London North Eastern Railway (LNER) First Class service

[jon0844]

EC could have also considered having a section of first class that is declassified at off-peak/weekends, thus giving more capacity for standard tickets. That is probably as important as trying to get as much from first class passengers in the peak.

I am sure it wouldn't be too hard to have modified the carriages to have signs that could easily be changed (electronically perhaps) to signify whether it was first or standard. I am sure you could have restricted Wi-Fi too.

If they were worried about everyone rushing there to get the bigger seats, introduce another class for a small surcharge - like Eurostar had/has with Leisure Select.

I am sure there are lots of better ideas than what we've ended up with, that seems like a poor service for FC customers and has resulted in a fair few people now going standard unless they can't afford not to go FC on some super-cheap advance or other EC promotion (not what EC presumably intended).

 

[Bungle73]

Most of those suggestions are terrible imho. Having one FC service for people on some tickets, and another for people on others? FC carriages actually being FC at certain time and then not at others, but yet aren't really SC then either? It's all too complicated imo, and will just lead to passenger confusion.

 

[Butts]

Most of those suggestions are terrible imho. Having one FC service for people on some tickets, and another for people on others? FC carriages actually being FC at certain time and then not at others, but yet aren't really SC then either? It's all too complicated imo, and will just lead to passenger confusion.

Do you understand 1st class , Club Class and Economy Class on a plane ?

Instead of different sections you have different carriages - seemples

 

[Bungle73]

Do you understand 1st class , Club Class and Economy Class on a plane ?

Instead of different sections you have different carriages - seemples

Yeah, but they all are separated, and you don't get one class suddenly changing into another and then back again.

 

[YorkshireRider]

Have to agree with Bungle on this one, the ideas are a bit OTT and confusing to the passenger. The whole idea of the complementary offer was to attract passengers to upgrade from standard advance to first advance so to make your target market feel devalued by not treating them the same as every other FC passenger would be stupid and send them back to buying STD advance tickets. The offer was never really there to attract more business passengers, either the companies they work for will pay for FC on expenses or they wont, a free breakfast isnt going to make any difference.

If STD class is too over crowded and FC is quiet then the crew/guard will de classify a carriage of FC if need be.

 

[jon0844]

Aren't there any other TOCs that have a first class carriage that is declassified at certain times? Even FCC has now done this with its FC compartment on the country end of the 377/5s.

Yes, you get more leg room and space than a standard class tickets but nothing else. On an Intercity train, that usually means something. On a commuter train, it means almost nothing (as in you get sod all in FC besides a greater chance of a seat).

EC wants more FC revenue - so does it have more FC carriages? If so, what about weekends and off-peak? Does standard get to be full, while FC is carrying nothing but air? That doesn't make sense.

Eurostar clearly worked out that you could have a business class/premier offering, with the lounge access, late boarding etc - and then a leisure service that offered the first class seating (and, as it happens, some free food/drink).

Why couldn't an Intercity operator do something similar? Weekend First is one option, but it now seems rather too expensive for little more than free tea and biscuits (the last time on EC, we did upgrade but it cost £50 for two of us!)

 

[Butts]

Yeah, but they all are separated, and you don't get one class suddenly changing into another and then back again.

On a long run I would have a special Pulman Class Carriage with fewer seats, a complimentary bar and meals cooked to order. This is obviously not viable on every service but would be more competitive in respect of Airline Lounges etc.

1st Class would be separate and nowhere near the above service.

The Pulman Class would be deliberately expensive with no saver fares or railcards etc - a luxury or if you like business service.

 

[jon0844]

Have to agree with Bungle on this one, the ideas are a bit OTT and confusing to the passenger. The whole idea of the complementary offer was to attract passengers to upgrade from standard advance to first advance so to make your target market feel devalued by not treating them the same as every other FC passenger would be stupid and send them back to buying STD advance tickets. The offer was never really there to attract more business passengers, either the companies they work for will pay for FC on expenses or they wont, a free breakfast isnt going to make any difference.

