Virgin trains to Brighton

[transmanche]

The number 38 (from Clapton Pond to Victoria) runs every minute, having a Peak Vehicle Requirement (PVR) of 68. There is no need whatsoever!!

The service frequency is every 2-3 minutes in peak hours, with a PVR of 70 vehicles. The 38 is a very busy route which although only 7 miles in length, really does need that number of vehicles. If it didn't, TfL wouldn't have specified it as a requirement.

This is not uncommon in London. Take route N29 (a night bus), which has a PVR of 37 vehicles and runs at a 3-4 minute frequency on Fri/Sat nights. And even then buses are full.

It's the benefit of having a publicly-run bus service (albeit not publicly operated).

 

[TEW]

God Knows how bad things would have got on the Pompey Direct If Virgin had been allowed to run an hourly service as was proposed! considering once you had passed Guildford there are not a lot of locations for trains to pass

I just found out a Thames Trains timetable from Summer 2002 and the Virgin Trains service in and around Reading is very interesting. Virgin ran fast Reading-Guildford services nearly hourly, unfortunately the Thames Trains timetable doesn't show the final destination for the trains. From Reading XC departures to the Guildford/Gatwick direction were at (I don't know the final destination of trains listed just as Guildford):
0759 Guildford
1016 Guildford, Redhill, Gatwick (Could travel beyond, but not to Brighton.)
1100 Gatwick, Brighton
1120 Guildford
1152 Guildford
1219 Guildford
1320 Guildford, Redhill, Gatwick, Brighton
1416 Guildford, Redhill, Gatwick (Could travel beyond, but not to Brighton.)
1511 Guildford
1616 Guildford
1718 Guildford
1804 Gatwick, Brighton
1936 Guildford, Redhill, Gatwick, Brighton
2020 Guildford
2112 Guildford, Redhill, Gatwick, Brighton
2225(FO) Guildford, Redhill, Gatwick, Brighton

I never knew the service to Guildford was that good. It's also interesting that the Reading-Basingstoke Virgin service was only around two-hourly, with a couple of trains running fast Oxford-Basingstoke.

 

[Eagle]

(I don't know the final destination of trains listed just as Guildford):

Might be Portsmouth Harbour via Haslemere.

 

[TEW]

Yeh, don't know if all of them would have continued though, seems like a lot of trains to Portsmouth.

 

[HH]

IIRC one of the problems with running XC to Brighton was that it was highly inefficient in usage of rolling stock and staff. The TT seems to confirm that.

 

[Minstral25]

A significant number of airport passengers actually opt for Southern/FCC services because Gatwick Express is not only expensive but offers no great time saving when compared with its neighbouring operators. Boarding a Southern service from the East/WestCoastway at East Croydon and you usually end up fighting for space with the luggage of people coming from the airport. Meanwhile, a 10 car 442 sails through, often with up to 7 empty carriages.

What I believe was talked about at one point was stopping the service at Clapham Junction and East Croydon. I can see both the positives and negatives of this idea. It would have opened up new journey opportunities but crowding may just have shifted from one service to another, i.e. those who usually board a 12 coach 377 switch to a 5 coach 442.

I'd agree - GatEx carts air most of the day - in the evenings after 8pm I've seen fully empty trains and through the day they rarely seem to have more than 20% occupancy. That's why in the peaks they are extended and are full for those few trains but mostly with Commuters not Airport traffic (and rarely with any standing), and no-where near as full as the outer Suburban commuter services where people are wedged into the doors.

It would be a good idea if GatEx ceased to be and was replaced with a regular Gatwick/East Croydon/Clapham Jnct/Victoria standard service which could take most of the East Croydon to Victoria traffic meaning the other outer suburban services will get some relief.

 

[455driver]

Whilst the Guildford train serves Guildford only once past Reading??????

And down the "direct" to Havant and then on to Eastleigh which is a handy way of keeping the drivers route knowledge up if that route is needed as a diversion during engineering work/ disruption (as it was last week)

 

[ValleyLines142]

The service frequency is every 2-3 minutes in peak hours, with a PVR of 70 vehicles. The 38 is a very busy route which although only 7 miles in length, really does need that number of vehicles. If it didn't, TfL wouldn't have specified it as a requirement.

This is not uncommon in London. Take route N29 (a night bus), which has a PVR of 37 vehicles and runs at a 3-4 minute frequency on Fri/Sat nights. And even then buses are full.

It's the benefit of having a publicly-run bus service (albeit not publicly operated).

But really does it need to run every 2 minutes?!

 

[causton]

But really does it need to run every 2 minutes?!

Have you ever been on it? I have and I would say yes, having once seen a queue of 3 route 38 buses, all packed to the brim with people - this was on a Saturday afternoon though!

