Virgin trains to Brighton

[tsr]

It's actual use for passengers is fairly limited, it's poorly timed for a long distance journey. The morning train is mainly used simply because it's the first service to Reading.

Of course. When FGW provide most services to Reading anyway I think that's a bit transparent. But there we are.

 

[Minstral25]

I'd also say this - and yes, I've said it before - in this case, it would be nice, and probably eventually cost-effective, to completely electrify the North Downs Line and build a South<->West spur at Redhill, complete with platforms, for Intercity/XC (Brighton-Gatwick-Redhill-Reading-etc.) trains, and also any remaining FGW services. The site known as "the old Ford garage" in Redhill (despite the fact that it's still very much a functional garage!) is safeguarded for this very development, but it's never happened.

(If no extra platforms could be added on a spur at Redhill, there is land available at Reffells Bridge, under the A25 between Redhill and Reigate, which is blatantly earmarked for rail development (having read up on local records, spoken to my friends and family who, like me, live near the site, and examined local maps very closely). This is very much a digression, and I apologise!)

The key to running a successful frequent service on the Brighton Main Line and the North Downs Line would be to advertise it as a bypass of London (which, as has been pointed out, is not a city that's ideal for travellers moving between stations, even if some people, like myself, can make connections very quickly) and then make sure connections can be made to Coastway services, any services deemed crucial at Reading, and perhaps services from Kent at Redhill and Brighton. In addition, Redhill is a town that was built around the railways, but people are giving up because of fewer and fewer trains stopping there, so reintroductions of services would be able to be used as a massive marketing boost and would be great for the local economy.

If more paths are needed on the BML, why not reopen the Uckfield-Lewes? Clearly, if there is demand for more paths, and no more are available, more infrastructural capacity should really be added, because demand normally increases! Any services to and from Brighton that do not call at Gatwick Airport and Haywards Heath could be sent along this route.

Any further paths needed between Redhill and Reading would need to be added with the Wokingham resignalling (let's face it, even if my suggestions were put into action, it wouldn't be before that's done) and the further platform(s) at Reigate, one of which is planned. A consolidation of Dorking Deepdene and Dorking Main, with additional platforms on the North Downs Line, would be a good thing, in my opinion, and would reduce confusion. The old chord that I believe was in place could be reinstated, but North<->East instead. Since there are so few services calling at Betchworth, Dorking West, etc., these shouldn't be stations where problems occur.

Perhaps we could also see a link from Guildford<->Heathrow, with the NDL FGW services being significantly modified to become Gatwick-Heathrow services. Perhaps even the Portsmouth Main Line could link to Heathrow... I fantasise!

As someone who lives a short walk from Reffels Bridge I'd like to see a new station there but I think it is unlikely.

Redhill services will soon be 4tph London Bridge/Thameslink and 4tph to Victoria (I'm guessing that the Reigate and Tonbridge services will redirect to Victoria once the Three Bridges Thameslink trains take their existing paths - Southern have kept saying there is capacity for 4 per hour to Victoria but no stock to run the trains.

Redhill station is due to get Platform 0 in the next 5 years under the Network Rail CP5 plan - I can't see this as a benefit as really Redhill needs a platform 4 so Tonbridge/Reigate trains can split without blocking or crossing the through routes - platform 0 does not do this

Reading - Gatwick services on the North Downs can go twice hourly from 2012 when the extra platforms for Gatwick Express come online before the Olympics and as it has been a long held desire I am sure as soon as spare stock becomes available this will happen too.

Thus with all these changes afoot I can't see a new Brighton to Birmingham service appearing soon - unless someone decides to extend the Milton Keynes - South Croydon services - perhaps via Redhill as they would have to stay on the slow lines to at least Gatwick

 

[tsr]

As someone who lives a short walk from Reffels Bridge I'd like to see a new station there but I think it is unlikely.