I am surprised EC did this to get people to upgrade from a standard class advance ticket to a FC one. Do they have enough advance tickets, or make enough money, to do this?

And how many people on expenses are shunning the food/drink aimed at advanced passengers to go and buy the 'good stuff' from the buffet car?

If STD class is too over crowded and FC is quiet then the crew/guard will de classify a carriage of FC if need be.

I didn't know EC would do that. I know they have when a train or two before has been cancelled, but that's declassifying everything and cancelling all seat reservations (and then there's no food/drink service at all either).

Surely declassifying carriages proves that having a carriage that can be declassified at certain times by 'default' isn't such a crazy idea? Or that one FC carriage could be branded as an intermediate class, akin to leisure select or premium economy (standard). Maybe put the current FC advanced ticket holders in there instead of giving them FC?

 

[bnm]

Is adding another tier to an already complex, byzantine ticketing system really the answer?

Trains are not planes....

What about a restaurant car that is open to all, with the choice to pay for the food on offer and priority given to 1st Class ticket holders? Oh, hang on......

 

[jon0844]

What about a restaurant car that is open to all, with the choice to pay for the food on offer and priority given to 1st Class ticket holders? Oh, hang on......

Well that would make more sense, but not if the plan was to get people on std advance tickets to buy FC ones. I just find it hard to believe EC was trying to make more money from advance ticket holders, when there can't be that many tickets per train.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Is adding another tier to an already complex, byzantine ticketing system really the answer?

No.
Much as I might enjoy the choice of a 3-tier system, it would be horrendous to manage and impossible to balance supply and demand with anything resembling consistency while maintaining profitable revenues.

The two changes I do feel that would be justified are:
1. Increase the catering offer and re-introduce a charge for anything above 'light snacks'.
2. Introduce a simple 'First Upgrade' as a walk-on option on all services, weekdays as at weekends (subject to capacity available).

These allow pax who hold a Standard Class ticket the options to upgrade their seating and even to eat a full meal, while retaining a STD ticket for their business expense claims. They also allow passengers (whether on Advances, Anytimes, Seasons etc) to make an ad hoc decision to upgrade at any time.
The increased cost to the Company is nil. There is potential for the Company to increase revenue and to entice more pax from Standard Accom to First.
Increased catering stock costs should be more than offset by sales.

What about a restaurant car that is open to all, with the choice to pay for the food on offer and priority given to 1st Class ticket holders? Oh, hang on......

As we've consistently wished that EC still offered.

 

[theblackwatch]

EC's First Class doesn't appear to be very popular tonight. I'm currently travelling on the 19.33 King's Cross to Leeds which had only 15 passengers in First Class out of London, two of which alighted at Stevenage. For a Friday evening service I would have expected First Class to be reasonably busy especially in the run up to Christmas. Is nobody travelling now?

Keeping on the subject of food, I was told I could have up to 4 sandwiches, as well as crisps and some fruit - so no complaints on the portions this time, particularly as I'd not finished Christmas Dinner until 4pm. Friendly staff too.

 

[Butts]

Is adding another tier to an already complex, byzantine ticketing system really the answer?

Trains are not planes....

What about a restaurant car that is open to all, with the choice to pay for the food on offer and priority given to 1st Class ticket holders? Oh, hang on......

Not if it is an elite expensive option - when you get into hundreds no one is going to be confused (or buy it ? )

Trains are not planes - the ticketing system is far simpler on planes

I agree with your third point if my Pullman goes for a burton.....lets have top notch cuisine not a "brake brothers/3663" offering.

 

[amcluesent]

Is nobody travelling now?

Lots of 'working from home' this Friday IMHO - to get the XMas shopping in!

