it does at present). There would also be problems at Penkridge because some xx01 departures from New Street stop there in the peaks. Either the platforms at Penkridge would have to be extended to 8 car length or extra rolling stock would be needed so that some peak time Birmingham - Wolverhampton stoppers can be extended to Stafford with a stop at Penkridge.

2) The Birmingham - Manchester semi-fast runs fast between Birmingham and Wolverhampton, but the hourly xx05 Birmingham - Shresbury LM service is re-routed to run via the Grand Junction line with a stop at Tame Bridge Parkway. This would give a 5tph service from Tame Bridge to New Street and would meet Centro's long term aspiration for a direct hourly service from Tame Bridge to Wolverhampton. But this would add 10 minutes to the Birmingham to Shrewsbury journey time and trains would clash with Chase Line trains between Bescot and Perry Barr.

Or perhaps the Birmingham - Manchester smei-fast could run via Tame Bridge, if they can get the paths right.
 

martinsh

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The current LM service takes around 1h15 longer between London and Crewe than the two Virgin services.

Even taking away the "via Stoke" part would mean Liverpool's second train to London would be significantly slower.

Maybe some cheap tickets will attract Scousers to ditch their 2h10 trip on an eleven coach Pendolino (as the Liverpool service will be, by the time these proposals happen) for a trip lasting almost three and a half hours on a 350, but it'd be of minimal impact on most of the Liverpool - London market.

There is already a surprisingly large amount of through travel by LM from Liverpool - London changing at Stafford. [ Travel on any Liverpool - Birmingham and you will see several people asking station staff at Stafford which is the correct platofrm for London ! ]
 

Nym

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You do know that the 323s released from the Stoke route is nowhere near enough to cover the planned Wigan services in 2013 and Liverpool in 2014...
 

34D

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Allowing for this plan and the upcoming TPE changes, will it become possible to go all the way from London to Glasgow on a 350? It certainly looks that way!

When does moderation of competition (for the intercity west coast franchise) end please?

What is the latest re the TP changes - are they going back to Victoria then (presumably not the airports)?

Interesting ideas, though I seriously hope that the desiro service through Stoke doesn't deteriorate - especially when it would be nice if Barleston could actually be served - see my thread http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=58814
 

Nym

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TPE Changes will be (Working from various RUS proposals, don't bit the condensed message of the messager!)

I'm only mentioning the core, sod knows what's happening outside with RE electrification...

4tph Fast come in from Diggle to Victoria
2tph of these continue to Manchester Airport via Ordsall Cord, Manchester Oxford Road and Piccadilly
1 or 2tph of these continue to Liverpool Lime Street via Chat Moss
1tph MAY continue to Chester via Warrington Bank Quay in Lieu of a Liverpool Lime Street via Chat Moss

There will also be an additional 2tph extending from a selection of:
Airport via Cord from Leeds via Sumit Tunnel and Todmorden (Most Likely)
Airport via Cord from Sheffeild via New Mills & Ashton Moss / Phillips Park

And an additional:
2tph Semi Fast via Diggle in lieu of 1tph stopper, running into either Piccadilly via Guide Bridge or Victoria via Ashton U Lyne.
 

northwichcat

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Interesting, can provide a link to the blog?

For some reason if I try to provide a link to the blog it redirects to the blogger.com homepage.

Why dont the 317/7s just go to FCC (who already operate 317s) and then they send their 321s to LM to do the BHM - Manchester trains.

Would that actually work any better? It would leave FCC with just 3 sets of 321s.

Are cheap London trips (and giving LM a share of the Preston ORCATS money) more important than local links?

There are local benefits that will be made by the proposed LM changes. Warrington and Crewe will be linked by additional services as will Preston and Wigan, while Hartford will get a direct Warrington link.


As I understand it, LM are only getting 8 new 350's. 3 will be used to lengthen peak time Euston service and 5 will be used to replace 323's on the Walsall - Birmingham - Wolverhampton stopping service so that these 323's can go to the Cross City to lengthen trains ready for the 3tph Redditch service (which I think is planned to start in December 2014).

Wait a minute when people have mentioned 323s being replaced by 4 car EMUs before a platform length issue keeps getting brought up.

LM actually drew up a full timetable of how they would run the revised timetable (ignoring the Manchester-Birmingham stopper) utilising their existing 321s and 350s.

If they get 110mph running on the 350s will that free up any units?

though I seriously hope that the desiro service through Stoke doesn't deteriorate

Stoke will lose a Desiro service to Crewe but it may be replaced by either a 323 operated service in the form of an extension of the Manchester to Crewe via Manchester Airport service.
 
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The Planner

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LM actually drew up a full timetable of how they would run the revised timetable (ignoring the Manchester-Birmingham stopper) utilising their existing 321s and 350s

Which would make sense, as I bet they can't make it work with a Manchester Brum stopper in the mix. Without some serious re-shuffling along the New St - Wolves corridor, or making the existing stopper a skip stop and the Manc service a skip stop that train ain't fitting...
 

dvboy

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1) Replace the Smethwick Gaulton Bridge stop on the xx01 New Street to Liverpool service with a stop at Sandwell and Dudley and replace the S&D stop with a SGB stop on the xx05 New Street to Shrewsbury service. This would allow the the Liverpool service to opperate as an 8 car train from Birmingham to Stafford where the train would split (one half to Liverpool, and one half to Stoke and Manchester). This would add time to the Birmingham - Liverpool service and would mean that this train won't be able to use platform 4C at New Street (as it does at present). There would also be problems at Penkridge because some xx01 departures from New Street stop there in the peaks. Either the platforms at Penkridge would have to be extended to 8 car length or extra rolling stock would be needed so that some peak time Birmingham - Wolverhampton stoppers can be extended to Stafford with a stop at Penkridge.