Redhill services will soon be 4tph London Bridge/Thameslink and 4tph to Victoria (I'm guessing that the Reigate and Tonbridge services will redirect to Victoria once the Three Bridges Thameslink trains take their existing paths - Southern have kept saying there is capacity for 4 per hour to Victoria but no stock to run the trains.

Redhill station is due to get Platform 0 in the next 5 years under the Network Rail CP5 plan - I can't see this as a benefit as really Redhill needs a platform 4 so Tonbridge/Reigate trains can split without blocking or crossing the through routes - platform 0 does not do this

Reading - Gatwick services on the North Downs can go twice hourly from 2012 when the extra platforms for Gatwick Express come online before the Olympics and as it has been a long held desire I am sure as soon as spare stock becomes available this will happen too.

Thus with all these changes afoot I can't see a new Brighton to Birmingham service appearing soon - unless someone decides to extend the Milton Keynes - South Croydon services - perhaps via Redhill as they would have to stay on the slow lines to at least Gatwick

I'm pretty sure the Reigate and Tonbridge services will start and terminate at VIC, too.

I know the CP5 and Thameslink strategy mention a new platform. I don't recall the name "Platform 0", exactly, but a similar concept. I don't know exactly how this new platform will work, but all I can say is that I hope someone's planned it adequately and that it doesn't add any problems for future developments of services.

Ideally, they would have two island platforms - I guess in the station's existing location - and two South<->West spur platforms, linked by a passenger underpass, as I've said before. The chances of six platforms turning up at Redhill within the next ten years, though, are pretty slim!

 

[swt_passenger]

The idea of extending a few trains to Gatwick and or Brighton is presumably based on nothing more than a belief that as it used to happen so it should happen again. DfT, NR and the TOCs don't have a clue about service planning after all...

So which existing services should be cancelled to provide the stock. The Southampton extensions maybe? But hang on, they are already full of passengers to/from Southampton.

Maybe they should cut back a few Newcastle services, or stop running to Glasgow... :roll:

 

[DarloRich]

There is no way in the workd that papcers will be withdrawn within 8 years. To do that orders need to be placed now for a replacement unit.

They will be here for a long time. They are like Damien - they can not be killed

 

[Clip]

There is no way in the workd that papcers will be withdrawn within 8 years. To do that orders need to be placed now for a replacement unit.

They will be here for a long time. They are like Damien - they can not be killed

Indeed, but im not sure they were wanting pacers on cross country services down to Brighton

 

[ushawk]

unless someone decides to extend the Milton Keynes - South Croydon services - perhaps via Redhill as they would have to stay on the slow lines to at least Gatwick

There wont be any chance of that until it is able to run as 8 coaches, i think Southern extending the MKC service back to Brighton would be better, but its all stations from South Croydon, unless it runs every half hour (in its normal slot and an extension to Brighton 30 mins later) - but slotting it in on the WCML, WLL and the Brighton Main Line could prove difficault.

 

[tbtc]

Im sure most places in Britain will have people needing to get to and from Gatwick everyday?

This is almost as eccentric as the "every village in Northern England needs an hourly service to Manchester Airport" logic...

Gatwick isn't as important as you think, we have other airports north of London too.

Its ridiculous how XC serves Paignton and Newquay but not Brighton.

There are hundreds of places XC doesn't serve...

Capacity? Were talkin about Brighton, Croydon, Redhill, Gatwick, Haywards Heath, Kensington, Slough, Staines, Portsmouth, maybe even Heathrow, the Croydon Tramlink, Bognor Regis, Fratton, Littlehampton. All coming to this service for Intercities

The Croydon Tramlink is getting in the way of capacity? Sorry, bit confused by this one...

To be honest, it is probably quicker going via London to get to say Birmingham or Manchester, mainly as the XC was stuck behind stoppers on the slows and was then routed via Reading, only convenience was that it was direct and was easier - ultimately people just want to get to places the quickest way possible and if thats via London, then thats the way they will go

Agreed - plus much more frequent (twenty minute service from Euston to Birmingham/Manchester, regular services from London to Brighton from both Victoria and St P)

My train bypassed 4 southern, a heatrow connect and a Wrexham and Shropshire HST??