 

[Butts]

EC's First Class doesn't appear to be very popular tonight. I'm currently travelling on the 19.33 King's Cross to Leeds which had only 15 passengers in First Class out of London, two of which alighted at Stevenage. For a Friday evening service I would have expected First Class to be reasonably busy especially in the run up to Christmas. Is nobody travelling now?

Keeping on the subject of food, I was told I could have up to 4 sandwiches, as well as crisps and some fruit - so no complaints on the portions this time, particularly as I'd not finished Christmas Dinner until 4pm. Friendly staff too.

One drink or two ?

 

[theblackwatch]

One drink or two ?

Three so far - two teas and one alcoholic, and could have had another if I'd wanted to.

 

[Butts]

Three so far - two teas and one alcoholic, and could have had another if I'd wanted to.

Glad to hear you are availing yourself of the facilities and offerings

 

[calc7]

I'm doing KGX-EDB @ 1830 this Wednesday, EDB-KGX @ 1830 this Thursday and KGX-LDS @ 1703 this Friday. It'll be interesting to see the variation in service!

 

[Invincibles]

Not if it is an elite expensive option - when you get into hundreds no one is going to be confused (or buy it ? )

Trains are not planes - the ticketing system is far simpler on planes

I agree with your third point if my Pullman goes for a burton.....lets have top notch cuisine not a "brake brothers/3663" offering.

Is it simpler on planes?

Whenever I book flights, which I do a lot around China and to return to the UK, there are many different fare calculation codes based on yield management and at least 4 distinct categories of economy class ticket for me to choose between on the Shanghai-Dubai-Manchester. I think the number on the Chinese domestic flights varies by operator but as I use a few different airlines there it is not something I pay too much attention to.

China Southern operate an interesting premium economy, which I sometimes find myself in (despite simply selecting the cheapest available ticket at the time of booking and there being seats in normal economy) where the meals are served on plates and they are quicker to offer non alcoholic drinks than in regular economy. This idea might be interesting in the carriage closest to the buffet but without compulsory seat reservations it is hard for it to work properly.

I will have to try and get myself a trip up the ECML as it does sound like they have got the catering offer working OK. It would seem strange at this time to change it.

 

[JB1601]

EC's First Class doesn't appear to be very popular tonight. I'm currently travelling on the 19.33 King's Cross to Leeds which had only 15 passengers in First Class out of London, two of which alighted at Stevenage. For a Friday evening service I would have expected First Class to be reasonably busy especially in the run up to Christmas. Is nobody travelling now?

I've often found the penultimate weekend before Christmas is a little quieter than normal - probably because (and I include myself in this) you're much more likely to be travelling home/to family for Christmas the weekend after and so there's little point going there the weekend before too. My theory anyway - when me and my girlfriend first started spending Christmas with each other we'd go to the other set of parents the weekend before and I was always surprised how quiet it was on the weekend before Christmas.

 

[bengolding]

I travelled Kings Cross to Edinburgh last week. Intention was to get the First Anytime Return at £390 but I travelled on a cheaper First Off Peak Return at £269, which was valid on the 08:00. FC was very quiet indeed and breakfast was attentive although I was disappointed only to be offered one slice of toast despite the quiet service. Glad to be offered mushrooms but was only given the option of scrambled egg. Broke my journey at York and got a later mid-morning service where I was offered a bacon toastie. Staff were not as attentive with the tables being cleared immediately on departure from Newcastle.

On the return, I got a XC to York, with a very grumpy FC attendant and no complimentary food either. At York, I got an all-stopper EC service to the Cross. At-seat service only started after Doncaster with the hosts asking to look at every FC ticket before advising what they were entitled to. I was only given the option of 2/3/4 sandwiches plus cake and crisps. Only later did I discover that hot options were also available - annoyed that I wasn't advised of this as there were no menus on the table. Drinks cart came round once only. Overall, the service was ok but I still rate Virgin higher for consistency who I use every day, finding the hosts are more welcoming.

