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Virgin trains to Brighton

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Pumbaa

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Capacity? Were talkin about Brighton, Croydon, Redhill, Gatwick, Haywards Heath, Kensington, Slough, Staines, Portsmouth, maybe even Heathrow, the Croydon Tramlink, Bognor Regis, Fratton, Littlehampton. All coming to this service for Intercities

Slough and Staines go to Reading.
Portsmouth go to Eastleigh and Winchester.
Heathrow go via London as they always did.
All the others - I agree, vital XC links that should have been preserved, just like Leamington. Newcastle, Bristol and Birmingham pale in comparison to these destinations.
 
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ushawk

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Capacity? Were talkin about Brighton, Croydon, Redhill, Gatwick, Haywards Heath, Kensington, Slough, Staines, Portsmouth, maybe even Heathrow, the Croydon Tramlink, Bognor Regis, Fratton, Littlehampton. All coming to this service for Intercities

What does Slough, Staines, Portsmouth, Heathrow, Bognor, Fratton and Littlehampton have to do with XC to Brighton ? For XC services they would go to either -

Slough - Change at Reading
Staines - Change at Reading or go via London
Portsmouth - Change at Southampton or Winchester
Heathrow - Go via Central London
Bognor and Littlehampton - Change at Barnham and Southampton

Still all quicker than a service to Brighton.

EDIT - Pumbaa beat me :(
 

JamieFCC

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More importantly - whats all this about Brighton needing its XC services back? Brighton and exotic destinations between there and Reading were some of the least busy stations on the XC network.

;)

What are you on about?

The Newquay, Paignton, Guildford, Bournemouth, Brum-stanstead and surprisingly Cardiff werent as busy as the Brighton.
 

ushawk

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Newquay and Paignton are very busy in the Summer months because of tourists, Guildford i think may only remain for route retention (in case Basingstoke is blocked maybe) and Bournemouth services have near enough all ways been busy when ive used them.
 

JamieFCC

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To be honest, it is probably quicker going via London to get to say Birmingham or Manchester, mainly as the XC was stuck behind stoppers on the slows and was then routed via Reading, only convenience was that it was direct and was easier - ultimately people just want to get to places the quickest way possible and if thats via London, then thats the way they will go.

Victoria to Euston by tube takes about 20 mins (from arrival into Victoria), granted if theres problems on the Victoria line then it takes longer, even so the Circle/District line to Embankment and the Northern line to Euston from there doesnt take that long.

My train bypassed 4 southern, a heatrow connect and a Wrexham and Shropshire HST??
 

ValleyLines142

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What are you on about?

The Newquay, Paignton, Guildford, Bournemouth, Brum-stanstead and surprisingly Cardiff werent as busy as the Brighton.

The daily Voyager from Cardiff (1M25 0700 dep.) is absolutely packed. Its previously run to Newcastle and Edinburgh, now to Manchester, and it is so busy its untrue.
 

MidnightFlyer

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What are you on about?

The Newquay, Paignton, Guildford, Bournemouth, Brum-stanstead and surprisingly Cardiff werent as busy as the Brighton.

Yes they were, take any train for Stansted or the West Country of New St and you will see they definitely were and still are!
 

ushawk

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The XC is fast from Olympia to Reading so its irrelevant about the Heathrow Connect and Wrexham and Shropshire ran a completely different route (using 67's and Mk3 stock btw).
 

Pumbaa

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The Newquay, Paignton, Guildford, Bournemouth, Brum-stanstead and surprisingly Cardiff werent as busy as the Brighton.

Would somebody call an ambulance for me please - it would appear my sides have split.

If the Brighton service really were THAT busy, it would have a half-hourly service, not the Stansted/Leicester.
 

JamieFCC

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Newquay and Paignton are very busy in the Summer months because of tourists, Guildford i think may only remain for route retention (in case Basingstoke is blocked maybe) and Bournemouth services have near enough all ways been busy when ive used them.

Guildford used to have a Brighton service instead of going via Kensington and Croydon.
 

Minstral25

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I can remember many years back, one night going home from Crawley to Redhill and I changed at Gatwick and caught the evening Gatwick to Birmingham train which was a Virgin 220 (took a slightly longer journey home so I could try one out).

I was the only passenger all the way from Gatwick to Redhill - enjoyed that journey immensely
 

ushawk

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I think some journeys went via Redhill, so thats why some would be slow, but i think they were all on the slows north of East Croydon - not sure of the exact routing of each journey though.
 

