Class 175 future

[ValleyLines142]

Yes, I'd just got off the EGW HST from Neath.

I'd left on the train in my signature on my last post!

 

[Philip]

I remember reading about Northern and Arriva doing a deal to split the Manchester-Llandudno with Man-CTR going to Northern and the 'Welsh bit' going to Arriva. However, this fell through because Northern couldn't afford the leasing costs of 175s... Thus I'd be surprised if they went to Northern now. What's more they're only cleared on a limited area of the N0rthern network.

Class 185s are definitely overcrowded that's a no-brainer but, peak services aside, I can't see what the problem is with 175s; at least not in the Manchester are anyway. Even on a 2-car unit during the day the train is hardly bursting on either route, yes they get crowded in the peak time but then so do all trains serving big cities. I was on the 16:30 Milford Haven service from Manchester today which was formed of 2 carriages (booked a 3-car unit). It was standing room only but we weren't squashed in one bit, unlike what used to happen when a 175/0 turned up in place of a booked 175/1 on a peak time TPE service on the Manchester-Preston corridor in 2006.

 

[northwichcat]

I remember reading about Northern and Arriva doing a deal to split the Manchester-Llandudno with Man-CTR going to Northern and the 'Welsh bit' going to Arriva. However, this fell through because Northern couldn't afford the leasing costs of 175s...

Until the very last day of the FNW franchise there were FNW 150s running some Manchester-Warrington-Chester services (not ones which continued to Llandudno) operated by FNW crews and also some 158 and 175 operated services on Manchester-Altrincham-Chester operated by ATW crews. Some of the Crewe-Chester shuttles also continued to be operated by FNW 142/150s and FNW crews.

No agreement could be reached between Northern and ATW for using each others trains so that ceased to continue.

Thus I'd be surprised if they went to Northern now. What's more they're only cleared on a limited area of the N0rthern network.

And they are only cleared for four ATW routes. If Llandudno-Manchester is extended to Leeds then either the 175s will have to be cleared east of Manchester or they will need to be transferred to new route(s). They face a better chance of being cleared for Wigan-Southport (Wigan to Manchester Airport is cleared) than for Aberystwyth or the HOW line.

The 175s have much better leasing costs than the 180s and if even Secro/Abeillo can be persuaded to take on 180s, if it's a choice between 180s and nothing then I don't think anything can be ruled out.

 

[tbtc]

I can't see what the problem is with 175s

For me, the problem is that they are a small "non standard" class (no corridor connections etc) and ATW would find things easier with a larger amount of 158s (which can work with 153 too), if there was an other "natural" home for the 175s.

The 175s are okay where they are, but electrification of other routes may see some "spare" 158s elsewhere.

 

[Greenback]

The 175's themselves aren't a problem, but the lack of capacity and flexibility that they provide is. I think they are great, and I love travelling on them, but we either need more of them (which won't be possible) or we need other types of untis that can be coupeld together with corridor connections!

Or, even better, a huge brand new fleet of trains!

 

[PHILIPE]

Are ATW running 158s to Ebbw Vale at the moment, I'm sure one came in to Cardiff Central from there today. Anyway, ATW probably need more 158s irrespective of other stock in order to double Cambrian services.

They may turn up very occasionally but not diagrammed. 175s and Pacers also and a 153 + 150 combination on a Saturday

 

[northwichcat]

The 175's themselves aren't a problem, but the lack of capacity and flexibility that they provide is. I think they are great, and I love travelling on them, but we either need more of them (which won't be possible) or we need other types of untis that can be coupeld together with corridor connections!

Or, even better, a huge brand new fleet of trains!

Pleased to see it's not just me with that opinion.

I think a lot of posters aren't in agreement with that simply because they like the 175s and if they get new or cascaded stock to replace the 175s they may well have disadvantages over 175s. The 185s, for instance, have disadvantages over the 175s.

Having travelled on a Renfe MD 599 last year it had a feel of being an upgraded 175, despite not going that a strong impression of that from photos. It doesn't have corridor connections but I'm sure something either a 4 car version of it could be built for the UK network or a modified design of 2/3 cars with corridor connectors. What's really surprising about these trains is how quiet they are for diesels considering they accelerate well (they even have displays showing you how fast the train is travelling at.)

 

[jones_bangor]

I think a lot of posters aren't in agreement with that simply because they like the 175s and if they get new or cascaded stock to replace the 175s they may well have disadvantages over 175s. The 185s, for instance, have disadvantages over the 175s.

