FCC/Southern/Southeastern, Franchise Merger

[BestWestern]

Evening All,

Recent whispers have come my way regarding the proposed new 'super franchise' for the southeast, combining FCC, Southern & Southeastern, and the word I heard was that First have been tipped as the likely candidate. This may or may not have some truth in it, I've no idea; does anybody else have any light to shed on this one?

 

[Class377/5]

Evening All,

Recent whispers have come my way regarding the proposed new 'super franchise' for the southeast, combining FCC, Southern & Southeastern, and the word I heard was that First have been tipped as the likely candidate. This may or may not have some truth in it, I've no idea; does anybody else have any light to shed on this one?

It's not including Southeastern. They are staying as is.

The new franchise for Thameslink including all current FCC services will start in October 2013. In July 2015 all of Southern is then included into the new Thameslink franchise in a merger. The Southeastern routes that are due to be taken into Thameslink will then be added into the expanded Thameslink franchise.

This is not whispers, it's fact. DfT have already stated everything I've put about on their website. There was a rumour of a mega TOC but recent events have confirmed a Thameslink take over of Southern but Southeastern are to keep their own services, tho with less services than currently.

No is tipped to get it. Currently bidders are putting together a bid document, First and Go-ahead are current doing this along with a few other groups.

 

[Eagle]

...and the word I heard was that First have been tipped as the likely candidate.

Applications haven't even been submitted yet! Anyway, bids are blind (i.e. the DfT won't know which company has submitted which bid).

First and Govia (the incumbents) are the only companies to state they're running so far.

 

[swt_passenger]

Evening All,

Recent whispers have come my way regarding the proposed new 'super franchise' for the southeast, combining FCC, Southern & Southeastern, and the word I heard was that First have been tipped as the likely candidate. This may or may not have some truth in it, I've no idea; does anybody else have any light to shed on this one?

Total speculation, just like every other time a franchise competition has started, and there isn't even a shortlist announced yet.

 

[BestWestern]

Yup, than ks all that confirmed what I thought, total hollocks as usual! :roll:

Intersting note about the 'blind' bids though, I didn't realise that was the case. I'd have thought that the identity of the bidder would actually form a main pillar of the decision making process, but presumably any iffy or unwanted parent companies are screened out beforehand.

 

[causton]

What do the companies actually put in their bids then?

Surely the details of the train service (the trains, the frequencies, the service patterns to an extent) are given by the DfT and saying much else would give away the company?

 

[Aictos]

I would be interested to see what Govia will bring to the table as opposed to First if Govia got preferred bidder status ahead of First though.

 

[BestWestern]

Gawd knows, pledges to install more bloody TVM'S and give the stations a lick of paint I expect!

I have little interest in all of this stuff really, hence my lack of knowledge about the plans here, it all just seems such a ludicrous system. They wonder why it all costs so much and yet we have companies spending millions putting together franchise bids, then millions more when the winner repaints everything and issues thousands of new uniforms etc etc etc.... What a pointless, wasteful, laughable system. Why on earth can the incumbent TOC not simply be given first refusal on any new franchise provided their performance meets targets? Take the WCML. Virgin seem to be doing a decent job, yet they have to jump on the merry go round of putting a new bid together for the service they already operate, and compete against BarbieBus Plc who will presumably then have to surrender Great Western if they win, and so it rumbles on. But the answer to it all is to cut staff of course :roll: :roll: :roll:

 

[jopsuk]

It's going to be an essentially "consolidation" franchise, ending 2020- at which point things may well be rearranged once more.

 

[Class377/5]

What do the companies actually put in their bids then?

Surely the details of the train service (the trains, the frequencies, the service patterns to an extent) are given by the DfT and saying much else would give away the company?

No-one has put any bids in yet. Only been a week since they announced it. It's autumn this year when they are actually asked to send the bids in with the winner announced in the spring (2013).

It's going to be an essentially "consolidation" franchise, ending 2020- at which point things may well be rearranged once more.

The whole point of this franchise is to see the introduction of the new fleet and the final Thameslink Programme timetable. Give some time to bed down then see if it needs changing.

Yup, than ks all that confirmed what I thought, total hollocks as usual! :roll:

Intersting note about the 'blind' bids though, I didn't realise that was the case. I'd have thought that the identity of the bidder would actually form a main pillar of the decision making process, but presumably any iffy or unwanted parent companies are screened out beforehand.

If they didn't want parent companies they would get screened at an early stage. There's the initial stage where you fill in an application form for what of a better term. Then they get the topped marked to send in their bid. Any company the DfT don't want in can be chucked out at this stage. One of the reasons for this is the DfT like to know you've got the money to do x at that stage.

 

[jon0844]

Why on earth can the incumbent TOC not simply be given first refusal on any new franchise provided their performance meets targets?

Yes, or we just do away with allowing operators to brand anything at all.

Create the franchise (already done), pick the rolling stock (already done), set the timetables (already done) and then find an operator to run the service you've laid down - with a standard livery for that route.

Let the operator wear a standard uniform, but with their logo on the shirt or badge or whatever, and let the operator bung its logo on the side of the train.

Job done.

Network Rail, which owns the stations anyway, can then be responsible for the upkeep of the station (painting etc).

What do the companies actually put in their bids then?

Cash?

 

[Eagle]

What do the companies actually put in their bids then?

Surely the details of the train service (the trains, the frequencies, the service patterns to an extent) are given by the DfT and saying much else would give away the company?

DfT specify the minimum service etc., the company can choose to say they'll provide a higher frequency, or interworked paterns, or investment in newer rolling stock, or refurbished stations, or whatever.