DaveNewcastle

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it took so long though that was the problem. had to crawl along the slows through south london and round to olympia and reading. is so much quicker to just get a fast to london and change there.
It was actually quicker to take the Thameslink (as it was) to the old KingsCross Thameslink and carry on from Kings Cross, St Pancras or Euston.
It could even be quicker walking across London!

I'm not confident that journeys which left London from Paddington or Marylebone would have been quicker than the old Virgin service though.

Any more of these reminices and we should have the thread moved to the 'Trips & Nostalgia' forum!
 

Pumbaa

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I think some journeys went via Redhill, so thats why some would be slow, but i think they were all on the slows north of East Croydon - not sure of the exact routing of each journey though.

One went via Redhill, they all went slow north of Croydon to get through onto the Olympia lines. The 1422 even went via Crystal Palace/Gipsy Hill/Balham for route retention. And yes they went slow line on the GWML after crawling round the houses from Olympia to Acton.

The stopping pattern was not regularly, the service was unbalanced (am/pm) and the paths were just crap.
 

JamieFCC

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Even a local from Brighton to Reading, changing at reading for another XC.
It was just a way from getting to the south avoiding London and being more relaxed.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Also if the Guildford was extended to Redhill-Brighton, that would avoid London completely.!!
 

ushawk

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Even a local from Brighton to Reading, changing at reading for another XC.
It was just a way from getting to the south avoiding London and being more relaxed.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Also if the Guildford was extended to Redhill-Brighton, that would avoid London completely.!!

The stock from the Guildford runs goes ECS to Eastleigh via Havant and Botley i believe for route knowledge so theres no chance of it going to Brighton.

If anything the Reading to Brighton service was a bigger loss then the XC to Brighton.
 

JamieFCC

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The stock from the Guildford runs goes ECS to Eastleigh via Havant and Botley i believe for route knowledge so theres no chance of it going to Brighton.

If anything the Reading to Brighton service was a bigger loss then the XC to Brighton.

No its goes Via Wokingham and Ash so for it to govia dorking west to Redhill, the train could then carry on, though that means East Croydon And Kensington Olympia wouldnt be called at.
 

ushawk

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Yeah, it runs via Wokingham to get to Guildford, where the stock goes OOU and runs ECS to Eastleigh.
 

Bald Rick

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It seems the main argument here is that Gatwick is a big traffic generator for infrequent travellers who may not wish to use the tube to cross London for destinations Birmingham northwards. And to be fair there is some merit in this.

So how about a regular, say hourly, service from Gatwick to Reading for a simple change there to the half hourly XC service to Birmingham and destinations northwards?

Oh.
 

Swr28

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Was always quite nice to sit on a comfortable train (47+coaches at the time) and make a connection at Reading. Time wise wasn't great but made a change from the 158 via Southampton and Bristol and certainly better than crossing London.

Ian

And ive fond memories of when VXC ran to Ramsgate with a deltic :D

Could also mention many other areas Blackpool, Southport, and Liverpool.
 

150222

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At the end of the day it all comes down to paths. There are NO spare paths for a XC service to Brighton. End of!
 

Southern

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Out of the three times I used this service, it was only busy once and switched DS to DF at Balham. As has been said, what is really needed is 4tph from Victoria - Brighton. Unfortunately, the proposals were rejected by the ORR amid fears that this change would affect performance. There were also those who opposed the service, one of them being (surprise, surprise ;)) FCC, the other the East Sussex Rail Alliance. The latter (apparently unaware that this has been the case for years :roll: ) didn't want East/West Coastway services waiting at Haywards Heath for nearly 10 minutes for the service to overtake. They also had this to say:

“We are delighted that the Rail Regulator has restored some sanity to the planning framework for rail services to the East and West Sussex. Brighton has faster, cheaper services to/from London with significant spare capacity in comparison to the East and West Coastway services which are sharing over-crowded trains, on which passengers are paying higher fares and having to stand for most of the journey.”

Do these people actually use the train? On a regular basis? Ignoring the peak, I'm trying to think what they can mean by "standing for most of the journey." Apart from North of Gatwick, Off-Peak has never seemed rammed from the times I've used the Coastway service coming to/from London. The "significant spare capacity" on the Brighton services is also something that has so far alluded me, and no doubt, many others as well.
 

NSE

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My route was Victoria to Kings Cross. Took 34 mins plus 8 mins to wait for my East coast to Aviemore.
And whats all this about Leamington. Yes it stops, but its one of the least busy stations on the trainline.