WSMR HST? Cool

If anything the Reading to Brighton service was a bigger loss then the XC to Brighton.

Good point.

Its noticeable how SWT withdrew their Reading - Brighton service and that FGW have never applied to extend their Gatwick service to the south coast (Reading - Gatwick - Brighton). Maybe there's not the long distance demand for Brighton services? I'd like to think that there was, but the evidence suggests that there isn't (if neither SWT nor FGW have jumped in to fill the "lucrative" market from Brighton to connect with the XC network at Reading)

It seems the main argument here is that Gatwick is a big traffic generator for infrequent travellers who may not wish to use the tube to cross London for destinations Birmingham northwards. And to be fair there is some merit in this.

So how about a regular, say hourly, service from Gatwick to Reading for a simple change there to the half hourly XC service to Birmingham and destinations northwards?

Oh.

I can't see a new Brighton to Birmingham service appearing soon - unless someone decides to extend the Milton Keynes - South Croydon services - perhaps via Redhill as they would have to stay on the slow lines to at least Gatwick

This is something which I thought would eventually happen, maybe it won't now though. The increasing numbers on the WLL (esp due to the shopping centre at Shephard's Bush) suggest that there could be a future for a Birmingham - Gatwick/Brighton service (which would be slower than the current VHF services to London, but maybe competative with the time taken to do Birmingham - Gatwick/Brighton via Leamington Spa/ Reading?)... dunno

There wont be any chance of that until it is able to run as 8 coaches, i think Southern extending the MKC service back to Brighton would be better, but its all stations from South Croydon, unless it runs every half hour (in its normal slot and an extension to Brighton 30 mins later) - but slotting it in on the WCML, WLL and the Brighton Main Line could prove difficault.

The timings would be very difficult - agreed - maybe if it did happen it'd have to wait for some time to join the "main" line in either direction.

 

[ainsworth74]

This is almost as eccentric as the "every village in Northern England needs an hourly service to Manchester Airport" logic...

Indeed, I've never quite understood that especially for the North East as surely Newcastle Airport is closer and easier to get to than a 2/3 hour train journey to Manchester.

Gatwick isn't as important as you think, we have other airports north of London too.

Very true and if Newcastle, Leeds or Manchester don't fly to where you want to go then Stansted or certainly Heathrow will and personally I think Heathrow would make far more sense for someone in the North of the country or the West than Gatwick.

Gatwick is not an important destination.

 

[swt_passenger]

So how about a regular, say hourly, service from Gatwick to Reading for a simple change there to the half hourly XC service to Birmingham and destinations northwards?

Oh.

Even better, following on from the additional platform being built at Gatwick, you could even extend the Reading to Redhill services to Gatwick as well...

 

[Minstral25]

Even better, following on from the additional platform being built at Gatwick, you could even extend the Reading to Redhill services to Gatwick as well...

I think that is the plan - but you would need an extra unit to this as the current one turns round at Redhill and heads back to Reading after 4 or 9 minutes.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm pretty sure the Reigate and Tonbridge services will start and terminate at VIC, too.

I know the CP5 and Thameslink strategy mention a new platform. I don't recall the name "Platform 0", exactly, but a similar concept. I don't know exactly how this new platform will work, but all I can say is that I hope someone's planned it adequately and that it doesn't add any problems for future developments of services.

Ideally, they would have two island platforms - I guess in the station's existing location - and two South<->West spur platforms, linked by a passenger underpass, as I've said before. The chances of six platforms turning up at Redhill within the next ten years, though, are pretty slim!

Platform 0 is the plan to add an additional platform on the sidings to the west of Platform 1 - which means there are 3 platforms on the northbound side of the main line and one on the southbound side. Hence I think it is more logical to make platform 3 an Island platform by adding a platform 4 along the disused bay and the Royal mail area

Six Platforms is pretty unlikely unless they create a curve over the Ford garage and then it would be a long walk from the main station anyway

 

[TomJ93]

Why don't XC run Manchester to Brighton via Brum, Cov Leamington and Kensington Olympia? If the shuttle still ran to Earls Court they could offer slower cheaper competition to Chiltern and Virgin like a 'privatised' railway should?

