2x zonal tickets instead of season?

[pdq]

Sorry if this is an obvious question or if it's been answered before!

I currently have an annual season ticket for Batley - Manchester which, at current prices, is £2388 per year.

I'm confused by NRCoC section 19, and which of 19a and 19c takes precedence.
You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire journey and one of the following applies:
(a) they are both Zonal Tickets
(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport
executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not.

Does this mean I can, or cannot use the following annual tickets:

• WY Metro card zones 2-5 £900
• Manchester System One County Card £950.

In addition, some other questions...

• Is the Manchester County Card 'zonal'?
• If so, does it butt up to the West Yorks zone, or is there a black hole (or Standedge tunnel) between the two?
• Ultimately, is this a valid combination for my journey?

Thanks in advance.
Gary

 

[northwichcat]

The problem is you aren't covered between the last station in Yorkshire the train stops at and the first station in Greater Manchester the train calls at.

If you changed to a TPE service which doesn't call at Stalybridge then the GM ticket won't be valid for any of your journey as the first station in GM the train will call at is Manchester Piccadilly.

If you use the Huddersfield-Victoria stopper then you'd still need an additional ticket for Greenfield to Marsden, which is one of the most expensive tickets on the Northern network.

 

[pdq]

So the Standedge tunnel really is a zonal black hole then!

 

[Dewedin]

Metro's publicity shows Zone 5 extending beyond Marsden to (presumably) the county boundary. Likewise, the ticketing boundary on GMPTE's publicity is shown as extending beyond Greenfield. So the publicity, although ambiguous, would seem to support that the boundaries meet. I would expect a hard time with this combination though unless you get written approval from the TOC concerned.

 

[northwichcat]

Metro's publicity shows Zone 5 extending beyond Marsden to (presumably) the county boundary. Likewise, the ticketing boundary on GMPTE's publicity is shown as extending beyond Greenfield. So the publicity, although ambiguous, would seem to support that the boundaries meet. I would expect a hard time with this combination though unless you get written approval from the TOC concerned.

Unless the slow Huddersfield-Victoria stopper is used neither Marsden or Greenfield are calling points.

National Rail shows a Huddersfield-Manchester season ticket restricted to certain journeys costing £131 a month next year. This ticket has the following restrictions:
First Transpennine Express offers discounted Season Tickets for travel on earlier trains. Travel between Huddersfield/Dewsbury/Leeds and Manchester Piccadilly for those passengers who can arrive at Manchester before 0730. The return journey must depart between 1000 and 1600, or after 1830. Ask at the booking office for more details and price.

I know for most people that's not a suitable combination but without knowing the times the original poster travels at it's not impossible that it might be of use.

 

[Dewedin]

My point is if the zone boundaries meet then it doesn't matter where the train stops, the combination would be valid for the through journey. I'm going to ask FTPE on Facebook what they think, but I think I know what the answer will be. It will be interesting to see how they justify it.

 

[pdq]

My usual trains are
7:26 BTL - DEW; 7:34 DEW - MAN (sometimes ½ hr later)
16:56 MAN - DEW; 17:46 DEW - BTL (sometimes ½ hr earlier)

so the early ticket's not an option.

Am I right in thinking that NRCoC 19a probably refers to two zonal tickets within the same area (like a London 1-2 and and London 3-4 making 1-4) rather than two separate zonal areas butting up to each other, which is what's excluded in 19c?

I think I'm talking myself out of this - sometimes the process of writing it down clears the mind! I might ask the TPE guard sometime.

 

[northwichcat]

My point is if the zone boundaries meet then it doesn't matter where the train stops, the combination would be valid for the through journey.

Countycard is valid on all local train services and most buses within Greater Manchester
http://www.tfgm.com/journey_planning/tickets_rail.cfm?submenuheader=1

Marsden is in West Yorkshire and is in the grey area on the map you posted a link to (the white area shows Greater Manchester.) Also, Marsden is only shown on the line out of Victoria (even though it's the same line as the line out of Piccadilly.)

 

[pdq]

Countycard is valid on all local train services and most buses within Greater Manchester)

I wonder if 'local' is a key word here...

 

[northwichcat]

Am I right in thinking that NRCoC 19a probably refers to two zonal tickets within the same area (like a London 1-2 and and London 3-4 making 1-4) rather than two separate zonal areas butting up to each other, which is what's excluded in 19c?

Certain PTE tickets do extend outside of the PTE boundary but AKAIK only ever in to a non-PTE area which is why the TfGM ticket covers Warrington Central but not Warrington Bank Quay. To get between Manchester and Warrington Central you go between Greater Manchester and Cheshire but to get between Manchester and Warrington Bank Quay you briefly enter Merseyside.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I wonder if 'local' is a key word here...

