Class 175 future

[ValleyLines142]

I'm aware of the fact that they're hybrids. I don't think 175s need to go to Northern, they have busy services along a vast area of land from Staffordshire to Tyne & Wear and from Lincolnshire to Cumbria, including Yorkshire, Cheshire and Greater Manchester. 158s have corridor connections which makes things easier.

You're not getting your mitts on our 175s! They are fine as they are.

 

[sprinterguy]

Not actually sure they're cleared into Birmingham?

They have been in the past, via the tunnels that the ATW services to Birmingham International would make use of. Many of the 180s were stored at Oxley for a while after going off lease from FGW, and I've seen one of them pass through New Street station northbound towards Wolverhampton.

 

[ValleyLines142]

They have been in the past, via the tunnels that the ATW services to Birmingham International would make use of. Many of the 180s were stored at Oxley for a while after going off lease from FGW, and I've seen one of them pass through New Street station northbound towards Wolverhampton.

Yes, a few 175s used to stroll onto services out of New Street. I think 1D19 may be booked for a 175?

 

[jones_bangor]

They have been in the past, via the tunnels that the ATW services to Birmingham International would make use of. Many of the 180s were stored at Oxley for a while after going off lease from FGW, and I've seen one of them pass through New Street station northbound towards Wolverhampton.

Well the 180s may well become available via IEP.

 

[PHILIPE]

Leave the 175s where they are and where they are convenient for their purpose built Alstom Depot at Chester. All this discussion is pie in the sky and based on ifs and buts regarding future stock being available. The Cambrian needs to be 2 Coach 158s which are already ERTMS fitted in order to split/attach at Machynlleth with the Aberystwyth portions. People are for ever suggesting TOCs order or buy new stock but procurement is the sole prerogative of DaFT

 

[jonesy3001]

Tpe should of kept the 175s for Barrow/Windermere and blackpool services and used the 185s on the scottish and yorkshire routes.

 

[150222]

Tpe should of kept the 175s for Barrow/Windermere and blackpool services and used the 185s on the scottish and yorkshire routes.

Again it all came down to the dft's decision. They were originally to replace FNW's slam door fleet. The DFT (pursuaded by the WAG) then gave them to ATW as extra capacity with a small number being sub-leased to FTPE. Then when the 185's came they were all given to ATW. If the D(A)FT had decided to keep 175's on TPE NW then they would have had less 185's in return and caused capacity problems. The only solutions to this mess are:
*To electrify Uckfield & Marshlink and cascade 171's or...
*My earlier suggestion of ordering more 172's for LM and cascading 170's.
Everything since privatisation has been a complete c*** up! The DFT need to get their s*****g act together!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

If there was a free hand to re-allocate the 175s, what about basing them at Carlisle to cover Leeds - Carlisle - Glasgow via Dumfries ( as a through service ) with the 3 car fleet and use the 2 car fleet on Lancaster - Carlisle via the coast and Carlisle - Newcastle?

The fleet size should fit very nicely and the capacity would pretty much match the demand, plus the windows are a good size and with a good seat / window match for such scenic routes...

 

[HSTEd]

Since there are more regional operations that we can think of suitable for two carriage operations than three car operations, and that we can think of operations suitable for longer trains (such as 4 carriages).

Can't we take out the centre vehicle from all the 3 carriage 175s and use them to make up 4 carriage 175s and leave the remainder of the fleet as 2 carriage units.
This would leave you with 8 4-carriage and 19 2-carriage units.

 

[IanXC]

In an ideal world, order a new set of DMU's (4-car minimum) for the Cardiff Central to Manchester Piccadilly / Holyhead, Llandudno to Manchester Piccadilly and Birmingham International to Holyhead routes,

Or... transfer Cardiff-Manchester to the CrossCountry franchise and use 4 car Voyagers on the route. This would either be post electrification of Wakefield-Birmingham or after XC receive new stock for their core, passing the 5 car Voyagers to the current Manchester routes.

One thing that struck me with Borderlands electrification plan, where do you get the stock to run it from?

The current service needs 2 X 150s to run, so where do the 2 X 507/8s come from?

I would have thought at least 2 508s could be cobbled together from the 15 in storage.

 

[Tomonthetrain]

What about taking a 180 centre car and bunging it in the middle of a 175/0 to make it 3 car?

 

[Pacerpilot]

What about taking a 180 centre car and bunging it in the middle of a 175/0 to make it 3 car?

