The Virgin Trains railcard peak easement

[calc7]

Is now documented here:
http://traveltrade.virgintrains.co.uk/
as an item on 5th December.

 

[wintonian]

use of railcards on VT peak services
There has been some confusion on the use of railcards on Virgin Trains Services.

To clarify, customers purchasing off peak ticket types SVS/SVR, which are discounted using 16-25, Senior, Disabled Persons, HM Forces and Family & Friends Railcard, can travel on Virgin Trains services at any time.

An example of this, a customer travelling Euston to Manchester with a railcard can travel anytime with SVS/SVR.

However, if a customer starts their journey at Euston travelling to Bolton and is travelling during the peak time, an off peak ticket will not be offered using any railcard.

Separate tickets would need to be purchased between Euston-Manchester and Manchester - Bolton if a customer wants to take advantage of travelling during the peak with SVS/SVR and a valid railcard.

If a customer travels Blackpool- Euston leaving 07:00, an off peak ticket will not be offered in any retailing systems.

A separate ticket would need to be purchased between Blackpool and Preston.

This easement is not permitted for travel between Milton Keynes Central and London Euston.

Clear as mud!

What I think they are trying to say is that the origin and destination on the ticket have to stations served by Virgin (other than Milton Keynes and Euston as a pair) and natruly you have to use a Virgin train for the whole journey or until you become off-peak anyway.

Is that somewhere close?

 

[Pumbaa]

Is that somewhere close?

That seems to be it. They just don't say it clearly at all.

To clarify, customers purchasing off peak ticket types SVS/SVR, which are discounted using 16-25, Senior, Disabled Persons, HM Forces and Family & Friends Railcard, can travel on Virgin Trains services at any time.

So who's going to be the first one to give it a try?... Might try a London - Liverpool South Parkway (return not restricted) on a peak service with a railcard - see if I get threatened with a £149 SOS!

 

[AlterEgo]

Clear as mud!

What I think they are trying to say is that the origin and destination on the ticket have to stations served by Virgin (other than Milton Keynes and Euston as a pair) and natruly you have to use a Virgin train for the whole journey or until you become off-peak anyway.

Is that somewhere close?

Yes.

Manchester to Euston - fine

Liverpool to Nuneaton - fine (as long as ALL travel is made on Virgin trains)

Moorfields to Euston - not fine (not wholly Virgin trains)

 

[Pumbaa]

Which is ridiculous - especially (as I bet the Bolton ticket has no peak-return restriction either) if the ticket is completely valid for travel on that "peak" Virgin service regardless if it is railcard discounted.

 

[calc7]

Agreed - so you can't buy a Chorley - London ticket, use the return on the 17.20 from Euston and argue that your connecting journey will be off-peak anyway.

 

[AlterEgo]

That brief is actually for the travel trade, and merely wishes to tell people in the industry what tickets their retail systems will now offer.

It's not meant as a customer-facing guide to how the easement works, I don't think.

 

[calc7]

That brief is actually for the travel trade, and merely wishes to tell people in the industry what tickets their retail systems will now offer.

It's not meant as a customer-facing guide to how the easement works, I don't think.

Definitely, but I think we can use it as a fairly solid idea on how guards may deal with people previously travelling on through tickets.

I have a friend who still buys Berkswell-London YP tickets (I was challenged to find proof that it is not allowed - here it finally is) and is thus far unchallenged, that said.

 

[scotsman]

I honestly can't imagine many TMs making an issue of it, provided you start on a Virgin service. "You'll need to get a single to Bolton if you want to get there before 10am..."

 

[SS4]

Definitely, but I think we can use it as a fairly solid idea on how guards may deal with people previously travelling on through tickets.

I have a friend who still buys Berkswell-London YP tickets (I was challenged to find proof that it is not allowed - here it finally is) and is thus far unchallenged, that said.