Or it could be a mistake and mean 'local journeys.'

 

[Dewedin]

The're not zonal tickets though, the're PTE tickets.

Similar reasons why i can't split ticket to Blackpool at Blackrod unless my train calls there, because my 'season ticket' is a TfGM County Card.

NRCOC:

19. Using a combination of tickets
You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire journey and one of the following applies:
(a) they are both Zonal Tickets (unless special conditions prohibit their use);
(b) the train you are in calls at a station where you change from one ticket to another; or
(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not.

We're not talking about the exclusion for (c) here, we're talking about using 19(a).

NRCOC Appendix A:

(r) “Zonal Tickets” are those tickets which permit travel only within a defined area.

Not apparently excluding PTE products.

Countycard is valid on all local train services and most buses within Greater Manchester
http://www.tfgm.com/journey_planning/tickets_rail.cfm?submenuheader=1

Marsden is in West Yorkshire and is in the grey area on the map you posted a link to (the white area shows Greater Manchester.) Also, Marsden is only shown on the line out of Victoria (even though it's the same line as the line out of Piccadilly.)

I'm not saying Marsden is within the GMPTE ticketing area, I'm saying the GMPTE ticketing area extends beyond Greenfield and meets the WYPTE boundary at Standedge. Therefore, both zonal tickets cover the entire journey.

 

[tony_mac]

The're not zonal tickets though, the're PTE tickets.

They are still zonal tickets as long as they are defined by an area, and not by a route.

“Zonal Tickets” are those tickets which permit travel only within a defined
area.

Am I right in thinking that NRCoC 19a probably refers to two zonal tickets within the same area (like a London 1-2 and and London 3-4 making 1-4) rather than two separate zonal areas butting up to each other, which is what's excluded in 19c?

I am pretty sure that is what it is supposed to mean, but it hasn't been specifically worded to say that.

I recall that the PTE boundaries do meet there for bus journeys.
I would say that there is no absolutely compelling reason to assume that they don't also meet on the train, but unlike the bus, there is no stop at the boundary.
I doubt it would be accepted as valid.

 

[sheff1]

West Yorkshire and South Yorkshire PTEs have an arrangement whereby the boundary stations are considered to be in both West Yorks & South Yorks. A combination of the respective Zonal tickets are therefore valid for through journeys.

In the absence of such arrangements with Greater Manchester, it would appear the combination is not valid. It would be worthwhile contacting the PTEs though, to seek definitive advice.

 

[Dewedin]

I don't see why the zones have to meet at a station. Last time I asked Metro where their Metrocard boundary was, they said ask NRES...

 

[sheff1]

I don't see why the zones have to meet at a station.

They don't, but the WYorks/SYorks arrangement makes it totally clear that there is no gap between the zones. With the WYorks/GM boundary things are not so clear.

Last time I asked Metro where their Metrocard boundary was, they said ask NRES...

Surpised at that. Did you ask NRES?

 

[34D]

I'm not saying Marsden is within the GMPTE ticketing area, I'm saying the GMPTE ticketing area extends beyond Greenfield and meets the WYPTE boundary at Standedge. Therefore, both zonal tickets cover the entire journey.

A very interesting hypothesis, though does wypte advertise their 2-5 zonal ticket as being valid in "everywhere in west yorkshire apart from Zone 1 (only Leeds)" or "in their zones 2-5" in which case does their zone 5 end at Marsden or at the county boundary or as "between cottingley and marsden"?

Can I ask whether the cost saving is significant please?

 

[John @ home]

West Yorkshire and South Yorkshire PTEs have an arrangement whereby the boundary stations are considered to be in both West Yorks & South Yorks.

Agreed.

A combination of the respective Zonal tickets are therefore valid for through journeys.

It's valid for through journeys on Northern Trains. It seems it's not intended to be valid on the other three TOCs (EC, EMT & XC) which operate between South and West Yorkshire, but there may be some doubt whether that can be enforced because the current MetroCard conditions refer to obsolete train company names.

MetroCard Conditions of Use.

d) MetroCard may be used to pay only for the West Yorkshire element of cross boundary journey. ...
ii) Train journeys ...
Where a passenger holds two or more zonal tickets in combination or one is a rail season ticket and one is not, then the train does not need to call at the station where they change from one to the other. (Please note that these combinations of tickets do not apply to non-stopping trains operated by Virgin, GNER and Midland Mainline).

http://www.wymetro.com/TicketsAndPasses/MetroCards/6-WhenYouCanUseYourMetroCard.htm

 

[northwichcat]

Surpised at that. Did you ask NRES?

