Class 175 future

[ValleyLines142]

Also Rhymney and Coryton where they have had diagrammed working in the past. In additional to narrower doorways, they were not liked due to door operation too slow.

I've seen them on the City Line years ago, and one even made it to Penarth once. Shame really. I suppose they could be beneficial on the West Wales services.

 

[sprinterguy]

I see where you're coming from, but I think if all the 175s were allocated to the Cardiff-Manchester, capacity would increase, and then there's plenty of 158s for North Wales. I really, really wouldn't want to lose 175s.

Aye, that's not a bad idea I think.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Aye, that's not a bad idea I think.

Thank you and I think the 158s would look lovely going along the coast too! It's all about the setting! hehe.

 

[tbtc]

I think if all the 175s were allocated to the Cardiff-Manchester, capacity would increase, and then there's plenty of 158s for North Wales. I really, really wouldn't want to lose 175s. I think the 158s are too firm for a four hour journey if I'm perfectly honest.

Do you mean use all 27 on the service from Cardiff to Manchester (with the West Wales part provided by another service)?

The through service from Manchester to Milford Haven (etc) must be a nightmare to diagram, because you'll have times when a three coach 175 is on the quieter side west of Swansea whilst a two coach 175 is on the busy section from Manchester to Crewe/ Shrewsbury/ Hereford/ Cymbran/ Newport/ Cardiff...

Cutting the service would allow the three coach 175s to be dedicated to Manchester - Cardiff, where the capacity is more needed.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Do you mean use all 27 on the service from Cardiff to Manchester (with the West Wales part provided by another service)?

The through service from Manchester to Milford Haven (etc) must be a nightmare to diagram, because you'll have times when a three coach 175 is on the quieter side west of Swansea whilst a two coach 175 is on the busy section from Manchester to Crewe/ Shrewsbury/ Hereford/ Cymbran/ Newport/ Cardiff...

Cutting the service would allow the three coach 175s to be dedicated to Manchester - Cardiff, where the capacity is more needed.

To be fair most of the Cardiff-Manchester diagrams already are mainly booked for three-car 175s. But yes, indeed.

And I propose on having the West Wales services booked for Arriva 158s. I think splitting is a good idea. In general, how many people travel west of Cardiff from Manchester?

 

[jones_bangor]

Do you mean use all 27 on the service from Cardiff to Manchester (with the West Wales part provided by another service)?

The through service from Manchester to Milford Haven (etc) must be a nightmare to diagram, because you'll have times when a three coach 175 is on the quieter side west of Swansea whilst a two coach 175 is on the busy section from Manchester to Crewe/ Shrewsbury/ Hereford/ Cymbran/ Newport/ Cardiff...

Cutting the service would allow the three coach 175s to be dedicated to Manchester - Cardiff, where the capacity is more needed.

Couldn't agree with you more, it seems to make little sense. It would be better to terminate at either Cardiff / Swansea.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Couldn't agree with you more, it seems to make little sense. It would be better to terminate at either Cardiff / Swansea.

Yes, I certainly don't think Milford Haven needs 3-cars; after all, it is 2 hourly! I think 158s would be fab!

Plus I wouldn't lose my beloved Coradia's on my way to Casnewydd so happy days

 

[northwichcat]

Aren't the resident of Chester allowed to shoot arrows at us after dark..... Better be careful there after dark!

Not just residents of Chester but any English person is allowed to fire at a Welsh person. Although, to comply with other laws they aren't allowed to carry a weapon about with the intention to harm someone and targeting Welsh people would be seen as a hate crime, so while it's legal it's impossible to actually do!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Just to add some points to my original post:

1. I would prefer the option to see new trains ordered, considering we have plenty running around that are life expired or close to being life expired.

2. There are plenty of 158s around and they are sold reliable units, therefore I can't see them being withdrawn early, which is why I'd proposed 158s as the alternative being the fastest corridor linked diesel stock. Scotrail likely having some 158s replaced by electrification in the near future will mean some 158s will need new homes.

3. 158s were designed for long distance services. I've done Newcastle-Manchester on one and a 158 is certainly suitable for a journey of that length, which a lot of people wouldn't say about Desiros. Yes Manchester to Milford Haven is longer than Manchester to Newcastle but based on what's been posted on here before there's few people who board one side of Cardiff who are still on the other side and even then they probably aren't staying on until Manchester.