 

[amcluesent]

6/10 for the FC offering on a Sunday. Ham or Cheese croissant from the trolley, OJ, biscuits, water. No crisps! FC Lounge at KGX was also a bit sparse at 13:00, unfilled croissants with jam pots, fruit, biscuits, OJ, again no crisps. No cake slices anywhere.

Crimbo pressie to myself was 1 week on FC PBO-KGX so will see what that looks like until Xmas Eve and the PBO-EDB run.

 

[Butts]

6/10 for the FC offering on a Sunday. Ham or Cheese croissant from the trolley, OJ, biscuits, water. No crisps! FC Lounge at KGX was also a bit sparse at 13:00, unfilled croissants with jam pots, fruit, biscuits, OJ, again no crisps. No cake slices anywhere.

Imagine if you'd paid £269 like the poster above you for that....you'd be pig sick.

 

[jon0844]

Imagine flying first class and experiencing a bad service in the lounge and/or the plane!

If you can't offer someone paying nearly £400 a top service all the time, don't bother!

 

[amcluesent]

you'd be pig sick.

True, but EC is still ahead. Today, on my 'any permitted' ticket I did PBO-KGX on EC, KGX-CBG on FCC and CBG-PBO on Cross Country. EC were the only ones to offer anything. Plus FCC was too hot and on XC the vestibule door to FC was jammed open!

 

[Butts]

Imagine flying first class and experiencing a bad service in the lounge and/or the plane!

If you can't offer someone paying nearly £400 a top service all the time, don't bother!

Exactly this is what I have been trying to hammer home.....

What is acceptable for a cheapo 1st Advance is not when you are shelling serious money.

They are treating full fare passengers with contempt

 

[YorkshireRider]

The price of going FC on a plane is something in the region of £10,000 return to say the U.S, hardly the same. Again, anyone paying £400 in FC on EC will be very unlikley to be paying for it themselves so they will be happy with space to work and some form of catering at seat. When GNER did the mallard refurbs they went for 3 coaches of 1st class because at the time that seemed to be the way to go, in hignsight since the economic downturn it clearly wasnt the way to go so EC have gone for this business idea to put more FC advance ticket holder bums on seats, early signs suggest it may be working but only after 12-18 months of the new offer can you really gage it properly.

 

[Butts]

The price of going FC on a plane is something in the region of £10,000 return to say the U.S, hardly the same. Again, anyone paying £400 in FC on EC will be very unlikley to be paying for it themselves so they will be happy with space to work and some form of catering at seat. When GNER did the mallard refurbs they went for 3 coaches of 1st class because at the time that seemed to be the way to go, in hignsight since the economic downturn it clearly wasnt the way to go so EC have gone for this business idea to put more FC advance ticket holder bums on seats, early signs suggest it may be working but only after 12-18 months of the new offer can you really gage it properly.

If I was paying £400 I'd get the Plane relaxing and having a meal in the BA Lounge prior to departure (probably be a Gold Card Holder). Or fly from London City even easier to get to. Even Gatwick is more appealing than coughing up £400 to sit in an antiquated coach being thrown a few scraps It's amazing, have you ever wondered why there are probably more flights a day between London and Edinburgh than Trains .

 

[YorkshireRider]

Fair point and i would agree that London to Edinburgh journeys i would do the same but i say again the target market of the offer is advance tickets which are much cheaper than the plane, would a exclusive coach and better catering tempt people off the plane? Maybe a few but not enough i reckon.

 

[Butts]

Fair point and i would agree that London to Edinburgh journeys i would do the same but i say again the target market of the offer is advance tickets which are much cheaper than the plane, would a exclusive coach and better catering tempt people off the plane? Maybe a few but not enough i reckon.

I think three hours on a train (even in 1st Class) is about my limit.

Using the Scottish example once you start considering Aberdeen, Inverness or Wick only a masochist would take a train.

Being a smoker I may be biased

With regard to the special coach that was briefly discussed earlier in the thread.