 

[FenMan]

It seems the main argument here is that Gatwick is a big traffic generator for infrequent travellers who may not wish to use the tube to cross London for destinations Birmingham northwards. And to be fair there is some merit in this.

So how about a regular, say hourly, service from Gatwick to Reading for a simple change there to the half hourly XC service to Birmingham and destinations northwards?

Oh.

Quite! And well used it is too.

I completely fail to see a need for an occasional direct service from Gatwick to north of London. A twice-daily service is hardly going to be attractive to the vast majority who don't like waiting around at airports any longer than they need to.

 

[scotsman]

I thought the point of trains to Manchester Airport was to relieve capacity at Piccadilly?

 

[Eagle]

I thought the point of trains to Manchester Airport was to relieve capacity at Piccadilly?

As in, to prevent trains terminating at Piccadilly and wasting platform space, and (crucially) to provide a high-frequency service between Piccadilly and the Airport. That's the reason why TPE go to the Airport, nothing to do with this "every town needs an airport link" rubbish some people assume is the case.

 

[tsr]

I think that is the plan - but you would need an extra unit to this as the current one turns round at Redhill and heads back to Reading after 4 or 9 minutes.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---



Platform 0 is the plan to add an additional platform on the sidings to the west of Platform 1 - which means there are 3 platforms on the northbound side of the main line and one on the southbound side. Hence I think it is more logical to make platform 3 an Island platform by adding a platform 4 along the disused bay and the Royal mail area

Six Platforms is pretty unlikely unless they create a curve over the Ford garage and then it would be a long walk from the main station anyway

Considering how far passengers seem to be able to walk at stations like Kings Cross St Pancras on the LU, I don't think a subway or footbridge to the old Ford Garage site would be too much, but I take your point that it is a considerable distance. Platform 0 in its current form would be a bit lazy as developments go.

I can't see Platform 4 being used again as I don't think there is enough room, but they could feasibly rework the whole thing and put in two island platforms in the same space as all the platforms take up so far.

Thinking a bit laterally here, if the North Downs Line joined north of the station, it would mean a reversal wasn't needed, and this would provide some simplification. To achieve this, the whole station would need to be moved south, the North Downs Line moved north and the Tonbridge line's junction moved south. This will never happen, as far as I can see, but the land is probably available (just about).

 

[317666]

My experiences on First Capital Connects have been standing, sweating.
On the Great Northern route though, I think 8 cars is over the top.

In that case I suggest you try the 21:53 Kings Cross - Cambridge semi-fast on a Saturday, 4 cars and is often absolutely wedged. 8 cars certainly isn't over the top, especially on Cambridge services from my experience.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Maybe there's not the long distance demand for Brighton services? I'd like to think that there was, but the evidence suggests that there isn't (if neither SWT nor FGW have jumped in to fill the "lucrative" market from Brighton to connect with the XC network at Reading).

First Great Western operate two trains a day to Brighton though.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

First Great Western operate two trains a day to Brighton though.

I think tbtc meant to from Reading though

 

[ushawk]

Only to Bristol and Great Malvern though - think they were on about FGW extending to Brighton via Haywards Heath.

 

[Eagle]

Also, it's only 1tph each way.

Reading to Redhill is 2tph, but only the fasts go on to Gatwick.

 

[swt_passenger]

First Great Western operate two trains a day to Brighton though.

Yes - and they should stop that service as well. The units wasted on a couple of daily jaunts to Brighton (one of which starts from Portsmouth Harbour) should be used in FGW's busiest areas, such as Bristol.

Southern now provide a perfectly adequate hourly service 7 days a week between Brighton and Southampton - the FGW extensions are now an anachronism.