4. I don't know exactly how the ATW catering works, in terms of how much of the journey has a trolley service but I know that on 2x170s on Manchester-Hull services it's not ideal (although now most services are 1x170 which is less ideal overall.) The catering service is provided between Manchester and Leeds with one station call between the two (Huddersfield), this means that you only get refreshments offered to you once and if you're at the wrong end of the wrong train you get catering offered to you once either very near the start or end of your journey.

 

[Greenback]

Do you mean use all 27 on the service from Cardiff to Manchester (with the West Wales part provided by another service)?

The through service from Manchester to Milford Haven (etc) must be a nightmare to diagram, because you'll have times when a three coach 175 is on the quieter side west of Swansea whilst a two coach 175 is on the busy section from Manchester to Crewe/ Shrewsbury/ Hereford/ Cymbran/ Newport/ Cardiff...

I should imagine it is difficult to diagram units effectively on such a long run, however the capacity provided seems to match up with demand more now than a few years ago.

There shouldn't be any two coach unit sbetween Cardiff and Manchester, but that's not to say that every service West of Swansea is quieter. I've been on through trains that have been at their busiest between Llanelli and Swansea and Hereford and Shrewsbury!

Cutting the service would allow the three coach 175s to be dedicated to Manchester - Cardiff, where the capacity is more needed.

I can;t argue too much that demand is generally higher there. The problem with splitting the service is that it may cost more in staff and units to do it. There is no ATW depot at Swansea, so it's logical for services to work between Cardiff and Carmarthen, particularly as Cardiff is a bigger draw! And it makes sense commercially to integrate those trains with others there.

I can't think of any other services that would link so well with the West Wales ones.

To be fair most of the Cardiff-Manchester diagrams already are mainly booked for three-car 175s. But yes, indeed.

And I propose on having the West Wales services booked for Arriva 158s. I think splitting is a good idea. In general, how many people travel west of Cardiff from Manchester?

It doesn't really matter how many people travel between Manchester (or indeed other stations on the route) and west of Cardiff. The bottom line is whether it would cost more to split the services, in terms of staffing/units or losing revenue from through passengers who dislike changing trains.

Most Milford trains are already booked for two cars, as you say, one notable exception being the peak time (1705) service from Swansea, which is packed with 3 cars at the moment!

Yes, I certainly don't think Milford Haven needs 3-cars; after all, it is 2 hourly! I think 158s would be fab!

Plus I wouldn't lose my beloved Coradia's on my way to Casnewydd so happy days

I doubt it needs 3 cars, which is why it doesn't normally get 3 cars! But you have to consider other sections too. There must be many lines where some of the route doesn't always warrant the number of coaches provided, while other parts of it do.

 

[PHILIPE]

I've seen them on the City Line years ago, and one even made it to Penarth once. Shame really. I suppose they could be beneficial on the West Wales services.

Diagrammed workking to Penarth up until about 2005
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I should imagine it is difficult to diagram units effectively on such a long run, however the capacity provided seems to match up with demand more now than a few years ago.

There shouldn't be any two coach unit sbetween Cardiff and Manchester, but that's not to say that every service West of Swansea is quieter. I've been on through trains that have been at their busiest between Llanelli and Swansea and Hereford and Shrewsbury!



I can;t argue too much that demand is generally higher there. The problem with splitting the service is that it may cost more in staff and units to do it. There is no ATW depot at Swansea, so it's logical for services to work between Cardiff and Carmarthen, particularly as Cardiff is a bigger draw! And it makes sense commercially to integrate those trains with others there.

I can't think of any other services that would link so well with the West Wales ones.



It doesn't really matter how many people travel between Manchester (or indeed other stations on the route) and west of Cardiff. The bottom line is whether it would cost more to split the services, in terms of staffing/units or losing revenue from through passengers who dislike changing trains.

Most Milford trains are already booked for two cars, as you say, one notable exception being the peak time (1705) service from Swansea, which is packed with 3 cars at the moment!



I doubt it needs 3 cars, which is why it doesn't normally get 3 cars! But you have to consider other sections too. There must be many lines where some of the route doesn't always warrant the number of coaches provided, while other parts of it do.

