FCC/Southern/Southeastern, Franchise Merger

[mister-sparky]

why don't they just merge southeastern, southern and south west and i dunno, call it something like the southern railway. i've heard that before somewhere tho...

 

[tsr]

why don't they just merge southeastern, southern and south west and i dunno, call it something like the southern railway. i've heard that before somewhere tho...

At the moment, I'd like to see FGW/SWT/ATW merge. I think it's pretty unlikely! I also think that a merge of SWT and Southern is pretty unlikely. But there we are.

 

[asylumxl]

Forget Southern Railways, might aswell just go further and merge all the TOCs and call it British Rail .

 

[ert47]

why don't they just merge southeastern, southern and south west and i dunno, call it something like the southern railway. i've heard that before somewhere tho...

How about Network SouthEast?

Bring back the Toothpaste!!
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Really?! I rarely get a train on time, and there's never any staff about...

Does a week actually go past without some kind of problem with the OHLE in the Stevenage area? (eg. lightning strike, power outage, lines coming down, etc.)

 

[Class377/5]

How about Network SouthEast?

Bring back the Toothpaste!!
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Does a week actually go past without some kind of problem with the OHLE in the Stevenage area? (eg. lightning strike, power outage, lines coming down, etc.)

Stevenage isn't normally the problem lately. Between Cambridge and Kings Lynn has seen most of the problems.

 

[Clip]

I think that one way or another, TfL will take over a lot more services coming into London. Even if it's just rumour, speculation or wishful thinking at the moment.

But TFL are heavily in debt right now and do you really think getting into more debt to take on more services(with the promise of shiny new trains & stations) is really the right answer?

id like them to lessen the debt and get themselves in a better standing financially before they ever think about doing anymore then they already are doing.

Ive said it before - TFL/LO are not the answer for any 'Metro' services in and out of london.

 

[tsr]

Forget Southern Railways, might aswell just go further and merge all the TOCs and call it British Rail .

Yes, well, they could always pretend not to bring back BR and then do it gradually anyway by merging some TOCs and merging the resultant super-TOCs! *Evil laugh*

 

[Eagle]

Yes, well, they could always pretend not to bring back BR and then do it gradually anyway by merging some TOCs and merging the resultant super-TOCs! *Evil laugh*

And have a single franchise run by, let's say, Abellio or Arriva (or one of those other international subsidiaries of a state-owned transport company)

 

[Aictos]

And have a single franchise run by, let's say, Abellio or Arriva (or one of those other international subsidiaries of a state-owned transport company)

Indeed, why not just have DB take over all services?

 

[Schnellzug]

SE and Southern seems a sensible idea, and arguably FCC as well (at least the Thameslink part) (wasn't the original idea for combining Great Northern & Thameslink one of the long-ago proposals for some "super Thameslink" plan?), but I don't see much point in including SWT as well, unless it's just that one wants to recreate the Southern Region. (And to be honest, the South Western and Central /South Eastern Divisions were always pretty seperate, weren't they.) Besides, SWT has a completely different fleet, and they run it pretty competently, now at any rate. i don't see that combining it with the others'd bring much in the way of benefits.
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Gawd knows, pledges to install more bloody TVM'S and give the stations a lick of paint I expect!

I have little interest in all of this stuff really, hence my lack of knowledge about the plans here, it all just seems such a ludicrous system. They wonder why it all costs so much and yet we have companies spending millions putting together franchise bids, then millions more when the winner repaints everything and issues thousands of new uniforms etc etc etc.... What a pointless, wasteful, laughable system. Why on earth can the incumbent TOC not simply be given first refusal on any new franchise provided their performance meets targets? Take the WCML. Virgin seem to be doing a decent job, yet they have to jump on the merry go round of putting a new bid together for the service they already operate, and compete against BarbieBus Plc who will presumably then have to surrender Great Western if they win, and so it rumbles on. But the answer to it all is to cut staff of course :roll: :roll: :roll:

This is exactly what I say, but they do not listen. Why not automatically renew the franchise after a fixed term (say, 10 years) as long as they've met the laid-down standards for the last franchise? The system of not taking past peformance into account is absolutely barking, from any perspective other than the Government wanting to give it to whoever puts in the cheapest bid.

And let them choose what rolling stock they want.

 

[David Goddard]

How about Network SouthEast?

Here Here! An ideal solution for a combined Southern/ Southeastern/ Thameslink operation. The current operations are so intertwined it makes sense for these three to be drawn together.
Introduce a standard livery (like they have done in Scotland) and retender every so many years.

SW should not be drawn into such a super TOC, as like Schnellzug says it is largely seperate.
I feel that it should however gain the Reading - Gatwick (and electrify it) and the Cardiff/Bristol - Portsmouth & Weymouth routes from GW.