 

[Eagle]

Sorry, I know, see edited post. I meant from Cardiff / Bristol etc via Southampton.

It's not 1tpd though.

There are 2tpd (one diagram) to/from Brighton by FGW Monday to Saturday:

0701 PMH–BTN
0859 BTN–GMV
1050 GMV–BTN
1659 BTN–BRI

On Sundays there's 4tpd (across multiple diagrams):

0831 SOU–BTN
1008 CDF–BTN
1110 BTN–CDF
1208 CDF–BTN
1546 BTN–BRI
1635 CDF–BTN
1746 BTN–BRI
2146 BTN–PMH

 

[ValleyLines142]

Yes - and they should stop that service as well. The units wasted on a couple of daily jaunts to Brighton (one of which starts from Portsmouth Harbour) should be used in FGW's busiest areas, such as Bristol.

Southern now provide a perfectly adequate hourly service 7 days a week between Brighton and Southampton - the FGW extensions are now an anachronism.

I think its a useful service, especially on Sundays. Saves the need to change via Southampton or London.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think tbtc meant to from Reading though

Yeah, just noticed :P

 

[JamieFCC]

In that case I suggest you try the 21:53 Kings Cross - Cambridge semi-fast on a Saturday, 4 cars and is often absolutely wedged. 8 cars certainly isn't over the top, especially on Cambridge services from my experience.

travelled from kings cross to sandy 8 cars and i was the only person in my car.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This is almost as eccentric as the "every village in Northern England needs an hourly service to Manchester Airport" logic...

Gatwick isn't as important as you think, we have other airports north of London too. Just stop, Gatwick is important so quiet down please.



There are hundreds of places XC doesn't serve... Hundreds of plaes like Brighton?



The Croydon Tramlink is getting in the way of capacity? Sorry, bit confused by this one... everyday 235000 people change from tramlink to train at east/south croydon vice versa



Agreed - plus much more frequent (twenty minute service from Euston to Birmingham/Manchester, regular services from London to Brighton from both Victoria and St P)



WSMR HST? Cool



Good point.

Its noticeable how SWT withdrew their Reading - Brighton service and that FGW have never applied to extend their Gatwick service to the south coast (Reading - Gatwick - Brighton). Maybe there's not the long distance demand for Brighton services? I'd like to think that there was, but the evidence suggests that there isn't (if neither SWT nor FGW have jumped in to fill the "lucrative" market from Brighton to connect with the XC network at Reading)







This is something which I thought would eventually happen, maybe it won't now though. The increasing numbers on the WLL (esp due to the shopping centre at Shephard's Bush) suggest that there could be a future for a Birmingham - Gatwick/Brighton service (which would be slower than the current VHF services to London, but maybe competative with the time taken to do Birmingham - Gatwick/Brighton via Leamington Spa/ Reading?)... dunno



The timings would be very difficult - agreed - maybe if it did happen it'd have to wait for some time to join the "main" line in either direction.

yeeah
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Indeed, I've never quite understood that especially for the North East as surely Newcastle Airport is closer and easier to get to than a 2/3 hour train journey to Manchester.



Very true and if Newcastle, Leeds or Manchester don't fly to where you want to go then Stansted or certainly Heathrow will and personally I think Heathrow would make far more sense for someone in the North of the country or the West than Gatwick.

Gatwick is not an important destination.

GATWICK IS! plus if heathrow had a westwards curve im sure a lot of intercities would go there.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I think its really harsh everyone saying Gatwick isnt an important destination, infact its the second busiest in Britain.
Most platforms and busiest for an airport station.
Yes Heathrow is busier I get your point, but were talking about the Brighton Southern Network, Heathrow does not appear to be on that....Gatwick does, it's also busier than Stanstead so stop acting smart.

 

[Eagle]

I think its really harsh everyone saying Gatwick isnt an important destination, infact its the second busiest in Britain.
Most platforms and busiest for an airport station.
Yes Heathrow is busier I get your point, but were talking about the Brighton Southern Network, Heathrow does not appear to be on that....Gatwick does, it's also busier than Stanstead so stop acting smart.