Busy between Manchester and Swansea or Carmarthen even if 2 coaches adequate to Milford Haven. Very difficult to Diagram what might be the Peak at Northern end may be a quieter time of day at the Westen end or vice versa.

 

[Greenback]

Diagrammed workking to Penarth up until about 2005
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Busy between Manchester and Swansea or Carmarthen even if 2 coaches adequate to Milford Haven. Very difficult to Diagram what might be the Peak at Northern end may be a quieter time of day at the Westen end or vice versa.

That's right. There are different flows and different peaks of demand along such a long route. Mostly, as far as I can tell from my travels, they do quite a good job of trying to match the limited resources to demand.

 

[WatcherZero]

While on the topic of 175's has 175002 been checked over yet? how bads the damage?

 

[Rhydgaled]

One, which wouldn't be 100% popular in Wales, would be to switch the 175s for refurbished 158s. Following additional Scotrail electrification the number of carriages could be increased this way.

I for one like to see all Wales' 175s replaced with 158s and 159s as long as we get at least as many 2-car units and 3-car units (prefrablly a few more 2-car as well for some doubling up and extra services). However, electrification of Waterloo - Exeter doesn't seem to be on the cards so there aren't going to be enough 3-car units available to do that so you'd need 32 2-car class 158s just to replace the 16 3-car 175s. For this reason, that idea simply isn't going to work.

An alternative would be to give us 6 or 7 (more would be nice) additional 2-car 158s to replace half the 11 strong 2-car 175 fleet. Then cut the cabs off 10 2-car 175 driving cars and form 5 4-car units out of them. The left-over 2-car unit would provide spare driving cars, or could have both cabs hacked off to make 2 of the 3-car sets up to 4-car. Cutting the cabs off is still unlikely, but probablly easier than finding enough 158s to replace the full 175 fleet or building extra 175 coaches.

Better idea would be transfer the even more temperamental 180s to Chester for some TLC and use them on North Wales - Manchester / Birmingham (via WCML) and a revised Swansea - Manchester service.

Not sure about using 180s, but the idea of sending the Holyhead - Birminghams via WCML not Wrexham could allow the 158s to be removed from Holyhead - Birmingham and instead running Aberystwyth - Birmingham (or Aberystwyth - Shrewsbury with LM getting extra wires and 350s to work Shrewsbury - Birmingham) hourly. Would be good if the north Wales coast service could be:

• Manchester - Llandudno
• Manchester - Holyhead
• London Euston - Holyhead (dragged Pendolinos, every 2 hours instead of the current lumpy hourly with massive gaps)
• Birmingham - WCML - Holyhead
• 2 express trains each way (one morning, one evening, perhaps a third around lunch time) Holyhead - Cardiff

but I doubt it can.

if we must have the shortest trains possible, including gangways so that they can be doubled up with as little inconvenience as possible would surely only have been sensible. :roll:

It is my opinion that all multiple units (unless there are required to travel above 110mph) should have through corridor connections / gangways at the ends. If you don't have end-gangways, push-pull LHCS is actually more flexible. Above 110mph, you can't have end-gangways I think, so push-pull LHCS is always going to be more flexible.

3-car 175's would go on the busiest routes - e.g. Heart of Wales Line (3-car), Birmingham International to Shrewsbury (3-car), Shrewsbury to Aberystwyth (2-car, on what could be a new separate route, even though there may be problems with 175's on this route).

Heart Of Wales 3-car 175!?!?!?!? Given they only have single 153s most of the time (I think), with some 150s in summer, a 2-car 175 (if you give them 175s at all) would be a better choice. A 175 is flat-out a bad idea for Shrewsbury - Aberystwyth. ETRMS aside, their lack of corridor connections would ruin the service (it has a portion for Pwllheli attached, which splits off at Machynllyth, so is 4-car between Machynllyth and Shrewsbury). If Cambrian stock is ever changed, I think it should be for 159s (3-car on the two branches, 6-car east of Machynllyth (probablly only needs to be 5-car east of Mach., but both branches need extra capacity at times from what I've read of the coast and seen at Aberystwyth)).

It's ridiculous how Arriva run a Manchester to CARMARTHEN (!) service using a 158!