Doors in the middle of the carriage are terrible on a cold, windy winters day. The
wind just rips through the carriage.

 

[Greenback]

Pleased to see it's not just me with that opinion.

I think a lot of posters aren't in agreement with that simply because they like the 175s and if they get new or cascaded stock to replace the 175s they may well have disadvantages over 175s. The 185s, for instance, have disadvantages over the 175s.

I can see the sense in replacing the 175's with another, larger fleet of untis that have corridor connections. I love the trains myself, but I accept that mroe capacity is needed. It wasn't pleasant tonight being one of 9 in the vestibule on a packed 175 tonight, so despite the pleasant seats and interior of the units, I'd rather sit on a longer train made up of other stock! mind you, I'm not at all keen on the 185's...!

 

[jones_bangor]

I can see the sense in replacing the 175's with another, larger fleet of untis that have corridor connections. I love the trains myself, but I accept that mroe capacity is needed. It wasn't pleasant tonight being one of 9 in the vestibule on a packed 175 tonight, so despite the pleasant seats and interior of the units, I'd rather sit on a longer train made up of other stock! mind you, I'm not at all keen on the 185's...!

Arriva could double up 2-car 175 units to form 4 cars.

After all, XC do this with Voyagers!!

And a few cascaded 158s could fill the gaps...

 

[First class]

HOW is only cleared for Sprinters. 175s are more difficult to clear than 158s as FNW found out when they originally received them.

Hi, not sure if already mentioned, but 175s have worked the HOW line previously (definitely cleared and 2011 did still see some rare 175 workings).

In this picture, 2 Class 175s pass each other at Llandrindod in 2007.

 

[anthony263]

The 175's themselves aren't a problem, but the lack of capacity and flexibility that they provide is. I think they are great, and I love travelling on them, but we either need more of them (which won't be possible) or we need other types of untis that can be coupeld together with corridor connections!

Or, even better, a huge brand new fleet of trains!

I share your opinion on this. I actually love traveling on the 175's.

I wasn't too pleased when ATW replaced the 06:52 Cardiff - Carmarthen swanline service which was nearly always a class 175 with a 06:42 Cardiff - Pembroke Dock/Fishguard service a few years ago which is now always a class 150 & 153.

I noticed yesterday ATW had at least 3 class 158's operating on the Maesteg - Cheltenham Route, I deally this route should be operated by class 150's or have the Ebbw Vale trains extended to Maesteg with the Cheltenham service being cut back to Cardiff and run hourly instead of having a few 2 hour gaps.

I heared the class 175's were cleared to carry passengers on the heart of wales line but not the class 158's. I would like to hope in the future that were could see a Swansea - Crewe service via the heart of wales line using the 2 carriage class 175's.

Slightly off topic but is isn't just ATW who use inapropiate stock on certain routes I had a class 158 yesterday to Severn Beach which I did enjoy.

 

[northwichcat]

Hi, not sure if already mentioned, but 175s have worked the HOW line previously (definitely cleared and 2011 did still see some rare 175 workings).

In this picture, 2 Class 175s pass each other at Llandrindod in 2007.

OK I wasn't aware they had clearance. They don't actually need clearance to run on a line on a rare basis, such as during engineering works or for a special working, as long as they aren't banned (like Pacers at Buxton) and stay under 50mph (I think.) Some locos that aren't cleared for the HOW have been allowed to run over the line for excursion trains, subject to the necessary paperwork being filled out prior to the journey being made.

I think FNW may requested slight modifications to the 175s at some stage. I think originally they couldn't stop at most curved platforms but a modification to the steps was much simpler than rebuilding platforms or limiting their availability further.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Slightly off topic but is isn't just ATW who use inapropiate stock on certain routes I had a class 158 yesterday to Severn Beach which I did enjoy.

With all stock being different sizes sometimes what seems like an inappropriate choice from one point of view seems an appropriate choice from another point of view.

For instance, you have a Pacer with 110 seats and a Sprinter with 140 seats and the following two services to run:

Service A: 90 minute duration, 6 stops, highest loading expected 80 passengers.
Service B: 30 minute duration, 6 stops, highest loading expected 145 passengers.

Which train do you use on which service?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Arriva could double up 2-car 175 units to form 4 cars.

After all, XC do this with Voyagers!!