I'm sorry, but rail passenger numbers and flows simply do not back up your assertions.

 

[tbtc]

I thought the point of trains to Manchester Airport was to relieve capacity at Piccadilly?

As in, to prevent trains terminating at Piccadilly and wasting platform space, and (crucially) to provide a high-frequency service between Piccadilly and the Airport. That's the reason why TPE go to the Airport, nothing to do with this "every town needs an airport link" rubbish some people assume is the case.

If it was just about relieving capacity at Piccadilly then why is there a stand alone Airport - Piccadilly service (on top of the other eight services an hour)?

If it was just about relieving capacity at Piccadilly then why the two services an hour from the Stalybridge line to the Airport (and back again), which mean crossing the whole throat? Why not extend terminating services from the west (e.g. Llandudno)?

First Great Western operate two trains a day to Brighton though.

I think tbtc meant to from Reading though

Yes, perhaps I should have been clearer when mentioning FGW. I've never seen any application from FGW to extend some of their Gatwick services to Brighton (despite the suggestion that it needs more longer distance services)

I think its really harsh everyone saying Gatwick isnt an important destination, infact its the second busiest in Britain.
Most platforms and busiest for an airport station.
Yes Heathrow is busier I get your point, but were talking about the Brighton Southern Network, Heathrow does not appear to be on that....Gatwick does, it's also busier than Stanstead so stop acting smart.

Gatwick is a busy/ important airport for those in that part of England, but that doesn't mean that there is demand to travel long distances within the UK to get there.

With the exception of Heathrow (which is a business airport with worldwide destinations that other UK airports cannot match), most Airports are only of regional importance - hence Gatwick having services from much of the old Southern Region but the rest of us have our own airports...

It's a bit like shopping. Meadowhall is one of the biggest shopping centres in the UK, I could claim that it has the busiest station (specifically for a shopping centre), but people from outside the region don't demand a direct service because they have their own shopping centres.

 

[yorkie]

I'm not saying Gatwick should be reconnected merely because 'it's an airport', but I just find it surprising how passenger numbers were so low. It has a link to quite a few places, such as Southampton, Portsmouth, Bognor Regis and Bedford.

But would anyone really travel on a Cross Country train to Gatwick in order to travel to Southampton, Portsmouth, Bognor Regis or Bedford?

You can discount Bedford straight away as it would be doubling back between East Croydon and Gatwick, and I think that Reading to Gatwick (via the slow lines - ouch) to Southampton/Portsmouth would be quite bizarre; only an enthusiast wanting to do eccentric routes would do that. Bognor Regis... hmm, maybe, though I can't see much demand there.

 

[ainsworth74]

travelled from kings cross to sandy 8 cars and i was the only person in my car.

So based on one journey you can confidently tell us (and the DfT and the ORR and FCC) that in fact there is only a need for 4-cars on that route?

GATWICK IS! plus if heathrow had a westwards curve im sure a lot of intercities would go there.

I really doubt that seeing as about 95% of FGWs intercity traffic is for London not Heathrow.

I think its really harsh everyone saying Gatwick isnt an important destination, infact its the second busiest in Britain.
Most platforms and busiest for an airport station.

It is also serves as a commuter station something that not many other airport stations do and what does the number of platforms have to do with anything?

Yes Heathrow is busier I get your point, but were talking about the Brighton Southern Network, Heathrow does not appear to be on that....Gatwick does

I was under the impression we were talking about the lack of XC services to Brighton and considering the possibility of them serving the airport if they were to be reintroduced? If we're not I apologise. Also Gatwick has plenty of service to/from Brighton so I'm not sure what the issue is?

it's also busier than Stanstead so stop acting smart.

Again Gatwick railway station has more than one function unlike Stansted railway station.

Also I don't act.

 

[MCR247]

There simply isn't enough paths for XC Brighton, and enough if they could be found, would it be worth making more busy XC service single sets?