That won't be quite so bad since he can change at BHI onto a Virgin train

 

[calc7]

That won't be quite so bad since he can change at BHI onto a Virgin train

Change at COV surely?
If you use wintonian's interpretation, and you can show intent to travel onto a LM station (or from), then he could be facing a hefty cost for a new ticket.

 

[steffo]

I can buy a off peak return from Coleshill Parkway to Lancaster anyday this week (mon -Fri) for 24.00 pounds each way (F&F railcard 1 adult + 1 child). Depart 08.32 from Coleshill

But I cannot purchase a Coleshill to Preston off peak return for the same train. (next train one hour later fare 18.80 each way)

By adding a day return from Preston to Lancaster 6.20 = Total under 44.00 - But you cannot do it.

Why oh why?

 

[calc7]

I can buy a off peak return from Coleshill Parkway to Lancaster anyday this week (mon -Fri) for 24.00 pounds each way (F&F railcard 1 adult + 1 child). Depart 08.32 from Coleshill

But I cannot purchase a Coleshill to Preston off peak return for the same train. (next train one hour later fare 18.80 each way)

By adding a day return from Preston to Lancaster 6.20 = Total under 44.00 - But you cannot do it.

Why oh why?

More generous restrictions between Lancaster and the South.
See the other thread on Shotton to London - similar idea.

 

[Daz28]

Can I just confirm that Virgin Trains are recommending that passengers affected by this restriction should use split tickets?

Could be useful next time they argue that split tickets deprive them of revenue.

 

[yorkie]

To those who have found a way round it: I don't think any guards are going to be enforcing this anyway, but publicising the method is not in our interests!

Can I just confirm that Virgin Trains are recommending that passengers affected by this restriction should use split tickets?

Yes they are

Could be useful next time they argue that split tickets deprive them of revenue.

If they ever do. Some TOCs have clearly been asking for ATOC to moan about split tickets and ask the DfT to ban them somehow. But I do not know if Virgin is among those TOCs.

 

[calc7]

I would guess they haven't - my reckoning that they probably get more from a Preston - London ticket than a Blackpool - London one.

 

[General Zod]

Does the same rule apply if your journey begins on another TOCs line ? For example could one use a railcard discounted High Wycombe (HWY) - Glasgow Central ( via London Euston) Off Peak ticket departing High Wycombe at 6am on a weekday ? If you apply Virgin's logic then you will have to buy a separate HWY to London Euston ticket.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The easement is for travel on Virgin Trains only, so yes, you'd need split tickets to travel out of Euston before 0905.

 

[Pumbaa]

Which is (in my opinion) inherently unfair as they are not adhering to the restrictions of the ticket that is otherwise sold.

Especially when you consider that split tickets are not always going to be cheaper.

 

[AlterEgo]

Which is (in my opinion) inherently unfair as they are not adhering to the restrictions of the ticket that is otherwise sold.

Especially when you consider that split tickets are not always going to be cheaper.

How is it inherently unfair?

Unfair to the customer?

 

[cuccir]

I've generally less problem with TOCs having somewhat odd/restrictive restrictions on easements or offers which are extra to what is normally allowed.

This is one case, however, would still benefit from clearer documentation and terms and conditions so that passengers could make full use of it.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Which is (in my opinion) inherently unfair as they are not adhering to the restrictions of the ticket that is otherwise sold....

An easement is unfair? Well, that'll be a quick way to get the it removed completely.

....Especially when you consider that split tickets are not always going to be cheaper.

That would surely only be the minority of cases though.

Using the High Wycombe-Glagow Central example, a split fare would probably be £97.70 (depending on return time), a through ticket would be £213.85.

If split tickets were cheaper than the through discounted SVS/SVR fare, then no-one would be using the through fare anyway!

 

[Pumbaa]

An easement is unfair? Well, that'll be a quick way to get the it removed completely.

True - the clarification could be a lot better though. The easement is unfair in that it is contradictory to the other restrictions on tickets. A customer purchases a ticket with a railcard that allows (for example) return by any train, only to be told that when they are on the train Virgin have their own rule which is directly contradictory to the ticket's restrictions.