And a few cascaded 158s could fill the gaps...

XC can also have guards/TMs and catering trolleys in both portions when they do that. It's a lot more viable to have 2 guards/TMs and 2 catering trolleys for 8-10 carriages then it is for 4 carriages.

 

[Greenback]

Arriva could double up 2-car 175 units to form 4 cars.

After all, XC do this with Voyagers!!

XC can also have guards/TMs and catering trolleys in both portions when they do that. It's a lot more viable to have 2 guards/TMs and 2 catering trolleys for 8-10 carriages then it is for 4 carriages.

Indeed, I was about to say the same thing! It makes absolutely no economic sense for any TOC to employ two people to check tickets in four carriages. ATW simply would not do it!

 

[ValleyLines142]

I share your opinion on this. I actually love traveling on the 175's.

I wasn't too pleased when ATW replaced the 06:52 Cardiff - Carmarthen swanline service which was nearly always a class 175 with a 06:42 Cardiff - Pembroke Dock/Fishguard service a few years ago which is now always a class 150 & 153.

I noticed yesterday ATW had at least 3 class 158's operating on the Maesteg - Cheltenham Route, I deally this route should be operated by class 150's or have the Ebbw Vale trains extended to Maesteg with the Cheltenham service being cut back to Cardiff and run hourly instead of having a few 2 hour gaps.

I heared the class 175's were cleared to carry passengers on the heart of wales line but not the class 158's. I would like to hope in the future that were could see a Swansea - Crewe service via the heart of wales line using the 2 carriage class 175's.

Slightly off topic but is isn't just ATW who use inapropiate stock on certain routes I had a class 158 yesterday to Severn Beach which I did enjoy.

Slightly off topic but I find it ridiculous how there's no trains from Cardiff to Swansea between 0642 and 0758. There should be a Swansea service at around 0715ish operated by a 3-car 175.

 

[anthony263]

Slightly off topic but I find it ridiculous how there's no trains from Cardiff to Swansea between 0642 and 0758. There should be a Swansea service at around 0715ish operated by a 3-car 175.

Yes I agree and there are many who also share your views you can see that with teh many people who travel on First cumru's 07:20 Bridgend - Swansea service X1 bus especially between Port Talbot & Swansea where it arrives at 08:25.

I know a few people who use that bus because there is no train which arrives into Swansea around 08:30 only trains which arrive either at 07:45 or 08:50.

Ideally I would like to see FGW's 05:27 London Paddington - Swansea service run direct via Bristol Parkway instead of going via Bath & Bristol TM as this could cut at least 25 minutes off its journey time and offer an arrival into Swansea just before 08:30.

The 07:55 ATW service from Cardiff to Milford Haven could also have enough timt to serve a few of the Swanline stations, namley Pyle & Llansamlet

 

[RobShipway]

Getting back on topic, but it could be worse for you if the class 165/166's where moved to ATW after the Great Western line has been electrified and given it's new electric rolling stock.

Personally, having travelled in the past from Llandudno Junction to Manchester I found the class 175's to be excellent trains, however I can see the need for some DMU trains within the ATW fleet being replaced with either two or three car class 172's possibly, such as the services between Cardiff and Cheltenham.

I agree that there should be more services that go through Bristol Parkway as well, especially from London Paddington that can give an arrival time into Swansea before 9am, but I do not see it happening unless a path can be found and even then it may just be a Class 165/166 if they are passed for the route doing the service.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Getting back on topic, but it could be worse for you if the class 165/166's where moved to ATW after the Great Western line has been electrified and given it's new electric rolling stock.

Personally, having travelled in the past from Llandudno Junction to Manchester I found the class 175's to be excellent trains, however I can see the need for some DMU trains within the ATW fleet being replaced with either two or three car class 172's possibly, such as the services between Cardiff and Cheltenham.

I agree that there should be more services that go through Bristol Parkway as well, especially from London Paddington that can give an arrival time into Swansea before 9am, but I don ot see it happening unless a path can be found and even then it may just be a Class 165/166 if they are passed for the route doing the service.

That's not a bad shout actually, its a shame more 175 carriages can't be ordered. Maybe 172's could be ordered for Arriva or even Voyagers

What about electrification of the Welsh Marches Line, or shall we keep dreaming? :P

 

[tbtc]

What about electrification of the Welsh Marches Line, or shall we keep dreaming? :P

The "rule of thumb" that people use to justify electrification is a half hourly service. Clearly this isn't scientific, as there are some routes with that (or better) which don't have electrification (yet) and some routes with less which do. But take that as a starting point.