I like this idea provided it improves connections at SGB onto the Snow Hill line. The Shrewsbury trains already use 4C in the evening, with the Liverpool trains on 4B.

2) The Birmingham - Manchester semi-fast runs fast between Birmingham and Wolverhampton, but the hourly xx05 Birmingham - Shresbury LM service is re-routed to run via the Grand Junction line with a stop at Tame Bridge Parkway. This would give a 5tph service from Tame Bridge to New Street and would meet Centro's long term aspiration for a direct hourly service from Tame Bridge to Wolverhampton. But this would add 10 minutes to the Birmingham to Shrewsbury journey time and trains would clash with Chase Line trains between Bescot and Perry Barr.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Or perhaps the Birmingham - Manchester smei-fast could run via Tame Bridge, if they can get the paths right.

Having been on a service that was diverted via Tame Bridge last week, with the overall delay being just 4 minutes, I put it to @londonmidland that some non-stop services could run that way so that they're less likely to get stuck behind stoppers. I think if you took the non-stop or one-stop via Tame Bridge, you'd still get to Wolves sooner than waiting for the next service on the current route.
 

Batman

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How many extra units do LM actually need for the new services (Birmingham to Preston, Birmingham to Manchester, London to Liverpool)?

Sorry, I forgot that the Northern 321's and 322's are Leeds based, but LM will only be gaining 3 321's and 5 322's.

From December 2013, these could opperate Euston locals, whilst 8 350's opperate the new services in the Midlands and North West.

When LM's 8 new 350's arrive in 2014, they could go onto opperating Euston locals with the 322's going to the West Midlands to opperate the Walsall - Wolverhampton service with 5 323's going to the cross city line.

It's just a suggestion, but it would involve the Northern 321's and 322's staying with LM perminantly.
 

Class377/5

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LM have been looking at additional stock post the 350/3, with a view to getting Desiro City units. No reason they can't have 4 car units with gangways in the front like the 350's.
 

Batman

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Wait a minute when people have mentioned 323s being replaced by 4 car EMUs before a platform length issue keeps getting brought up.

LM actually drew up a full timetable of how they would run the revised timetable (ignoring the Manchester-Birmingham stopper) utilising their existing 321s and 350s.

If they get 110mph running on the 350s will that free up any units?



Stoke will lose a Desiro service to Crewe but it may be replaced by either a 323 operated service in the form of an extension of the Manchester to Crewe via Manchester Airport service.


Platform length issue have been raised before about placing 323's with 350's in the West Midlands. That only involves the Cross City line where platforms are 6 car length and trains need to be doubled up at peak times. I'm suggesting introducing 350's to replace the five 323's that currently work the Walsall - Birmingham - Wolverhampton stopper. All stations this service calls out have at least 4 car platform lengths.

If 323's are displaced from the Manchester - Stoke stopper by the new semi-fast train, those 323's could be used to extend the hourly Manchester - Crewe stopper to Stoke via Kidsgrove.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I like this idea provided it improves connections at SGB onto the Snow Hill line. The Shrewsbury trains already use 4C in the evening, with the Liverpool trains on 4B.



Having been on a service that was diverted via Tame Bridge last week, with the overall delay being just 4 minutes, I put it to @londonmidland that some non-stop services could run that way so that they're less likely to get stuck behind stoppers. I think if you took the non-stop or one-stop via Tame Bridge, you'd still get to Wolves sooner than waiting for the next service on the current route.

I like the idea of running some trains via Tame Bridge, especially if journey times won't be as bad as I first thought they would be. It might be possible if there is a re-cast of the Chase Line timetable, but some longer distance trains may still get stuck behind Walsall stoppers.
 

dvboy

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I'm suggesting introducing 350's to replace the five 323's that currently work the Walsall - Birmingham - Wolverhampton stopper. All stations this service calls out have at least 4 car platform lengths.

Is Plat 5 at WVH a 4 car length?
 

Batman

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Is Plat 5 at WVH a 4 car length?

I'm not sure. Those trains have a 16 minute turn around time on the current timetable, so asuming there is no major re-timing of the Wolves-Brum stoppers, it may be possible for them to run to Oxley and back to reverse.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
They also have a 16 minute turn around at Walsall as well. That can very easily be reduced to 6 minutes if they depart New Street at xx27 and xx57 instead of xx17 and xx47. That will need to happen when they Aldirdge extension is built and a 6th unit is needed, and it may also be suggested if there is a Chase Line timetable recast to accommodadte the extra trains running through Tame Bridge, as I've allready mentioned.
 

swt_passenger

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LM have been looking at additional stock post the 350/3, with a view to getting Desiro City units.

Exactly - and they'll need more stock if any new routes are handed to them to operate.

The 8 units on order for 2014 are already fully accounted for in strengthening existing services, they are nothing whatsoever to do with additional services that are yet to be finalised.
 

Wath Yard

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Any discussion on proposed timetable changes from Dec 2013 must be purely academic at this point anyway. The ICWC ITT states the franchise winner will be required to keep the current timetable until Dec 2013 when they can implement changes. As the winner of the franchise won't even be announced until the Summer, what LM want to do is fairly irrelevant at the moment as any timetable changes will need to be compatible with those.
 
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