Different engines, different transmission

 

[anthony263]

What about taking a 180 centre car and bunging it in the middle of a 175/0 to make it 3 car?

Good idea in theory but the engines etc are different as I was told when I asked a similar question before and as another user above has stated.

 

[northwichcat]

Ah I get you. Still, I don't think 175s need to go to Northern, they've got enough on the go with every Sprinter/Pacer from under the sun.

No you still don't get me.

ATW would give up their 175s. They would get 70x158 carriages as replacement. The 175s would then be needed to replace those 70x158 carriages. ATW would additionally get extra 158s released by Scotrail for the extra capacity. In my opinion the 158s would be better suited because of the corridor connectors and more 158s means longer trains on ATW long distance services.

If the new order were to go ahead it would allow the worst of the 142s to be withdrawn.

And relating to your comments about Northern you do realise that passenger growth should have meant Northern getting 182 additional carriages by the end of this year. They have received 60 with no real prospect of any more before the next franchise when electrification schemes are implemented.

3-car 175's would go on the busiest routes - e.g. Heart of Wales Line (3-car)

HOW is only cleared for Sprinters. 175s are more difficult to clear than 158s as FNW found out when they originally received them.

 

[tbtc]

Like class 185 operated journeys many 175 operated journeys seem to be falling in to the same trap of the units being too small in single formation and not enough to run them all doubled up and even if they were doubled up they don't have corridor connectors which creates problems for the refreshments trolley.

What solutions are there?

That's a good question. Whilst they are nice units, there aren't a lot of lines where their 100mph speed is needed but a two/three coach unit isn't too short.

There aren't really enough of them to make much difference at most TOCs, though the "Carlisle" solution further down is one I may try to do the "back of an envelope" maths on...

If we got rid of our 175s, the whole Arriva fleet would be Sprinter/Pacer worked (except for 158s)

...apart from the flagship WAG Express of course

If anything, it's the Valley Lines that need sorting out!

Agreed

Better idea would be transfer the even more temperamental 180s to Chester for some TLC and use them on North Wales - Manchester / Birmingham (via WCML) and a revised Swansea - Manchester service.

125 mph units on services that a 75mph 150 can keep time on?

(althogh the 180s obviously can't do the full 125 on the WCML)

Not actually sure they're cleared into Birmingham?

This is always given as the reason why they cannot work on XC (where the 125mph five coach trains would be very useful...)

One thing that struck me with Borderlands electrification plan, where do you get the stock to run it from?

The current service needs 2 X 150s to run, so where do the 2 X 507/8s come from?

I would have thought at least 2 508s could be cobbled together from the 15 in storage.

Yup.

Or a larger order when the 507/508s are replaced in a few years time? (which may also cover Merseyrail electrification extensions to Preston etc - though this is obviously highly speculative)

That would be reasonable, as journey times on that route aren't too long. It's ridiculous how Arriva run a Manchester to CARMARTHEN (!) service using a 158!:

What (of currently available stock, and not a "fantasy" answer) would be more suitable? The services aren't timed to run at high speeds, there are very few people using the service all that way from Manchester to Carmarthen...

However, why should the Welsh be lumped with shoddy old stock from Scotland? Why can't we have some NICE trains? What about the North-South divide!? Those Southerners get all the nice new trains!

Yup, those evil southern Scots (who will have a few EMUs that will release some 158s in a few years time)...

If there was a free hand to re-allocate the 175s, what about basing them at Carlisle to cover Leeds - Carlisle - Glasgow via Dumfries ( as a through service ) with the 3 car fleet and use the 2 car fleet on Lancaster - Carlisle via the coast and Carlisle - Newcastle?

The fleet size should fit very nicely and the capacity would pretty much match the demand, plus the windows are a good size and with a good seat / window match for such scenic routes...

Northern's "northern" operations (e.g. Newcastle, Carlisle) are pretty much a seperate TOC with very little interaction with the main Lancashire/Yorkshire area (the only direct Northern connection being the bi-hourly Settle & Carlisle service to Leeds and the bi-hourly Cumbrian Coast services to Lancaster).