They don't often. I'd be happier if they did run a 158 into south-west Wales instead of a 2-car 175. 175s bore me (would rather than travel on one than Pacers, ATW 153s (other TOCs might give more legroom) or 150s though) and a 158 actually has a few more seats than a 2-car 175.

HOW is only cleared for Sprinters. 175s are more difficult to clear than 158s as FNW found out when they originally received them.

Wrong. 158s are Sprinters yet (so I'm told on this forum) are only cleared ECS over the Heart Of Wales Line (HOWL). 175s however ARE cleared, and have worked the HOWL service in the past when the main line was closed so it was the only way of getting them to and from Chester depot.

I think the 158s would be good on West Wales services and Valley Lines, but they are only cleared as far as Radyr and Penarth I believe.

South-west Wales yes, ValleyLines no. What a waste of a 90mph geared 158 on a 40-55mph ValleyLine with frequent stops like Maesteg (the Cardiff - Cheltenham service probably has some 90mph running, but I've seen a 158 from (I guess) Maesteg turn round at Cardiff and go back back to Maesteg before).

Do you mean use all 27 on the service from Cardiff to Manchester (with the West Wales part provided by another service)?

Cutting the service would allow the three coach 175s to be dedicated to Manchester - Cardiff, where the capacity is more needed.

I'd say the capacity of 3-cars (at least) is probablly needed between Manchester and Swansea, perhaps with a few extended to Carmarthen but not many. Cardiff - Milford Haven / Fishguard would be best served by 158 (not calling at Swanline stations) and Swansea - Pembroke Dock by 150s or double 153s I think.

And I propose on having the West Wales services booked for Arriva 158s. I think splitting is a good idea. In general, how many people travel west of Cardiff from Manchester?

I'd guess there are not many from west of Swansea to north of Cardiff on the Manchesters, but Swansea to north of Cardiff and west of Swansea to Cardiff are both important flows I expect. What I'd propose (and reforming the 2-car 175s into 4-car sets and introducing extra 158s as I suggested above would help) would be to replace the Manchester - Carmarthen/Milford Haven services with:

• Manchester - Swansea services using a mix of LHCS and 3-car 175s (perhaps some 4-car 175s too if you can hack the cabs off 2-cars)
• Hourly Swansea - Carmarthen 153/150 all stations stoppers (extending to Pembroke Dock in alternate hours, and Milford Haven in the others)
• Hourly Swansea - Carmarthen semi-fast (calling at Gowerton, Llanelli and Pembrey) (extending to Milford Haven in alternate hours) with 2-car 175s (if they aren't made into 4-cars), 153s or 156s if we can get some.
• Hourly (or 2-hourly initally) Cardiff - Carmarthen 158 operated services calling at Bridgend, Port Talbot and Llanelli only (extending to Fishguard every 2 hours)

As Greenback says though, the lack of an ATW depot at Swansea could be a problem. I can only suggest providing a facility further west (at Carmarthen probablly, or to make use of Trecwn) or sending the Swansea - south west Wales units up to Shrewsbury, Crewe or Chester over the HOWL (adding extra services, with a reduced calling pattern, while you're at it).

I can't think of any other services that would link so well with the West Wales ones.

I personally think the south-west Wales services link very badly with the south-east Wales - Manchester services, given how indirect Carmarthen to Shrewsbury via Swansea and Cardiff is. It would be much more logical to link a Milford/Fishguard to Cardiff service into the Cardiff - Portsmouth in my opinion (running 4-car 158s east of Cardiff/Swansea, 2-car further west) but TOC boundarys make that slightly problematic.

 

[Greenback]

I personally think the south-west Wales services link very badly with the south-east Wales - Manchester services, given how indirect Carmarthen to Shrewsbury via Swansea and Cardiff is. It would be much more logical to link a Milford/Fishguard to Cardiff service into the Cardiff - Portsmouth in my opinion (running 4-car 158s east of Cardiff/Swansea, 2-car further west) but TOC boundarys make that slightly problematic.

When talking about linking in, I meant in terms of diagramming. I know that the dwell times at Cardiff can be improved in some cases, but that is more down to pathing than anything else.

Perhaps I should also have specified ATW services! The only other ones which I can think of are the Cheltenham trains which currently mostly go to and from Maesteg, or the Ebbw Vale service. Neither of those, in my opinion, would diagram as well as what is currently done. It also would not be as attractive for longer distance travellers, and although West Wales to Cardiff is a much more important flow, there are also people (including myself I admit) who use the trains through to Abergavenny, Hereford, Shrewsbury and further north.