I once heard someone telling a telling a ticket office man that NRES had told him, to which his response was to not listen to them because they don't know what they're talking about.

 

[Deerfold]

The last page of:

http://www.wymetro.com/NR/rdonlyres...7-9864DAB24758/0/CrossBoundaryinfoleaflet.pdf

makes it clear that Metrocards are only valid as far as Marsden. Unfortunately.

 

[34D]

The last page of:

http://www.wymetro.com/NR/rdonlyres...7-9864DAB24758/0/CrossBoundaryinfoleaflet.pdf

makes it clear that Metrocards are only valid as far as Marsden. Unfortunately.

But this map http://www.wymetro.com/NR/rdonlyres/7D049970-140A-488E-B16A-8FBB6BE603BF/0/railnetmap.jpg shows zone 5 as including a huge area after Marsden highlighted in green, but contrast with the way that zone 7 ends abruptly at skipton.

In london (on the kings cross to yorkshire line) a zone 1-4 travelcard ends at oakleigh park. A zone 5-6 travelcard starts at the next station (new barnet) to Hadley Wood. Yes to travel kings cross to hadley wood you can use a z1-4 and a z5-6, with no suggestion that you need to buy a third ticket for the bit between. Why: because the maps show that validity goes to the edge of the zones.

I'm not saying this is right, I am saying it is a most interesting interpretation.

 

[pdq]

Just found out that I may be able to get 15% off the Metrocard which will make a zone 2-6 plus an annual season Marsden to MAN a sensible choice, as I will gain local buses. I assume there's no problem with this combination's validity.

What excess might I need on the rare occasion I use the slow Batley to Man Vic train via Hebden Bridge?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

A Walsden-Manchester Stns single/return

 

[34D]

A Walsden-Manchester Stns single/return

Is there a way (apart from permanent change of starting station) to excess the ticket to a different starting station, ie Brighouse (which will presumably have the dual route availability?

Recall that in times of disruption your ticket is likely to be announced as valid on the calder valley anyway.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

No, the only way you could do it is to buy/change to a season from a station for which both routes are valid.

In times of disruption a TOC can make arrangements for travel via a different route if they want to, if no other TOC is involved it becomes much easier to do.

 

[34D]

No, the only way you could do it is to buy/change to a season from a station for which both routes are valid.

In times of disruption a TOC can make arrangements for travel via a different route if they want to, if no other TOC is involved it becomes much easier to do.

Thanks for that. I recall a couple of years watching a NXEC guard try to excess a weekly season in this manner - he gave up after 10 mins and allowed free travel beyond the seasons validity

 

[pdq]

Season ticket prices for Marsden (MSN) to MAN are a bit confusing on NRE. There are three choices (annual prices given):

1. £1,648 "Travel is allowed by any route option shown by the Journey Planner where the journey can be made using only one ticket."
2. £1,860 "Travel must involve passing through or changing at Hebden Bridge."
3. £2,196 "Travel is allowed by any route option shown by the Journey Planner where the journey can be made using only one ticket."

Given that 1 and 3 appear to have the same restriction, and 2 is more restrictive, why the substantial differences?

 

[Lampshade]

Season ticket prices for Marsden (MSN) to MAN are a bit confusing on NRE. There are three choices (annual prices given):

1. £1,648 "Travel is allowed by any route option shown by the Journey Planner where the journey can be made using only one ticket."
2. £1,860 "Travel must involve passing through or changing at Hebden Bridge."
3. £2,196 "Travel is allowed by any route option shown by the Journey Planner where the journey can be made using only one ticket."

Given that 1 and 3 appear to have the same restriction, and 2 is more restrictive, why the substantial differences?

Direct (stopper to Victoria), Hebden Bridge (self explanatory) and Any Permitted (presumably valid to double back via Huddersfield or travel via Hebden Bridge).

 

[pdq]

That makes sense - except that my search was for MSN to MAN (ie Piccadilly) and the result is to Manchester Stations.

So is option 1 valid or not for travel on a TPE from Dewsbury to MAN when combined with a Metrocard that reaches as far as Marsden? What would be different about the ticket's wording on option 1 to option 3? Where is the difference in validity documented? I couldn't find it on NRE.

Sorry for all the questions!

 

[Lampshade]

I assume it would be, because you're going direct, not doubling back or travelling via Hebden Bridge.

 

[34D]

Could some kind person confirm the available routes for a Marsden-Manchester anytime day return please? (I'm not being lazy by not doing this myself, well I am, its just that I usually post on a mobile device hence it would be very tedious for me.

Wonder whether via Denton is included?