The Virgin easement (in my opinion) should be "on tickets where all travel is provide by Virgin, railcard holders holding a railcard discounted ticket can use any train" and nothing about penalising railcard holders travelling on Mossley Hill - Lichfield tickets.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

True - the clarification could be a lot better though. The easement is unfair in that it is contradictory to the other restrictions on tickets. A customer purchases a ticket with a railcard that allows (for example) return by any train, only to be told that when they are on the train Virgin have their own rule which is directly contradictory to the ticket's restrictions....

That comes across as the daftest thing I have seen for a long time. By definition, easements are contradictory to restrictions, and normally they over-ride restrictions, hence being easements, but I assume you mean they bought, for example, an Anytime Return rather than an Off Peak Return and were then told they could have had a cheaper ticket.

I can't imagine many Guards would want to get involved in that sort of discussion. Given that websites, ticket offices and telesales are all aware of the easement, I guess you are saying it is potentially unfair to those who don't know the easement and use a ticket machine at the station without having checked the fare beforehand?

....The Virgin easement (in my opinion) should be "on tickets where all travel is provide by Virgin, railcard holders holding a railcard discounted ticket can use any train" and nothing about penalising railcard holders travelling on Mossley Hill - Lichfield tickets.

What??????

Maybe I just banged my head against the wall too hard, but that is very nearly what the easement is! The only real difference is that it says specifically SVS/SVR tickets.

 

[AlterEgo]

The Virgin easement (in my opinion) should be "on tickets where all travel is provide by Virgin, railcard holders holding a railcard discounted ticket can use any train" and nothing about penalising railcard holders travelling on Mossley Hill - Lichfield tickets.

That is what the actual easement essentially says.

What you're reading in this post is a briefing for people who work in the travel trade. It is not the easement verbatim.

 

[Pumbaa]

That is what the actual easement essentially says.

What you're reading in this post is a briefing for people who work in the travel trade. It is not the easement verbatim.

My apologies to both you and HHF - especially to HHFs head. I remember the new wording of the restriction being published some time ago, but in a sleep deprived haze of long nights had skipped over the crucial difference between trade team instruction and ticket restrictions already in place.

And yes HHF those interpretations of my post are correct - again my unfinished sentences left unwittingly probably not helping.

 

[tony_mac]

I wonder what will happen when I go to Broadgreen and ask for a return from Lime St to Euston and a zero-price overdistance excess for the outward leg from Broadgreen......
(as I may wish to return at peak time).

And I wonder if Virgin staff will follow people alighting at Lime Street so that they can ask anyone getting onto a Merseyrail train to James St. for an extra £130.

The rule doesn't particularly bother me, I would rather get on an empty peak-time train and get the bus home from Lime St than end up on a packed off-peak train, but I do think it's been poorly thought out.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I wonder what will happen when I go to Broadgreen and ask for a return from Lime St to Euston and a zero-price overdistance excess for the outward leg from Broadgreen......
(as I may wish to return at peak time)....

They would be using Fastis, which should account for the easement correctly, so the answer may depend on how much the clerk knows about excess fares and how they enter the information into the system.

....And I wonder if Virgin staff will follow people alighting at Lime Street so that they can ask anyone getting onto a Merseyrail train to James St. for an extra £130....

Stranger things have happened......

....The rule doesn't particularly bother me, I would rather get on an empty peak-time train and get the bus home from Lime St than end up on a packed off-peak train, but I do think it's been poorly thought out.

Imo, it is better thought out than the previous incarnation which required people to know if the fare was set by Virgin Trains, but it is a little less useful.

 

[LexyBoy]

I would rather get on an empty peak-time train and get the bus home from Lime St than end up on a packed off-peak train

This sums up a lot of what's wrong with Virgin's (and others') pricing strategy :roll:

 

[AlterEgo]

This sums up a lot of what's wrong with Virgin's (and others') pricing strategy :roll:

So what is the solution?