In fact, the best (cheapest and fastest) way to Scotland is via the Marches!

 

[ValleyLines142]

I for one like to see all Wales' 175s replaced with 158s and 159s as long as we get at least as many 2-car units and 3-car units (prefrablly a few more 2-car as well for some doubling up and extra services). However, electrification of Waterloo - Exeter doesn't seem to be on the cards so there aren't going to be enough 3-car units available to do that so you'd need 32 2-car class 158s just to replace the 16 3-car 175s. For this reason, that idea simply isn't going to work.

An alternative would be to give us 6 or 7 (more would be nice) additional 2-car 158s to replace half the 11 strong 2-car 175 fleet. Then cut the cabs off 10 2-car 175 driving cars and form 5 4-car units out of them. The left-over 2-car unit would provide spare driving cars, or could have both cabs hacked off to make 2 of the 3-car sets up to 4-car. Cutting the cabs off is still unlikely, but probablly easier than finding enough 158s to replace the full 175 fleet or building extra 175 coaches.

Not sure about using 180s, but the idea of sending the Holyhead - Birminghams via WCML not Wrexham could allow the 158s to be removed from Holyhead - Birmingham and instead running Aberystwyth - Birmingham (or Aberystwyth - Shrewsbury with LM getting extra wires and 350s to work Shrewsbury - Birmingham) hourly. Would be good if the north Wales coast service could be:

• Manchester - Llandudno
• Manchester - Holyhead
• London Euston - Holyhead (dragged Pendolinos, every 2 hours instead of the current lumpy hourly with massive gaps)
• Birmingham - WCML - Holyhead
• 2 express trains each way (one morning, one evening, perhaps a third around lunch time) Holyhead - Cardiff

but I doubt it can.

It is my opinion that all multiple units (unless there are required to travel above 110mph) should have through corridor connections / gangways at the ends. If you don't have end-gangways, push-pull LHCS is actually more flexible. Above 110mph, you can't have end-gangways I think, so push-pull LHCS is always going to be more flexible.


Heart Of Wales 3-car 175!?!?!?!? Given they only have single 153s most of the time (I think), with some 150s in summer, a 2-car 175 (if you give them 175s at all) would be a better choice. A 175 is flat-out a bad idea for Shrewsbury - Aberystwyth. ETRMS aside, their lack of corridor connections would ruin the service (it has a portion for Pwllheli attached, which splits off at Machynllyth, so is 4-car between Machynllyth and Shrewsbury). If Cambrian stock is ever changed, I think it should be for 159s (3-car on the two branches, 6-car east of Machynllyth (probablly only needs to be 5-car east of Mach., but both branches need extra capacity at times from what I've read of the coast and seen at Aberystwyth)).

They don't often. I'd be happier if they did run a 158 into south-west Wales instead of a 2-car 175. 175s bore me (would rather than travel on one than Pacers, ATW 153s (other TOCs might give more legroom) or 150s though) and a 158 actually has a few more seats than a 2-car 175.

Wrong. 158s are Sprinters yet (so I'm told on this forum) are only cleared ECS over the Heart Of Wales Line (HOWL). 175s however ARE cleared, and have worked the HOWL service in the past when the main line was closed so it was the only way of getting them to and from Chester depot.

South-west Wales yes, ValleyLines no. What a waste of a 90mph geared 158 on a 40-55mph ValleyLine with frequent stops like Maesteg (the Cardiff - Cheltenham service probably has some 90mph running, but I've seen a 158 from (I guess) Maesteg turn round at Cardiff and go back back to Maesteg before).


I'd say the capacity of 3-cars (at least) is probablly needed between Manchester and Swansea, perhaps with a few extended to Carmarthen but not many. Cardiff - Milford Haven / Fishguard would be best served by 158 (not calling at Swanline stations) and Swansea - Pembroke Dock by 150s or double 153s I think.