 

[jon0844]

There needs to be a move to make things more consistent for the passenger, who rarely gets much choice in what train they can use.

Even though you have TUPE, there's still disruption to staff and uncertainty about future job security (everyone knows there are pretty easy ways to get rid of staff who are supposed to be protected!) and it can be disheartening if you were doing a perfectly acceptable job but some huge conglomerate can come along, put in a flash bid with a ridiculously low price (simply to buy into the market) and run at a near loss simply to have a foot in the door. Oh, and quite possibly outsource the work to someone else.

I am not saying this happens in railway bids, but it can and does happen in others. It's worse where companies operate a strict tendering process where it's always the lowest price wins. I presume there are at least some ways to eliminate the cheapest bids on rail tenders, if it's obvious that the company has no idea what it's doing?

 

[tsr]

I feel that it should however gain the Reading - Gatwick (and electrify it)

Don't get me started about that... I don't care which TOC, actually, so long as it's not FGW and so long as they upgrade the line and give some thought as to its future services. I can list a summary of my main ideas here but if you'd rather not, I won't!

 

[starlightEXPRESS]

Don't get me started about that... I don't care which TOC, actually, so long as it's not FGW and so long as they upgrade the line and give some thought as to its future services. I can list a summary of my main ideas here but if you'd rather not, I won't!

We did have a thread on the North Downs Line in late Summer of last year.
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=51113
Without wishing to over-simplify the general 'consensus', I think we 'concluded' that electrification alone was unlikely to bring a huge benefit. (In particular Wokingham-North Camp and Shalford-Reigate resignalling was identified as a priority.) A few posters identified the opportunities for the line provided by the additional platforms being constructed at Reading and Gatwick Airport.)

Regarding the point of the operator (that you mentioned above), I also couldn't care less who operates it, as long as they do a good job.

 

[tsr]

We did have a thread on the North Downs Line in late Summer of last year.
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=51113
Without wishing to over-simplify the general 'consensus', I think we 'concluded' that electrification alone was unlikely to bring a huge benefit. (In particular Wokingham-North Camp and Shalford-Reigate resignalling was identified as a priority.) A few posters identified the opportunities for the line provided by the additional platforms being constructed at Reading and Gatwick Airport.)

Regarding the point of the operator (that you mentioned above), I also couldn't care less who operates it, as long as they do a good job.

Hmmm, I'll have a look at that thread - thanks. We did have a discussion recently, too, which started as a XC/VT to Brighton discussion and then... moved on.

Part of the problem is with paths, I think. Resignalling really needs to be sped up but I can't see that happening.

I've said a South <-> West chord at Redhill, a new station under the A25 between Redhill and Reigate and an extra platform at North Camp as well as the planned one at Reigate would all be good ideas. Ideally there could be a flyover for services going East <-> West at Redhill, too, which would allow Tonbridge services to head West more easily - and this could help start a decent amount of long-distance freight on the route. The new platforms at Reading and Gatwick will start to ease current issues.

If the line is improved significantly, I can see long- or medium-distance services using it again and even a link constructed between Guildford and Reading that would permit a Gatwick <-> Heathrow service.

As for FGW... well... I don't know what proportion of services run with delays for no published reason, but it's a lot, from what the LDBs show me, at least.

 

[Pumbaa]

Intersting note about the 'blind' bids though, I didn't realise that was the case. I'd have thought that the identity of the bidder would actually form a main pillar of the decision making process, but presumably any iffy or unwanted parent companies are screened out beforehand.

That doesn't come into consideration at all.

As I've said, the bids are blind. The DfT will pick for instance "bid C" as being the best, without knowing it's been submitted by First or whomever.

There has been 'past performance' considered before, and was on one of the recent bids. It is suggested that was why the Abellio for GE was leaked early; the last part of the bid consultation was past performance, Abellio were squeaky clean and sailed through without much interrogation.

And if anyone actually believes the bids are really blind, you are either naive or optimistic! The railway industry admits freely it engages in car-park watching, everyone dances round each other and goes for high tea to discuss who gets what benefits if the other party wins. On the same sort of wavelength, Govia knew they hadn't won GE before Abellio knew they'd got it. They hadn't officially been told, nor had DfT officially decided. I'll leave everyone to draw their own conclusions from that.

 

[RobShipway]

I have posted this in a new thread by mistake as I did not see this thread, but I have read in both the latest editions of the Rail Magazine and Modern Railway Magazien that the Government intends to merge the Franchises of Southern, South Eastern and Thameslink.

Is it me or does this seem like the Government wants to either go back to the days of the original BR Southern Railway divison or take it back to being Network South east as someone has mentioned prior to Privitisation?

 

[swt_passenger]

Is it me or does this seem like the Government wants to either go back to the days of the original BR Southern Railway divison or take it back to being Network South east as someone has mentioned prior to Privitisation?