 

[ValleyLines142]

Have you ever been on it? I have and I would say yes, having once seen a queue of 3 route 38 buses, all packed to the brim with people - this was on a Saturday afternoon though!

Yes I have. At Piccadilly Circus I saw four in a row, and there were barely anyone on them, they could have all fitted in one bus, and this was at 5pm on a Friday evening. They're all double deck now anyway.

But even so, our own personal experiences doesn't tell us anything. Fact is, I don't think it needs to be that frequent, there are more bus services in London that are way busier.

Anyway, this is supposed to be for rail. I think a direct service to somewhere to the north of London from Brighton would be very useful. Clearly this is the case with Reading - Gatwick Airport/Basingstoke, you no longer have to travel with FGW to Paddington, tube it and then SWT from Waterloo. And I believe that's why the faily First Great Western service out of Brighton is popular.

 

[IanXC]

I think a direct service to somewhere to the north of London from Brighton would be very useful. Clearly this is the case with Reading - Gatwick Airport/Basingstoke, you no longer have to travel with FGW to Paddington, tube it and then SWT from Waterloo. And I believe that's why the faily First Great Western service out of Brighton is popular.

Like Bedford? :P

Think of the connections available from St Pancras-Kings Cross too.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Like Bedford? :P

Think of the connections available from St Pancras-Kings Cross too.

Not just Bedford. Anywhere really (obviously within reason). Crosslink for example is intending to provide services through London without having to cross on the tube. It should have been further expanded.

 

[Minstral25]

Anyway, this is supposed to be for rail. I think a direct service to somewhere to the north of London from Brighton would be very useful. Clearly this is the case with Reading - Gatwick Airport/Basingstoke, you no longer have to travel with FGW to Paddington, tube it and then SWT from Waterloo. And I believe that's why the faily First Great Western service out of Brighton is popular.

A myth on this site is that the Reading to Gatwick service is actually used by very many Gatwick passengers, its actually just a small branch line service that happens to have an airport at one end.

I'm not a regular user but do travel on it from Redhill to Guildford quite often at different times. Whilst there may be one or two passengers with suitcases on the train generally 90-95% of the passengers are just locals using their local service for school, work, shopping or visiting.

Which is why I don't really think a new Reading - Brighton service will have much impact as most passengers want to go at their times and it is perfectly easy in 99% of cases to get the next train to Victoria, pop across London by tube and catch the next Birmingham or wherever bound train.

Very few passengers (mostly rail enthusiasts) would time there journey to fit with the odd service which is why the service was cancelled in the first place. There is just not enough room on the BML for a regular service without removing an existing service.

 

[tbtc]

I believe that's why the faily First Great Western service out of Brighton is popular

Deliberate spelling "mistake"?

 

[150222]

Yes I have. At Piccadilly Circus I saw four in a row, and there were barely anyone on them, they could have all fitted in one bus, and this was at 5pm on a Friday evening. They're all double deck now anyway.

But even so, our own personal experiences doesn't tell us anything. Fact is, I don't think it needs to be that frequent, there are more bus services in London that are way busier.

Anyway, this is supposed to be for rail. I think a direct service to somewhere to the north of London from Brighton would be very useful. Clearly this is the case with Reading - Gatwick Airport/Basingstoke, you no longer have to travel with FGW to Paddington, tube it and then SWT from Waterloo. And I believe that's why the faily First Great Western service out of Brighton is popular.

Have you heard of CrossCountry? Although technically you may be better of if you haven't.

 

[ushawk]

Didnt the North Downs Line run to Tonbridge before that line was 3rd railed and around the same time NSE got some shiny new Turbos and switched the service to Gatwick ?

Or am i imagining things ? The use of the NDL is for local journeys primarily, its a well used line too i believe.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Didnt the North Downs Line run to Tonbridge before that line was 3rd railed and around the same time NSE got some shiny new Turbos and switched the service to Gatwick ?

Or am i imagining things ? The use of the NDL is for local journeys primarily, its a well used line too i believe.

Indeed it did, but it could well have been 1tph to Tonbridge and 1tph to Gatwick.

 

[TEW]

Probably would have been a 1tp2h service to either destination at most. It is only in recent years that the service has gone to 2tph through to Redhill, previously it was 1tph to Gatwick and 1tph to Shalford, with 1tp2h Guildford-Redhill calling all stations. In my experience I've seen quite a few people using the services for Gatwick airport. I expect there is variation across the day though. The 0434 from Reading is primarily airport traffic I expect, I know quite a few people connect in to that service from the sleeper.