I'd guess there are not many from west of Swansea to north of Cardiff on the Manchesters, but Swansea to north of Cardiff and west of Swansea to Cardiff are both important flows I expect. What I'd propose (and reforming the 2-car 175s into 4-car sets and introducing extra 158s as I suggested above would help) would be to replace the Manchester - Carmarthen/Milford Haven services with:

• Manchester - Swansea services using a mix of LHCS and 3-car 175s (perhaps some 4-car 175s too if you can hack the cabs off 2-cars)
• Hourly Swansea - Carmarthen 153/150 all stations stoppers (extending to Pembroke Dock in alternate hours, and Milford Haven in the others)
• Hourly Swansea - Carmarthen semi-fast (calling at Gowerton, Llanelli and Pembrey) (extending to Milford Haven in alternate hours) with 2-car 175s (if they aren't made into 4-cars), 153s or 156s if we can get some.
• Hourly (or 2-hourly initally) Cardiff - Carmarthen 158 operated services calling at Bridgend, Port Talbot and Llanelli only (extending to Fishguard every 2 hours)

As Greenback says though, the lack of an ATW depot at Swansea could be a problem. I can only suggest providing a facility further west (at Carmarthen probablly, or to make use of Trecwn) or sending the Swansea - south west Wales units up to Shrewsbury, Crewe or Chester over the HOWL (adding extra services, with a reduced calling pattern, while you're at it).

I personally think the south-west Wales services link very badly with the south-east Wales - Manchester services, given how indirect Carmarthen to Shrewsbury via Swansea and Cardiff is. It would be much more logical to link a Milford/Fishguard to Cardiff service into the Cardiff - Portsmouth in my opinion (running 4-car 158s east of Cardiff/Swansea, 2-car further west) but TOC boundarys make that slightly problematic.

Sounds like a good plan! Not sure about 158s and 159s on Cardiff-Manchester's though.

 

[Greenback]

If a coupled together four or five car 158/159 provides mroe capacity through the Marches then I am all for it, depsite the fact that I prefer travelling in 175's.

 

[ValleyLines142]

If a coupled together four or five car 158/159 provides mroe capacity through the Marches then I am all for it, depsite the fact that I prefer travelling in 175's.

I agree, I love the 175s. Would hate to have a train replaced by something twice as old.

 

[Greenback]

I agree, I love the 175s. Would hate to have a train replaced by something twice as old.

Indeed, but we must think of the greater good, and extra capacity is needed!

 

[tbtc]

I for one like to see all Wales' 175s replaced with 158s and 159s as long as we get at least as many 2-car units and 3-car units (prefrablly a few more 2-car as well for some doubling up and extra services)

If a coupled together four or five car 158/159 provides mroe capacity through the Marches then I am all for it, depsite the fact that I prefer travelling in 175's.

we must think of the greater good, and extra capacity is needed!

This is the way that I see it.

At the moment ATW run

• 121
• 142
• 143
• 150
• 153
• 158
• 175 (two coach)
• 175 (three coach)
• WAG Express stock (class 57 atm)

Quite a muddle to deal with (allocations, staff training etc), considering it's not a *huge* franchise (C2C have roughly as many units but just one type of stock).

If you could swap the seventy 175 coaches for at least seventy 158 coaches then that would be a step in the right direction (bearing in mind that you can use three 158s to make two "three coach" units, like FGW do).

The next step would be sorting out the Sprinter situation, maybe releasing the 142s to Northern in exchange for more 150/153s from Northern (Northern don't really need single 153s on any services) and maybe some FGW 143s... but that's a whole other thread...

With more 158s, ATW can then run more services which split/join (e.g. four coach Manchester - Llandudno junction, splitting into a two coach service for Llandudno/ Bangor, or running four coach from Cardiff to Carmarthen, with two coaches going further west), rather than the inflexibility of three coaches.

The frustrating thing with the 175s is that there aren't quite enough (11x2 + 16x3) to replace the XC 170s (13x2 + 16x3), otherwise I'd suggest a swap around (e.g. 175s to XC to send a similar number of 170s to Scotrail to send a similar number of 158s to ATW), but the maths don't work (and ATW really need additional capacity, not just a "like for like" swap).

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

They actually belong to the North West - they were ordered for the North West franchise and are based at a purpose built depot at Chester, in the North West.