How many 175s would it take to run:

• Carlisle - Newcastle (hourly)
• Hexham - Middlesbrough (hourly)
• Carlisle - Leeds (bi-hourly)
• Carlisle - Kilmarnock - Glasgow (bi-hourly take over of the current FSR service, post electrification of Killie - Glasgow)
• Whitby - Middlesbrough (irregular)

(etc)

(with Pacers remaining on the Saltburn/ Morpeth etc services in the short term)

Not ideal, but it would keep the class together and a two/three coach train would cope okay* on most journeys

(* - obviously anyone local to a line will state a time when the service is "overcrowded" at some times, but the 175s may work out okay in terms of capacity, with the three coach ones scheduled through Newcastle at rush hour)

 

[northwichcat]

That's a good question. Whilst they are nice units, there aren't a lot of lines where their 100mph speed is needed but a two/three coach unit isn't too short

I wasn't trying to imply they can't run in double formation. More that for long distance services it's not ideal but less of an issue on commuter services.

 

[ValleyLines142]

No you still don't get me.

ATW would give up their 175s. They would get 70x158 carriages as replacement. The 175s would then be needed to replace those 70x158 carriages. ATW would additionally get extra 158s released by Scotrail for the extra capacity. In my opinion the 158s would be better suited because of the corridor connectors and more 158s means longer trains on ATW long distance services.

If the new order were to go ahead it would allow the worst of the 142s to be withdrawn.

And relating to your comments about Northern you do realise that passenger growth should have meant Northern getting 182 additional carriages by the end of this year. They have received 60 with no real prospect of any more before the next franchise when electrification schemes are implemented.

I get you vaguely, but I think we'll keep our 175s Northern can have our Pacers if they like!

The 158s shouldn't be used on the Cardiff to Manchester service, possibly on Llandudno services though. 175s are more appropriate. There haven't been too many problems.

 

[northwichcat]

I get you vaguely, but I think we'll keep our 175s

They actually belong to the North West - they were ordered for the North West franchise and are based at a purpose built depot at Chester, in the North West. The WAG invaded Chester station and it's depot and put it in the 'unified Welsh franchise' despite the fact the law banning Welsh people from Chester between sunset and sunrise was never overturned.

Northern can have our Pacers if they like!

Remember you got Pacers because of the huge amounts of money the Valley Lines franchise was losing - they needed cheaper options to Sprinters and fast.

 

[ValleyLines142]

They actually belong to the North West - they were ordered for the North West franchise and are based at a purpose built depot at Chester, in the North West. The WAG invaded Chester station and it's depot and put it in the 'unified Welsh franchise' despite the fact the law banning Welsh people from Chester between sunset and sunrise was never overturned.

Several of the 175s stay at Cardiff too I think 3-car 175s should be for Cardiff-Manchester, 2-car 175s for Cardiff-Milford Haven (with some being doubled) and 158s for Llandudno-Manchester.

 

[northwichcat]

Several of the 175s stay at Cardiff too I think 3-car 175s should be for Cardiff-Manchester, 2-car 175s for Cardiff-Milford Haven (with some being doubled) and 158s for Llandudno-Manchester.

Chester is where they are maintained by a specialist team, with them they would be as unreliable as the 180s.

I take it you mean 4 car 158s for Llandudno-Manchester, at least East of Chester, considering many of the 3 car 175s on that route are full, which would mean a capacity cut for other ATW services.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Chester is where they are maintained by a specialist team, with them they would be as unreliable as the 180s.

I take it you mean 4 car 158s for Llandudno-Manchester, at least East of Chester, considering many of the 3 car 175s on that route are full, which would mean a capacity cut for other ATW services.

Yes. 4-car 158s for Llandudno services.

 

[PHILIPE]

It is very difficult to speculate and suggest when everything is micromanaged by DaFT. For reasons already stated, 175s must stay on current routes with ATW and 158s must stay likewise, i.e. Cambrian. If wishes were horses, beggars would ride !!! Impossible to prejudge anything until the first stage of any developments have occurred,

 

[tbtc]

I wasn't trying to imply they can't run in double formation. More that for long distance services it's not ideal but less of an issue on commuter services.

Yeah, I appreciate what you are saying - ideally I wouldn't want to use non-corridor-connected stock in doubled up formations though

 

[HSTEd]

What about 180s, aren't there some stored or there soon will be if North TPE electrification does include Hull?

They might be speedwise overkill but they are probably more suited to 100mph regional express work than to 75mph commuter work.

 

[sprinterguy]

What about 180s, aren't there some stored or there soon will be if North TPE electrification does include Hull?

They might be speedwise overkill but they are probably more suited to 100mph regional express work than to 75mph commuter work.

Five of the fourteen 180s are currently off lease, pending a re-introduction into service with FGW when all fourteen of the class will once again be in service.