Now, if you look at the Marches line then it's almost at that point. However, you'd need to alter the services to get them to "fit" (e.g. run more Manchester - Cardiff services, at the expense of others).

If you incorporate the Shrewsbury - Crewe "local" service (so that some longer distance trains stopped at Wem etc), and maybe a (Northern Rail) "local" service from Crewe to Manchester (maybe the one via Manchester Airport?) then maybe there's scope for a half hourly Cardiff - Manchester service...

...but the price for that might be running:

• Birmingham - Shrewsbury - Cambrian (hourly, though not necessarily hourly to both Aberystwyth & Pwllheli)
• Birmingham - Shrewsbury - Wrexham - Chester - Holyhead (hourly - replacing the current LM Birmingham - Shrewsbury service)
• Cutting the Cardiff - Holyhead route (maybe back to the one train a day it had under Wales & West)?

I suspect people's reaction to that will depend on whether they are on the "core" Cardiff - Manchester route, or one of the ones which would remain unelectrified...

 

[Greenback]

The "rule of thumb" that people use to justify electrification is a half hourly service. Clearly this isn't scientific, as there are some routes with that (or better) which don't have electrification (yet) and some routes with less which do. But take that as a starting point.

Now, if you look at the Marches line then it's almost at that point. However, you'd need to alter the services to get them to "fit" (e.g. run more Manchester - Cardiff services, at the expense of others).

If you incorporate the Shrewsbury - Crewe "local" service (so that some longer distance trains stopped at Wem etc), and maybe a (Northern Rail) "local" service from Crewe to Manchester (maybe the one via Manchester Airport?) then maybe there's scope for a half hourly Cardiff - Manchester service...

...but the price for that might be running:

• Birmingham - Shrewsbury - Cambrian (hourly, though not necessarily hourly to both Aberystwyth & Pwllheli)
• Birmingham - Shrewsbury - Wrexham - Chester - Holyhead (hourly - replacing the current LM Birmingham - Shrewsbury service)
• Cutting the Cardiff - Holyhead route (maybe back to the one train a day it had under Wales & West)?

I suspect people's reaction to that will depend on whether they are on the "core" Cardiff - Manchester route, or one of the ones which would remain unelectrified...

Would there be any merit in having an hourly express service from Cardiff - Manchester, and local stopping services Cardiff - Shrewsbury and Shrewsbury - Manchester?

The fast traisn would call only at Abergavenny, Hereford, Ldlow OR Leominster, Shrewsbury, Crewe and Stockport.

It might be possible to fit a couple of through Holyhead trains into the timetable as well.

 

[tbtc]

Would there be any merit in having an hourly express service from Cardiff - Manchester, and local stopping services Cardiff - Shrewsbury and Shrewsbury - Manchester?

The fast traisn would call only at Abergavenny, Hereford, Ldlow OR Leominster, Shrewsbury, Crewe and Stockport.

It might be possible to fit a couple of through Holyhead trains into the timetable as well.

There may be - I don't know whether to go for a half hourly service (with "local" stations maybe getting a "skip stop" pattern), or what you suggested.

Getting into the realms of complete fantasy (even more so), what about (post TPE electrification) a through EMU from Newcastle - Leeds - Manchester - (Manchester Airport?) - Crewe - Shrewsbury - Hereford - Abergavenny - Cardiff/Bristol? No reason for every long distance service to go through Birmingham.

 

[150222]

Getting back on topic, but it could be worse for you if the class 165/166's where moved to ATW after the Great Western line has been electrified and given it's new electric rolling stock.

Personally, having travelled in the past from Llandudno Junction to Manchester I found the class 175's to be excellent trains, however I can see the need for some DMU trains within the ATW fleet being replaced with either two or three car class 172's possibly, such as the services between Cardiff and Cheltenham.

I agree that there should be more services that go through Bristol Parkway as well, especially from London Paddington that can give an arrival time into Swansea before 9am, but I don ot see it happening unless a path can be found and even then it may just be a Class 165/166 if they are passed for the route doing the service.

Why on earth would FGW use 90 MPH class 165's on Paddington to Swansea services? I think they are unsuitible for Oxford fasts. Never mind Swansea's.