First North Western covered North Wales at the time, and the 175s were intended to work Holyhead/Llandudno-Chester-Birmingham (via Crewe)/Manchester, as well as Man Airport/Blackpool/Cumbria.
TPE then bought 185s and sent the Man Airport 175s back. ATW was the only sensible recipient.
After Cardiff took control they "stole" some 175s from North Wales (Holyhead is now mostly 158s) and put them on Marches/South Wales services they were never intended for.

Anyway, ATW and Alstom made them work properly and they are great trains for the services they operate. Just a pity there are not more of them.

 

[PHILIPE]

Holyheads to Birmingham have to be 158s because the pattern of serces entails them interchanging with Cambrian services where at the present time only 158s are suitable.

 

[headshot119]

Let's be honest the 175s aren't going to be anywhere really, the purpose built depot for them as it Chester.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Indeed, but we must think of the greater good, and extra capacity is needed!

That's where I bring in my suggestion so that both targets are made.

 

[WatcherZero]

Northern will have strengthend most of the routes 153's ran single but I imagine they would still find them very useful for strengthening without doubling a service, a more flexible catering of supply to demand.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Sounds like a good plan! Not sure about 158s and 159s on Cardiff-Manchester's though.

There were actually several different plans in that post. Only one of them (swapping ATW's entire 175 fleet for an unobtainable number of 158s or a mix of 158s and unobtainable 159s) would have replaced 175s with 158s between Cardiff and Manchester. The other two options (which could be done in combination with each other) were:

• Creating 4-car 175s by taking one cab away from 2-car sets and replacing the cab with a through gangway (ie. converting driving coaches to centre cars) with a smaller number of additional 158s moving to Wales
• Splitting Manchester - south-west Wales trains at Swansea and introducing LHCS sets on Manchester - Swansea, providing extra Cardiff - south-west Wales and Swansea - south-west Wales services to compensate

As to tbtc's latest comment, let's find the fleet sizes of the units ATW run from memory of theJunction's fleet list, info on this fourm and Wikipedia:

• 121 - 1
• 142 - 15
• 143 - 15
• 150 - 31
• 153 - 8
• 158 - 24
• 175 (two coach) - 11
• 175 (three coach) - 16
• 3x Class 67
• 16-20x mrk2 coaches
• 2x mrk3 buffet cars

That's nine types of stock, couting LHCS as one.

My personal hope is that the whole ValleyLines network will be electrified with a standard fleet of EMUs (brand new class 377s, or cascades of Southern's with them getting new units, would be ideal I think, they'd need at least 90mph capabilty for Swanline and Cheltenhams).

I estimated once that ATW probablly need about half (15) of their 150s away from the ValleyLines. If that's right, I'd suggest sending 8 of the 150s released from the Valleys to GW to replace their last 8 Pacers. The remaining 7 150s I'd send away, along with all 8 153s, to be replaced by 11 class 156 units from Northern or East Anglia.

That'd condence Wales' train fleet down to 7 (6 diesel) types:

• ????x class 377
• 15x class 150
• 11x class 156
• 24x class 158 (plus more from Scotrail once their wires are up please)
• 11x class 175 (2-car)
• 16x class 175 (3-car)
• LHCS

Replacing the 175s with Sprinters would drop another type, giving Wales 35x 158 and 16x 159 (actually, they could probablly be considered 3-car 158s since that's within the number (17) of 3-car 158s with the lower-powered engines that were 3-car sets that was posted ealier in this thread, and FGW can keep their 1 3-car set). Getting the 3-car 158s off SWT and Northern would be near impossible though, which is why I think Wales unfortunatly has to keep the 175s (unless you replace the 11 2-car 175s with 158s and all the 3-car 175s with a mix of 4-car 158s and 5-car LHCS sets, which could perhaps be considered an overprovision of capacity).

 

[jones_bangor]

Indeed, but we must think of the greater good, and extra capacity is needed!

Putting 175s of Holyhead - Birmingham services would be great.

I do wonder how feasible it would be to form some 4 car 175 units for a Swansea - Manchester service.

 

[Greenback]

Putting 175s of Holyhead - Birmingham services would be great.

I do wonder how feasible it would be to form some 4 car 175 units for a Swansea - Manchester service.