 

[OxtedL]

Gatwick and Reading are both big destinations on the NDW. I will go to Redhill if I'm going West as it's normally quite a bit cheaper than going to London, and there are buses to Redhill from here. I think a fair few do go all the way from Gatwick/Redhill to Reading.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Fact? Surely what is proceeding it makes the use of 'fact' there incorrect.

Sorry?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Deleted

 

[ValleyLines142]

Never mind, just 'The fact is I don't think' confused me, stating 'fact' but then giving an opinion.

Don't worry - all you need to look at is the last bit of the sentence.

 

[Eagle]

Never mind, just 'The fact is I don't think' confused me, stating 'fact' but then giving an opinion.

He said that (paraphrased) "it is a fact that I think X", which is true and correct. That he holds the opinion is the fact the sentence was referring to.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

He said that (paraphrased) "it is a fact that I think X", which is true and correct. That he holds the opinion is the fact the sentence was referring to.

Indeed, my bad, meant to say confused, not incorrect. Post removed either way.

 

[OxtedL]

It's surely bad practice to say 'fact is, my opinion is...', though. Leads to potential ambiguity.

Does anyone who uses FGW Brighton services have an opinion on whether or not anyone uses them from west of Southampton towards Brighton et al, ie whether they serve any purpose beyond that which Southern could provide themselves? I've seen TEW does, but I'm interested to see who else does, as people can differ greatly on this. For instance, when I use the North Downs there are sometimes half a trains worth of Gatwick passengers.

 

[ushawk]

I think the majority of the people on the FGW Brighton services boarding before Southampton continue on towards Westbury/Bristol etc - obviously if no one was using it, then it would have been withdrawn a long time ago. When i used the 08.59 Brighton - Gt Malvern just after Xmas, every seat was taken by the time we left Chichester and it was standing only after leaving Southampton - in a summary, yes they are used a lot west of Southampton.

When i worked in London for a bit, i changed at Gatwick to use the GatEx (as my train went to LBG and its easier using the GatEx to VIC than changing at ECR) there were always a lot of people getting off the Reading train (arrived at about 6.45) and also waiting for the next one.

 

[tsr]

Gatwick and Reading are both big destinations on the NDW. I will go to Redhill if I'm going West as it's normally quite a bit cheaper than going to London, and there are buses to Redhill from here. I think a fair few do go all the way from Gatwick/Redhill to Reading.

Apart from engineering work periods (when trains may run to places like Wokingham, as they do today), trains always start from/terminate at Reading, and continue to either Redhill or Gatwick Airport. Apart from during peak times, the Gatwick Airport terminators are semi-fast. Annoyingly, it's very hard to get a semi-fast train at all during the peak.

As for the combination of local/general passengers and airport passengers... from my experience of using the line (not regularly, but frequently enough at different times of the day), it is usually fairly busy, except for just after lunchtime and just before the evening peak, when it tails off a bit. The problem is that it is hard, if impossible, to predict whether or not you will have a lot of people needing to catch flights, but there are always suitcase-laden people in some quantity on the services to Gatwick. Frequent travellers are quite aware that there can be a scramble to make a late connection for a service to Gatwick if their train is a Redhill terminator, so, understandably, the Redhill terminators often have fewer airport pax.

The service is also well-used by schoolchildren and students between Redhill & Reigate, Reigate & Dorking and Wokingham & Reading. Weekend and holiday travellers probably won't notice this.

 

[Bald Rick]

Probably would have been a 1tp2h service to either destination at most. It is only in recent years that the service has gone to 2tph through to Redhill, previously it was 1tph to Gatwick and 1tph to Shalford, with 1tp2h Guildford-Redhill calling all stations. In my experience I've seen quite a few people using the services for Gatwick airport. I expect there is variation across the day though. The 0434 from Reading is primarily airport traffic I expect, I know quite a few people connect in to that service from the sleeper.

For most of the 1980s it was roughly hourly Reading-Gatwick 'fast' calling Wokingham, North Camp, Guildford, Deepdene, Redhill; plus an hourly Reading-Tonbridge that called all stations.

 

[Holly]

I still think that a non-stop service between Heathrow and Gatwick would attract people who presently don't make that journey. The existing 90 minutes on a coach (or three hours by tube) is absurd for 25 miles.

If you build it they will come. Extending to only one station at only one end (Brighton obviously) would attract more custom without unduly distorting traffic patterns.

 

[TEW]

For most of the 1980s it was roughly hourly Reading-Gatwick 'fast' calling Wokingham, North Camp, Guildford, Deepdene, Redhill; plus an hourly Reading-Tonbridge that called all stations.

Wow, the service had declined a bit then. Still worse off now I'd say, I'm sure the direct service to Tonbridge would be useful to some people.