There are likely to be 180s available for other uses if North TPE electrification goes to Hull and if Hull Trains can source suitable replacement electric trains. So some pretty big "ifs" at the moment.

 

[ValleyLines142]

I'm still trying to picture a 158 on Cardiff-Manchester's instead of a 175. Ewwwww. Don't get me wrong, the refurbed 158s are lovely, just not for a near 4 hour journey. It's unfortunate that they are the only stock suitable on the Cambrian Line. I love the 175s, they are so comfortable and very quiet and sophisticated, and I highly doubt they'll be transferred. I think the 158s would be good on West Wales services and Valley Lines, but they are only cleared as far as Radyr and Penarth I believe.

 

[sprinterguy]

I'm still trying to picture a 158 on Cardiff-Manchester's instead of a 175. Ewwwww. Don't get me wrong, the refurbed 158s are lovely, just not for a near 4 hour journey. It's unfortunate that they are the only stock suitable on the Cambrian Line. I love the 175s, they are so comfortable and very quiet and sophisticated, and I highly doubt they'll be transferred. I think the 158s would be good on West Wales services and Valley Lines, but they are only cleared as far as Radyr and Penarth I believe.

I wouldn't want to see 158s on the Valley Lines, station dwell times would be impacted on due to the narrow doors at the vehicle ends, and acceleration away from stations would be slow, as they aren't geared for short hops. I know Pacers aren't exactly nippy when they're heavily loaded, but they're better suited to reasonably short distance stop-start types of journies. Of course, I'd rather see something other than Pacers on the Valley Lines (I've been fortunate in that all my experiences of the Valley Lines have been of 150s), but I've got my fingers crossed that that will come in the form of electrification.

I also think that a lot of passengers would prefer four carriage trains formed of refurbished 158s (The unrefurbished ones are pretty rough) over three carriage, or even two carriage, 175s on Cardiff to Manchester services. I would; I don't use the Manchester to Cardiff services often myself admittedly, I more frequently use the Birmingham to Holyhead axis, but extra seats and carriages are to be welcomed. And for the record, I do think that the 175s are very nice trains.

 

[ValleyLines142]

I wouldn't want to see 158s on the Valley Lines, station dwell times would be impacted on due to the narrow doors at the vehicle ends, and acceleration away from stations would be slow, as they aren't geared for short hops. I know Pacers aren't exactly nippy when they're heavily loaded, but they're better suited to reasonably short distance stop-start types of journies.

I also think that a lot of passengers would prefer four carriage trains formed of refurbished 158s over three carriage, or even two carriage, 175s on Cardiff to Manchester services. I would; I don't use the Manchester to Cardiff services often myself admittedly, I more frequently use the Birmingham to Holyhead axis, but extra seats and carriages are to be welcomed. And for the record, I do think that the 175s are very nice trains.

The 158s are being refurbished to a lovely standard, and the stock on the Valley Lines seriously needs to be upgraded, hopefully when electrification arrives it'll be a lot better. The 158s could be used on the Ebbw Vale services maybe, as there are only six stations on that line, and about 30 minutes from Cardiff to Rogerstone (first stop), so a chance for 'faster', if you like, journeys.

I see where you're coming from, but I think if all the 175s were allocated to the Cardiff-Manchester, capacity would increase, and then there's plenty of 158s for North Wales. I really, really wouldn't want to lose 175s. I think the 158s are too firm for a four hour journey if I'm perfectly honest.

 

[jones_bangor]

They actually belong to the North West - they were ordered for the North West franchise and are based at a purpose built depot at Chester, in the North West. The WAG invaded Chester station and it's depot and put it in the 'unified Welsh franchise' despite the fact the law banning Welsh people from Chester between sunset and sunrise was never overturned.

Aren't the resident of Chester allowed to shoot arrows at us after dark..... Better be careful there after dark!

The 175s do still serve the North West on the Manchester and Crewe runs....

 

[PHILIPE]

I'm still trying to picture a 158 on Cardiff-Manchester's instead of a 175. Ewwwww. Don't get me wrong, the refurbed 158s are lovely, just not for a near 4 hour journey. It's unfortunate that they are the only stock suitable on the Cambrian Line. I love the 175s, they are so comfortable and very quiet and sophisticated, and I highly doubt they'll be transferred. I think the 158s would be good on West Wales services and Valley Lines, but they are only cleared as far as Radyr and Penarth I believe.

Also Rhymney and Coryton where they have had diagrammed working in the past. In additional to narrower doorways, they were not liked due to door operation too slow.