Sadly, they can't go on Holyhead - Birmibgham trains while the diagrams interchange with Cambrian trains, as the 175's can't go on the Cambrian. And there don;t seem to be sufficient units to form 4 car trains.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Sadly, they can't go on Holyhead - Birmibgham trains while the diagrams interchange with Cambrian trains, as the 175's can't go on the Cambrian. And there don;t seem to be sufficient units to form 4 car trains.

As I think I said earlier, if the Holyhead - Birminghams went via 'Not Wrexham' as somebody else suggested and the Cambrians were cut back to Shrewsbury or doubled to hourly right through to Birmingham you could put something other than 158s on Holyhead - Birminghams. It's probably a big ask to get enough stock for that though.

In terms of 4-car 175s, to turn 11x 2-car and 16x 3-car sets into 14x 3-car and 7x 4-car units (2 lengthened from 3-car, the rest formed of 2x 2-car units) would reduce the total number of class 175 units by 6, to 21 units. That would require at least 6 (the more the merrier though) additional 2-car trains to maintain the current number of units. That number of 158s would be much more easily obtained than replacments for all 27 175s (indeed, if mark3s replace the stock currently used on the WAG express, ATW should have enough mark2s spare to form 6 LHCS trains of at least 3-cars, which would replace the 6 lost 175s with longer trains). Of course you'd need DBSOs (or DVTs) to go with them and TDM equiped diesel locos to work with them (unless you modify both loco and driving trailer, as is done with 67s - Adding TDM to the loco reduces the work required on the DBSOs to just making sure they are in a fit and safe condition to run).

The difficulty then with making 4-car 175s is not shortage of stock, it is replacing driving cabs with through walkways (ie. converting driving coaches to centre coaches). Would this be any more possible than ordering more centre cars?

Of course, just those LHCS trains might eliminate the need for 4-car 175s anyway. Why do TOCs have to leave LHCS sitting in sidings or depots when there are capacity shortages? I guess the lack of push-pull capable diesel locomotives might be something to do with it.

 

[northwichcat]

First North Western covered North Wales at the time, and the 175s were intended to work Holyhead/Llandudno-Chester-Birmingham (via Crewe)/Manchester, as well as Man Airport/Blackpool/Cumbria.

They also did some peak workings on the Manchester-Altrincham-Chester line and 150s worked some of the Manchester-Warrington-Chester services that didn't continue to Llandudno.

TPE then bought 185s and sent the Man Airport 175s back. ATW was the only sensible recipient.

Given TPE also released a number of 158s when they got the 185s ATW could have had those instead. The 175s could have been used on Northern services like Liverpool-Blackpool, Liverpool-Manchester Airport etc. and stayed based at Chester. However, considering at that time both the ATW and TPE 158s were in need of a decent refurbishment I imagine there would have been a lot of complaints if that had happened. Although, saying that the TPE 158s had a FC section which would have been more useful in use on ATW services than being declassified and running CT, FGW and Northern services, as happened.
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The next step would be sorting out the Sprinter situation, maybe releasing the 142s to Northern in exchange for more 150/153s from Northern (Northern don't really need single 153s on any services) and maybe some FGW 143s... but that's a whole other thread...

I can't really see that working until Pacers start to be withdrawn as a result of extra stock being available and not just the extra stock needed to add capacity to the network. Withdraw the Merseytravel 142s, give Northern the ATW 142s and ATW the FGW 143s.

The frustrating thing with the 175s is that there aren't quite enough (11x2 + 16x3) to replace the XC 170s (13x2 + 16x3), otherwise I'd suggest a swap around (e.g. 175s to XC to send a similar number of 170s to Scotrail to send a similar number of 158s to ATW), but the maths don't work (and ATW really need additional capacity, not just a "like for like" swap).

EMT could usefully exchange their 158s for 175s if additional Sprinters become available but overall I can't really see that working that well and it would have the catering trolley issue with 175s in multiple that ATW would have.

 

[The Planner]

As I think I said earlier, if the Holyhead - Birminghams went via 'Not Wrexham' as somebody else suggested and the Cambrians were cut back to Shrewsbury or doubled to hourly right through to Birmingham you could put something other than 158s on Holyhead - Birminghams. It's probably a big ask to get enough stock for that though.

If you doubled the Cambrians, are you stopping the Holyheads short at Shrewsbury ?? or are you intending a Cambrian hourly, plus a Holyhead not via Wrexham ? as there are no paths to do that between Wolves and International.