 

[tsr]

Evening All,

Recent whispers have come my way regarding the proposed new 'super franchise' for the southeast, combining FCC, Southern & Southeastern, and the word I heard was that First have been tipped as the likely candidate. This may or may not have some truth in it, I've no idea; does anybody else have any light to shed on this one?

I'll be interested to see the relationship of the new FCC/Southern combination with Southeastern if they aren't all merged in the end, because Southeastern is currently known as a "sister company" of Southern. I wouldn't be surprised if they are merged. The network should, in my opinion, divided into a significantly reduced number of regional TOCs in future - I'm sure this has been discussed elsewhere and I can definitely see it happening. We'll see

 

[Eagle]

... because Southeastern is currently known as a "sister company" of Southern.

That's only because they coincidentally happen to be owned by the same company (Govia) at the moment.

 

[Dave A]

I'd be very surprised if First get given it ahead of Govia, given the state of the franchises they already own...

Does this include the "Metro" services Southern operate. I was assuming they'd be taken over by TfL...?

 

[Eagle]

I'd be very surprised if First get given it ahead of Govia, given the state of the franchises they already own...

That doesn't come into consideration at all.

As I've said, the bids are blind. The DfT will pick for instance "bid C" as being the best, without knowing it's been submitted by First or whomever.

 

[jon0844]

For all the problems I've had on First Capital Connect, I'd still like to see them continue with the franchise afterwards. They've done a great job on the GN side (bar the decision to go with Atos to provide customer information) and on the TL side, where things have been somewhat worse, I'd say most problems come down to the delays in getting more rolling stock and the fact the whole line is pretty much a building site with platform extensions and the work through the core and beyond.

I'm not saying Southern are doing a bad job on their side either, so it will be a shame one way or another. I wonder if the two companies should have teamed up and set up a new company with a 50/50 stake?

 

[jopsuk]

I'd be very surprised if First get given it ahead of Govia, given the state of the franchises they already own...

Does this include the "Metro" services Southern operate. I was assuming they'd be taken over by TfL...?

Not during the "to 2020" franchise period. If this is going to happen, it may happen in 2020

 

[paul1609]

I'd be very surprised if First get given it ahead of Govia, given the state of the franchises they already own...

Does this include the "Metro" services Southern operate. I was assuming they'd be taken over by TfL...?

Im with you given that Govia will still have control of the Southern Franchise and its engineering expertise in introducing new rolling stock. I'd have thought it was a one horse race.
Don't forget that even in the Thameslink franchise the real money is South of the Thames, none of the Thameslink top ten revenue stations is north of St Pancras.

 

[Dave A]

For all the problems I've had on First Capital Connect, I'd still like to see them continue with the franchise afterwards. They've done a great job on the GN side.

Really?! I rarely get a train on time, and there's never any staff about...

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Im with you given that Govia will still have control of the Southern Franchise and its engineering expertise in introducing new rolling stock. I'd have thought it was a one horse race.
Don't forget that even in the Thameslink franchise the real money is South of the Thames, none of the Thameslink top ten revenue stations is north of St Pancras.

I think you will find St Albans - London is one of the top ten UK flows , and certainly the busiest station north of St Pancras - around 7 million journeys a year. (used to be the busiest London Midland station bar Euston and BNS in BR days)

 

[Urban Gateline]

(used to be the busiest London Midland station bar Euston and BNS in BR days)

BNS= Barnes, didn't know that London Midland managed Barnes, thought that was South West Trains!

BHM = Birmingham New Street

 

[Simon11]

You will find there is more money for fcc on the north of the thames rather than the south! Beford, harpenden, luton have a huge number of passengers.

 

[jopsuk]

and on the other FCC line, you've got the likes of Cambridge.

 

[tbtc]

Don't forget that even in the Thameslink franchise the real money is South of the Thames, none of the Thameslink top ten revenue stations is north of St Pancras

Most of the Thameslink stations north of London only have a Thameslink service (bar a couple of EMT stops on longer distance services). The only services at these stations involve the Thameslink core in central London.

Most (all?) of the Thameslink stations south of London have other TOCs providing different services (Southern, South Eastern, FGW...) - a good few of these stations have other routes to places outside central London (e.g. to Southampton, Milton Keynes). A lot of that revenue therefore doesn't involve the Thameslink core (e.g. Victoria).

Not really a fair comparison.

 

[cle]

I think you will find St Albans - London is one of the top ten UK flows , and certainly the busiest station north of St Pancras - around 7 million journeys a year. (used to be the busiest London Midland station bar Euston and BNS in BR days)

Would love to see that list...

I always thought after East Croydon, it'd be London Reading and London Peterborough.

 

[Clip]

Does this include the "Metro" services Southern operate. I was assuming they'd be taken over by TfL...?

Covers eyes and ears at another suggestion of TFL taking over even more services..

 

[jon0844]

I think that one way or another, TfL will take over a lot more services coming into London. Even if it's just rumour, speculation or wishful thinking at the moment.

 

[HH]

Applications haven't even been submitted yet! Anyway, bids are blind (i.e. the DfT won't know which company has submitted which bid).

First and Govia (the incumbents) are the only companies to state they're running so far.

I think you can take it as written that all the usual suspects will be after it. I know for a fact that two (not mentioned above) are.

I don't know why people would think that Southern are a shoo-in. Most of the expertise will TUPE with the Franchise. And you can bet that the DfT will be looking for a handover plan, just like they have with FCC and the TLK programme.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Would love to see that list...

I always thought after East Croydon, it'd be London Reading and London Peterborough.

When I get a chance , I will pull out the top 100 flows