 

[route:oxford]

Would the 175s be any good for the WHL & Kyle/Far North Line?

From memory, they have pretty good panoramic windows.

 

[tbtc]

Would the 175s be any good for the WHL & Kyle/Far North Line?

From memory, they have pretty good panoramic windows.

Pacers have good panoramic windows. Also, Pacers are more suited to the line speeds on the Far North/ Kyle, rather than 100mph stock.

 

[Greenback]

There may be - I don't know whether to go for a half hourly service (with "local" stations maybe getting a "skip stop" pattern), or what you suggested.

I prefer a regular timetable pattern to skip stopping, though each option has advantages and disadvantages.

Getting into the realms of complete fantasy (even more so), what about (post TPE electrification) a through EMU from Newcastle - Leeds - Manchester - (Manchester Airport?) - Crewe - Shrewsbury - Hereford - Abergavenny - Cardiff/Bristol? No reason for every long distance service to go through Birmingham.

There is no reason really, apart maybe from Birmingham being an atrractive market and revenue earner in itself.

BR used to run long distance services through the Marches way back when before sectorisation. And there was the shortlived ORCATS raid services.

 

[Big Chris]

Would it be advantageous to reform the 175s into 2 coach and four coach trains and aim to double up on busier sections 2x2 carriage and have the potential of 2, 4 or 6 carriage trains splitting at cardiff, ie have a four coach train on manchester to milford made of 2x2 or even 4+2 splitting at Cardiff to reinforce the core of the route between Manchester and Cardiff. Also on Manchester to Llandudno you could then have a steady 4 coaches all day. With 158s moved from Scot Rail after electrification to cover the Holyhead to Cardiff route with joining and splitting as needed.

 

[tbtc]

There is no reason really, apart maybe from Birmingham being an atrractive market and revenue earner in itself.

BR used to run long distance services through the Marches way back when before sectorisation. And there was the shortlived ORCATS raid services.

Birmingham will always be a big market, but there's surely scope for other TOCs to offer long distance services, rather than forcing them onto XC trains through New Street.

Would it be advantageous to reform the 175s into 2 coach and four coach trains and aim to double up on busier sections 2x2 carriage and have the potential of 2, 4 or 6 carriage trains splitting at cardiff, ie have a four coach train on manchester to milford made of 2x2 or even 4+2 splitting at Cardiff to reinforce the core of the route between Manchester and Cardiff. Also on Manchester to Llandudno you could then have a steady 4 coaches all day. With 158s moved from Scot Rail after electrification to cover the Holyhead to Cardiff route with joining and splitting as needed.

Its the lack of corridor connections that is the problem.

With 158s you could do this much easier (like the hourly four coach Liverpool - Nottingham service, where only two coaches continue to Norwich, or the existing splitting on the Cambrian services inc at Shrewsbury).

This is why I've suggested that more 158s would be more use to ATW, because a few of their routes have busier sections (like the Cambrian trips east of Shrewsbury, or the Milford Haven - Manchester service beyond Swansea/Cardiff)

 

[RobShipway]

Why on earth would FGW use 90 MPH class 165's on Paddington to Swansea services? I think they are unsuitible for Oxford fasts. Never mind Swansea's.

The class 166's are rated for 100mph, but again you could argue the same with using Class 158's and class 175's which only do uo to 100mph running on the West coast line down to Birmingham.

It was also a comment to get talking started agaon on this thread, although I actually prefer the idea of ATW using a train like the Voyager/Meridian, that way if ever the North Wales line or the Welsh Marches ut that is wishful dreamy thinking on mine and many others part I think. Unless Bombardier could do a version of Class 172 that is diesel/electric of course?

 

[Batman]

I don't think there is a need to electrify the Welsh Marches line anytime soon. But there is potential for the line to be viewed as a secondary cross country, rathern than a regional route.

 

[150222]

The class 166's are rated for 100mph, but again you could argue the same with using Class 158's and class 175's which only do uo to 100mph running on the West coast line down to Birmingham.

It was also a comment to get talking started agaon on this thread, although I actually prefer the idea of ATW using a train like the Voyager/Meridian, that way if ever the North Wales line or the Welsh Marches ut that is wishful dreamy thinking on mine and many others part I think. Unless Bombardier could do a version of Class 172 that is diesel/electric of course?

Ok fair enough however I still don't think turbo's are suitible even if they could be cleared. Anyway there just aren't enough of them.