Rubbish! With a massive camping rucksack- off my 442 at Vic, to boarding my 365 at Kings Cross, a mere 13 minutes. Granted I was still out of breath by the time I arrived in St. Neots, but that means at a steady pace one can easily make it between the two in 20 minutes.
 

tsr

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Newquay and Paignton are very busy in the Summer months because of tourists, Guildford i think may only remain for route retention (in case Basingstoke is blocked maybe) and Bournemouth services have near enough all ways been busy when ive used them.

Guildford is retained for precisely this purpose, as demonstrated a few weeks back to due to a combination of an incident at Haslemere and something else.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
As has been said, what is really needed is 4tph from Victoria - Brighton. Unfortunately, the proposals were rejected by the ORR amid fears that this change would affect performance. There were also those who opposed the service, one of them being (surprise, surprise ;)) FCC, the other the East Sussex Rail Alliance. The latter (apparently unaware that this has been the case for years :roll: ) didn't want East/West Coastway services waiting at Haywards Heath for nearly 10 minutes for the service to overtake. They also had this to say:

“We are delighted that the Rail Regulator has restored some sanity to the planning framework for rail services to the East and West Sussex. Brighton has faster, cheaper services to/from London with significant spare capacity in comparison to the East and West Coastway services which are sharing over-crowded trains, on which passengers are paying higher fares and having to stand for most of the journey.”

Do these people actually use the train? On a regular basis? Ignoring the peak, I'm trying to think what they can mean by "standing for most of the journey." Apart from North of Gatwick, Off-Peak has never seemed rammed from the times I've used the Coastway service coming to/from London. The "significant spare capacity" on the Brighton services is also something that has so far alluded me, and no doubt, many others as well.

I pretty much completely agree with what you say.

I'd also say this - and yes, I've said it before - in this case, it would be nice, and probably eventually cost-effective, to completely electrify the North Downs Line and build a South<->West spur at Redhill, complete with platforms, for Intercity/XC (Brighton-Gatwick-Redhill-Reading-etc.) trains, and also any remaining FGW services. The site known as "the old Ford garage" in Redhill (despite the fact that it's still very much a functional garage!) is safeguarded for this very development, but it's never happened.

(If no extra platforms could be added on a spur at Redhill, there is land available at Reffells Bridge, under the A25 between Redhill and Reigate, which is blatantly earmarked for rail development (having read up on local records, spoken to my friends and family who, like me, live near the site, and examined local maps very closely). This is very much a digression, and I apologise!)

The key to running a successful frequent service on the Brighton Main Line and the North Downs Line would be to advertise it as a bypass of London (which, as has been pointed out, is not a city that's ideal for travellers moving between stations, even if some people, like myself, can make connections very quickly) and then make sure connections can be made to Coastway services, any services deemed crucial at Reading, and perhaps services from Kent at Redhill and Brighton. In addition, Redhill is a town that was built around the railways, but people are giving up because of fewer and fewer trains stopping there, so reintroductions of services would be able to be used as a massive marketing boost and would be great for the local economy.

If more paths are needed on the BML, why not reopen the Uckfield-Lewes? Clearly, if there is demand for more paths, and no more are available, more infrastructural capacity should really be added, because demand normally increases! Any services to and from Brighton that do not call at Gatwick Airport and Haywards Heath could be sent along this route.

Any further paths needed between Redhill and Reading would need to be added with the Wokingham resignalling (let's face it, even if my suggestions were put into action, it wouldn't be before that's done) and the further platform(s) at Reigate, one of which is planned. A consolidation of Dorking Deepdene and Dorking Main, with additional platforms on the North Downs Line, would be a good thing, in my opinion, and would reduce confusion. The old chord that I believe was in place could be reinstated, but North<->East instead. Since there are so few services calling at Betchworth, Dorking West, etc., these shouldn't be stations where problems occur.

Perhaps we could also see a link from Guildford<->Heathrow, with the NDL FGW services being significantly modified to become Gatwick-Heathrow services. Perhaps even the Portsmouth Main Line could link to Heathrow... I fantasise! ;)
 

TEW

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Guildford is retained for precisely this purpose, as demonstrated a few weeks back to due to a combination of an incident at Haslemere and something else.

It's actual use for passengers is fairly limited, it's poorly timed for a long distance journey. The morning train is mainly used simply because it's the first service to Reading.
 
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