The magazines are wrong, (or you've misread them), they aren't merging Southeastern - they are transfering a few specific routes to Thameslink - which has always been the plan.

Obviously not Southern Region, or they'd not be leaving SWT and SE as separate TOCs.

More obviously not NSE, or they'd have plans to include half of FGW, and most of CH, NXEA, C2C etc etc, and there's no evidence whatsoever for that.

 

[ert47]

The magazines are wrong, (or you've misread them), they aren't merging Southeastern - they are transfering a few specific routes to Thameslink - which has always been the plan.

Obviously not Southern Region, or they'd not be leaving SWT and SE as separate TOCs.

More obviously not NSE, or they'd have plans to include half of FGW, and most of CH, NXEA, C2C etc etc, and there's no evidence whatsoever for that.

I mentioned Network SouthEast earlier as a joke, but would it be more accurate if I had said Network South Central?

 

[Eagle]

I mentioned Network SouthEast earlier as a joke, but would it be more accurate if I had said Network South Central?

Network South Central only covered the same area as the current Southern franchise.

 

[A-driver]

This merger is only due to the Thameslink project and leaves SWT out as that has nothing to do with Thameslink. I don't think it has anything to do with admitting privatisation dosnt work or going back to network SE etc.

This franchise is obviously designed to sort the Thameslink map out without having to cross operators like SET and FCC have had to do at the moment. I would guess that things will change again next franchise once Thameslink has been sorted finally. The logistics of running many southern routes (Horsham, tattenham, grinnie etc) onto FCC routes would be very complicated with 2 TOCs as it would lead to issues with who staff work for, who pays for delays, who's paint is on the trains, who sets fares etc. It would be far easier with one operator at this stage.

 

[ert47]

Network South Central only covered the same area as the current Southern franchise.

aye, but as its effectively the majority of the amalgamated network (although I am quite biased in saying that), so it could just take the name.

Or just be called Great North South Link Railway!

 

[swt_passenger]

But as we were talking about a few weeks back, existing SN routes include stuff like local all stations stoppers between Portsmouth and Littlehampton.

Services like that are going to look a bit odd if "Thameslink" was to come back as the TOC name.

But don't worry, as we write someone is probably beavering away at his desk on the top floor of FCC towers, he'll already know the new name, but he won't be able to tell us what it is yet... :roll:

 

[Class377/5]

Thameslink & South?

No-one knows the franchise name yet.

 

[ert47]

But don't worry, as we write someone is probably beavering away at his desk on the top floor of FCC towers, he'll already know the new name, but he won't be able to tell us what it is yet... :roll:

Whos says First will get it? :P

Although Southern Capital Connect doesn't really sound too good

 

[jon0844]

I think it is to be called "North, North East, South and South East Railway, with another company that runs the fast trains to Gatwick that has nothing to do with us, guv Ltd."

 

[starlightEXPRESS]

I think it is to be called "North, North East, South and South East Railway, with another company that runs the fast trains to Gatwick that has nothing to do with us, guv Ltd."

To accelerate the slide of this thread into complete fantasy can I suggest:

First Meridian Rail Ltd

Just a shame that the new franchise won't serve Greenwich and perhaps it's a little too close to a now defunct ITV franchise, but I think it gets the idea of a north-south line through London linking not only the immediate suburbs, but also the Norfolk and Sussex coasts.

 

[Eagle]

To accelerate the slide of this thread into complete fantasy can I suggest:

First Meridian Rail Ltd

Just a shame that the new franchise won't serve Greenwich and perhaps it's a little too close to a now defunct ITV franchise, but I think it gets the idea of a north-south line through London linking not only the immediate suburbs, but also the Norfolk and Sussex coasts.

I think Meridian is actually a good name, and it's precisely because of ITV Meridian (which isn't defunct by the way); people will associate the name with the region.

(Interesting trivia: Meridian Broadcasting claimed they took their name not from the Prime Meridian, but from the Latin word for southern meridionalis—from which we also get the French term Midi.)

 

[tsr]

How about the Grand Home Counties Central Railway? London & Surroundings Railway Co.?

Oh, but imagine the confusion if it was called First Southern Railway!

 

[Aictos]

Greater Thameslink, Great Northern Southern Railway (GNSR), Great Northern South Central (GNSC) or even as a really simple solution how about Network which pretty much covers every route that will come under the enlarged franchise's control.

Of course, the DfT could be really brave and name the new franchise London & South Eastern and use sub-divisions such as Great Northern, Kent Link, Kent Coast, South London Lines, Sussex Coast and Thameslink.

The incoming franchise would then be managing it's services pretty much like TfL does with the Underground with separate names for the different routes it will manage.

Although I suspect that is the last thing the DfT will do....